Hero vs Dark Knight (vs Paladin??) DPS Calculations We all know the famous Hero vs Dark Knight video here. Since this video, I've seen it mentioned like common knowledge that DRK > Hero in terms of damage. I've been wondering, but by how much? Also, is this true in all conditions? How much did the DRK win by? All we know is Tim got 12,271,676 exp on the first eye, and 15,401,568 exp on the second eye, and got whited in both. Additionally, there were in a party of 5 with no HS. From this information, it may be able to calculate how much more damage the DRK did. This seems quite difficult to me, but may be possible. However, I'm going to make a pretty gross assumption and say that the DRK did 55% of the damage, while Hero did 45%. That is, DRK did 22.2% more damage than Hero. How much DPS do Heros and DRKs do?: I did some calculations, and I found that Hero does 1146% of their maximum range per second while self buffed, and 1356% of their maximum range per second if they have SE and SI as well. For DRKs, their DPS is 987%/s self buffed and 1274%/s with SE and SI. Spoiler: Warrior DPS calculations The basic calculation is: (%/attack) * (attacks/second) * self buffs multiplier * mastery multiplier * SI multiplier * SE multiplier Skill % multipliers and self buffs were gathered from here: https://bbb.hidden-street.net/character/adventurers Attack speed values for diff weapons and skills were gathered from here: https://ayumilovemaple.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/maplestory-attack-speed-reference/ SI multipliers are calculated from the ratio of attack speeds before and after SE multipliers were obtained from this post https://royals.ms/forum/threads/how-good-is-se.92891/ Note, mastery values are incoporated as follows. Hero and Paladin gets 60% mastery from their 2nd job. The calculation assumes your minimum range is 60% of your maximum range, and the average is in the middle. So, your max range can be multiplied by 80% to find the average damage. Dark Knights on the other hand get an additional 20% mastery from Beholder. So, they have 80% mastery and their Mastery Multiplier (average dmg) is 90%. I based this mastery affect from the following source https://royals.ms/forum/threads/sword-comparisons.20163/ Note to self: My mastery multipliers are actually higher than they should be. the true minimum range uses a more complicated feature that depends on primary stat and secondary stat. This can be found here https://ayumilovemaple.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/maplestory-formula-compilation/ . The result is, the minimum multiplier is (1+ (STR*K*.9*mastery+DEX)/(STR*K+DEX))/2. The result depends on STR and DEX, but lowers the mastery multiplier effect (e.g. 0.774 for Hero where K is 4.6, STR is 1250, DEX is 100 and 0.862 for DRK). Conclusions from calculations: Well, these numbers actually make a lot of sense to me. Hero does a lot more damage than DRK while self buffed. But, DRK benefits more from SE and SI. After this, to find out who wins it's just a matter of range. To out damage a Hero, a DRK needs to have a range that is 16% higher while self buffed, 11.67% greater with just SE, or 6.44% greater with SE and SI (1356/1274). So, it's really only a question about range. Since Tim and Nessi had SE and SI, then Nessi only needed a range of 6.44% or greater to beat this. I find this highly likely because spears have a higher STR multiplier than 2H swords. The maximum range is calculated as follows: (STR*K + DEX)*(attack)/100. Where K = 5 for spears and K = 4.6 for 2H swords. Important note: 2H swords like ST and Claymore have higher base attack than Sky Ski (6 att and 10 att difference respectively). However, spears have a higher multiplier, which means at almost all funding levels a Sky Ski will have a higher range. It's also important to factor in DEX and STR especially if the Hero is using a ST, which helps the DRK out a bit more. What were the conditions in the video?: Extremely high attack gear (60-75 attack from shoes/gloves/cape) SE and SI Gelts (+120 attack) Some of these conditions seem unrealistic for 99.9% of instances. Overall Conclusions: I think the claim that DRK > Hero should be brought into question at the very least. The conditions in the video featured extremely high attack gear, SE and SI, and Gelts. All these conditions favor DRK. High overall attack (from insane attacker gear and Gelts) lowers Hero's relative advantage of having higher base attack on Swords. SE benefits Spear Crusher more than Brandish SI benefits Ski Ski more than Stonetooth. This is not relevant here because Tim was using a Claymore, but is relevant in most practical situations. Additionally, Berserk is a passive skill that is always active, while Advanced Combo attack needs to be rebuffed every 200 seconds. Additionally, Heroes lose some damage while rebuffing. Overall, my conclusion is that Heroes beat Dark Knight in most practical situations, as often people attackers will not have SI, not have Gelts, and not have insanely high attacker gear. The important numbers are as follows: To out damage a Hero, a DRK needs to have a range that is 16% higher while self buffed, 11.67% greater with just SE, or 6.44% greater with SE and SI (1356/1274). So, it's really only a question about range. Bonus: Paladins I also included some Paladin calculations just for fun. Everyone says they are terrible but I haven't seen actual numbers like by how much. Paladins have the best single target damage with Blast, but only against ele weak targets (Pally with SE does 833%/s, 1249%/s vs ele weak, while Hero with SE does 1238%/s and DRK does 1109%). Basically, against ele weak targets in single target with only SE, you will do only slightly more than Hero and DRK (+0.8% and +12.6% respectively). In single target against ele neutral targets with SE, you will do -28% the damage of a Hero and -25% the damage of a DRK. However, in multi-target bossing situations Paladins do very poorly with Charge Blow, which I feel confident in saying even without factoring in Heaven's Hammer. Overall, Paladins will severely underperform other Warriors in multitarget situations, which is precisely where the warriors shine. Surprisingly, Paladins are the best in single target, but only against ele weak bosses. Maybe Paladins are underrated, but nah I think they are still bad. I haven't included Heaven Hammer and Armor Crash (lol the drama) into my calculations, but I don't think they will change much of why a Paladin is still inferior (lacking multitarget damage and too reliant on ele weakness).
