MM/BM needs a buff!

Former archer main... A mm for that. Here's what I have to say:
Do I agree that SE class need buffs? No.

I would like to clarify this once and for all now, old school maple story has always been unbalanced, STOP trying to change that.
I personally did NOT let the fact that MM's have a lower damage output than BM's in a 1v1 scenario change my decision of my main, and why is that? I appreciate the role of the underdog. I appreciate the intricacies of this game which ALLOW a choice and not have every single class do close to similar DPS. Does it make the game harder? In a sense yes, of course, but that is another issue to deal with when it comes to a feeling of accomplishment. You just, as a fellow player said,

I have never had an issue with joining any form of bossing squad as I understood my role of my class and executed it properly, people really should focus less on the class and focus more on ingame mechanics and how to improve themselves instead of complaining for buffs.

This is EXACTLY what I do not want, might as well not play an old school server then if you wanted everything to be "balanced".
Also about the muling issue, sure it can be done for simple bosses like krex. But I will tell you right off the bat it is TIRING to bring an SE mule to HT, doesn't mean the option is there people would willingly do it. Some just want more experience for themselves, if they wish to work for it, then they get to reap the benefits.
There is a fine line between closing the gap between classes like MM vs BM in the past, and even right now I'd still say MM are still in an disadvantageous spot cause OMEGALUL snipe doesnt scale, but I took pride in my class and enjoyed my time playing.
The server has been functioning for the past 6 years or so, yes its had it's ups and downs, but I'd say it's remained relatively stable. Every balance change brings it further away from its original state, PLEASE do not ruin what it is and what I treasure it to be.

 

I'll post my original comment in a form of a question.

Why not allow multi-client, but disable multi-client in boss runs/maps? This is what one of the other top 5 servers are doing. Does this not promote party play for all classes? What's the con on this? Slowing drops/exp for the elite players? Isn't that overall better for the average/majority players?

"It will be hard find party for boss runs"

No it won't, stop being greedy and invite the average player.

What are the TRUE cons of this idea?

 

"It t will be hard find party for boss runs"

Meanwhile peoplw without mules are trying to get into a boss party but the only people searching wants a trio with HS/SE/SI mules, The average joe cannot find a party because everyone wants to play with 2 people and their mules.

For me, the problem with mules is simple: People become basically a Night lord with SE, a Arch Mage with HS. It is not natural. If you want the buffs, you need someone else that has the buff with you, not your client with a mule.

It makes things harder? Yes. For people in tight time frames (I am also in this situation, cannot play most of the time) it must be hard finding a enough people for a party fast enough, but so is finding a party today if you are a class that your main advantage is your buff but everyone else is substituting you with a mule. For exemple for Zakum I still see average joes searching for players but for Krex I almost never see someone recruiting that is not also asking you to bring a mule(HS or SE).

They don't need to make it illegal. Just make it hard to stay alive without constant multiclienting until its not a good deal to bring a mule. With pets auto-HP you can pretty much stay there but if you disable pets after some inactive time the mules will die and the run will be ruined. The pet HP thing is pretty stupid if you think you can stay alive afk forever as long as you can take a hit and you have plenty of exilirs with you.

 

The only reason I have an SE mule is because of the amount of time my pq or bossing party have wasted smega-ing to look for one -- and I main a bishop, don't own an NL.

Have you spent 2 hours looking for a last archer for cwkpq? Because I have. Have you had a boss party disband because there is just no SE available for our Lord? Because I have.

No one really brings an SE mule to HT even if they have one. Krex and Zak, maybe. But it’s not even hard for archer mains to join any of these runs if they wanted to, so disabling multiclient won’t bring any benefit to them that they already do not have. In fact, archers have the lowest requirement to join boss runs of every class out there, the only requirement being having SE30.

Everybody and their grandmothers here have a bishop and HS mule. Yet I have no shortage of runs to join every time I log on my bs. If you’re finding trouble joining a party, like a previous player mentioned, you really should make some friends or join a guild.

 

since we're touching upon muling in bosses, i'd just like to say i have qutie a number of mules.

2 se mules, 2 si mules, 3 bishops, 1 hb mules and currently my paladin acts as crash mule for zak.

and yet, despite hving so many mules, the only times i actually bring them to boss is either krex or shaolin for se/si/hb/hs. for zak at max i just bring pally to speed things up. for krex n shao, the reason i bring them is because im weak. i bring them so i dun become a burden to the others n bcos i do shao duos.

as a drk, i benefit from se n si. therefore i bring si to krex when theres others benefiting from si as well. for shao, i bring se because my partner is a nl. i've literally had days where i wld dc so the nl had to solo shao since i dced. without se, i just feel bad for wasting his pots n his time. for my drk, i bring my bishop with mw20 as well so tat we down shao faster.

my other atker is a hero. for my hero, i bring se si n hs to shaolin. i also have the option of swapping one of them for a hb mule if the person im doing with needs hb. for si, i bring it because i use a claymore. claymores need si to bring out their max damage or they're just crappy. se mule is for a little damage boost for me n more importantly, for the nls that i do with. hb mule is only necessary if the other person needs it. like @WolfXLord . in that scenario, i dun bring si since he is a nl and needs se. and use my flame sword to do shao.

another place is obviously cwkpq. i dun like hving to deal with all those 2/8 mon/bonus bullshit so i bring mules so tat i at least gurantee myself a bonus slot. i also bring them bcos i dun think its right to make like 8 other ppl spam smegas just for tat 1 archer or pirate which are the 2 more rarer classes. even so, i usually only bring 2 chars

despite muling so much, i wld just like to say that it is fking annoying to bring so many mules around. i swear to god, my drk has died so many times when i rebuffed in shao. my hero is fine but i have to keep moving the mules to and fro lushan town. and yet, shaolin and krex are the 2 most easiest bosses to mule in bcos theres a safe spot. in ht or zak, even if u hv 30k hp on that mule, its not guaranteed that u wont die. its happened to me b4. my 30k hp si mule died in zak tat 1 time i brought in. at the end of the day, no one really enjoys using mules in zak/ht which are the 2 more lucrative bosses since no one really sells krex service n shao is just exp only.

EDIT: Lol i accidentally pressed post so gonna be editing from here.

 

I mained BM for quite a while and loved every second of it. The reason why I'm not playing my BM anymore is because I've already reached level 200. Never once did I feel like I was at a disadvantage due to the existence of SE mules. I honestly felt I was in the best position in terms of joining/recruiting for parties and never really had to wait when trying to boss.

On top of feeling like I was in the best position in terms of parties I also felt I was in the best place when trying to solo anything. I always felt strong and loved to challenge myself that way. Archers aren't #1 DPS but they're definitely strong.

In my circle of friends that I've had over the years I've never once witnessed the shunning of BM/MM mains in order to bring an SE mule instead. It's always such a drag to have to bring mules. Mains are preferred/welcomed. Mules are the last resort when we can't find what we're looking for.

I've made a Marksman recently and look forward to playing it once it's ready to start bossing because I've missed being in such an important