Honestly, DRKs and Heroes seem quite tied even with SE and SI. Take the following funding as an example (note, approximated for perfect weapons, level 200, onyx apples, Hero having Dex, and 60 att from cape/shoe/glove): DRK range /Hero range = (1250*5+100)*300 / (1220*4.6+120)*306 = 1.077 meaning DRK has a 7.7% higher range. However, this difference drops to 5.0% if we repeat the calculation with a Claymore and adjusted Str/Dex). As I found earlier, with SE and SI a Hero has a 1.064 higher DPS multiplier (1356/1274). So, the DRK needs 6.4% or higher range to beat a Hero. If anything, even less than this due to rebuffing. This seems quite possible for DRK to win, as is probably why in the Tim vs Nessi video. But, to say DRK>Hero in terms of damage except in extreme levels of attack and with SE/SI being mandatory, seems quite wrong. The difference is small enough, that I would basically call Heroes and DRK equal under extreme conditions, but Heroes win at lower attack values and with no SI or no SE.
Just a question on requiring extra 6.4% range for drk to win. Didn't Tim have higher range than Nessi in that video? I heard the weapon att difference from their gears were 6+. I remember going krex with 7.8k range on my drk and whited a 8.7k hero while we both used stoppers. (Only buffs were se and si)
Their attack ranges with the chocolate is really high. Yeah the spear gets more benefits with is higher multiplier.
I can't say for certain what their ranges were. But, let's assume Tim has 10 att more from shoe/glove/cape, and 10 attack more from perf Claymore versus perf Sky Skii. Then the ratio of Nessi's range to Tim's range is calculated as follows: (STR*5+DEX)*(Nessi's attack) / (STR*4.6+DEX)*(Tim's attack) Let's also assume they both have 1250 STR and 100 DEX. Also let's say Tim's total attack is 150(sword)+70(att gear)+120(gelt) = 340, while Nessi's is 20 lower at 320. {(1250*5+100)*320} / {(1250*4.6+100)*340) = 1.0216 or Nessi has a 2.16% higher range. According to my earlier calculation that Hero outputs 6.4% more %/s from skills, than DRKs need 6.4% more range to be equal in total DPS. So, 2.16% more range is not enough. But, Nessi actually won. Hmm. Based off this, I think my calculation of 6.4% more range is not accurate and should be lower. The only reason I can think of for this is as previously observed, that Heroes have to rebuff ACA every 200 seconds and lose out on some damage. That alone doesn't sit well with me. I think my calculation might be missing something else, but I don't know what is. Note: I tried using more accurate mastery multipliers of .8622 for Hero and .7730 for Dark Knight, but that bumps the 6.4% number to 7.5%. Hmm.
Heroes also have to recast and build up their combo a few times over the course of a boss run whereas Dark Knights will deal their max damage as long as their HP is below 50%. This might explain the discrepancy. @Shiyui
First of all, I will apologise for necro-ing this thread, but I feel that the constant comments that "DrK > Hero in dps" are happening too frequently and that it is extremely misleading. I made a chart comparing the raw dps of various classes in this thread and from it, I can make the claim that Heroes are mostly stronger (without si) than DrK but under ideal situations, heroes are a tad stronger, if not equal. From my calculations, a lv 185 hero with a range of 10379-19060 or an average range of 14719.5 vs a lv 185 drk with a range of 14491-20032 (the min range will not be the displayed as 14491 bc a spear has a lower range when being swung but for spear crusher purposes, this is accurate) or an average range of 17261.5 (both on gelts, echo). The average multiplier for a hero with SE is [260 * 2 * 0.85 + (260+140) * 2 * 0.15] * 1.9 = 1,067.8 while a drk is [170 * 3 * 0.85 + (170+140) * 3 * 0.15] * 2 = 1,146 so on a per skill animation basis, hero avg dmg per brandish = 14,719.5 * (1,067.8/100) = 157,175 drk avg dmg per crusher = 17,261.5 * (1,146/100) = 197,817 but on a per second basis, since brandish takes 0.63s and crusher takes 0.81s to animate (both with si), hero dps = 157,175 / 0.63 = 249,484 Drk dps =197,817 / 0.81 = 244,219 These numbers are incredibly close and it is unfair for any of the classes to be deemed objectively stronger than the other under such circumstances. So what do I make of the above video? If the hero is supposed to be greater than DrK in raw dps, then it has to come down to the way the character was played. Here are some of the ways the hero could have dealt more damage: 1. Choosing a better position to attack from Circle 1 is a good spot for warriors in general as they can simply rush back into position whenever they are knockbacked. This is personally my favourite spot. Alternative, Heroes can take advantage of their greater vertical range of brandish by attacking from circle 2. It would allow for more knockbacks before repositioning is needed. Throughout eye 1, you can see that the hero spends significantly more time repositioning than the DrK. At eye 2, you can see that the hero chooses position instead of going a little bit left, into the sweet spot that most attackers usually take advantage of. I see no good reason in doing like how this hero did it but it might be because of being unable to attack after a set number of attacks at the same position. However, warriors can actually solve this problem by simply not using stance while at the sweet spot. The knockback from krex attacks will usually "reset" the number of attacks. Which also brings me to the point of unnecessary buffing of stance at eye 2. Stance may not be a large factor in this comparison though, since the DrK may also be using stance. Overall, it appears to me that the hero had to reposition significantly more than the DrK and I believe this can explain the discrepancy between dps. 2. Rebuffing at the right time Heroes and, in fact, any class, should only buff when eye 1 is weapon attack canceling to take advantage of that short down time. Heroes should easily be able to fill their combos back to maximum before the weapon cancel goes down. It does not appear to be the hero's fault as it can be seen that old source royals doesn't seem to display when the combo attack will finish. I hope this clears up the confusion between Hero vs Drk and I do hope if it is possible for anybody who plans to make a class 1 vs class 2 video to also include experience gained from both sides and also do a gear comparison if possible.
I always thought the Drk won not cause of charging combo, but cause spears benefit more from attack than swords and there's a lot of weapon attack in the video which is not usual in most situations. Hard to say if Geyforlife's method would change the outcome to completely favor the Hero, but he brings up good points.
Later on from when I posted this thread, I did extreme Excel calculations accounting for rebuffing, multiple gear levels (low, med, high, GOD), etc. and found the following: DRKs and Heroes are so damn close in DPS/DPM that whoever wins is completely situational. Even with Gelts, perfect gear, and SE/SI, DRKs only win by around 5% DPM. Really, considering player skill based factors like positioning, rebuffing, player error, reaction time, the difference is so small. If anything, I would say Hero > DRK because DRK only wins "in theory" with extreme, controlled conditions like this video. Also, hero require much less focus to achieve optimal DPM. But still, the diff is so small, nobody should pick either class based off word of mouth "DPS". So yeah, when people on these forums say "Drk> hero" and use this video as evidence, just tips you off they are sheep and don't know what the fk they are talking about loool
Everyone I meet in game agrees that Drk>Hero in dps for bossing even when SI isn't available and I don't know if it's cause of this video. It's strange though cause Corsair's beat NL's at Krexel, but people will defend that NL's are better overall. Here a Drk beat a Hero at Krexel and it's agreed that Drk>Hero in dps with almost no one defending the Hero's loss.
Horntail attacks much more frequently than krex with a lot 1/1 along, NL has much more.chance to avoid attack and no need to dismount/mount, with si+se sair still no better than nl in Horntail but, which is definitely opposite to situation in krexel. But worrios all have same Power Stance that ensures they do damage constantly in any boss.
There might be other factors like the mental attitude of Drk vs Hero players. Heroes know that they have almost 0 chance of dying in bosses with high natural HP and tanky attributes thanks to Power guard. Dark knights on the other hand strive to stay alive while maintaining the hp down to berserk activation level and naturally get to focus/concentrate a lot during a boss run. Majority of heroes I saw in zak/krex were multi tasking; either watching netflix or typing something on phone. They often end up wasting more time hitting the air or nothing after 100th attack on same spot. This could almost never be the case for dark knights.
Of course Corsair's have a harder time vs hard hitting bosses, but my point was that people are more willing to defend NL's and bring up their strengths if anyone were to say Corsair>NL based on their dps fight at Krexel. In a very similar instance Hero vs DrK the more annoying a boss is the more the DrK is at a disadvantage and that's not even mentioning they rely more on buffs and attack potions, but people are more readily to accept Drk>Hero dps even though it's much easier for a Corsair to out damage a NL than Drk to out damage a Hero.
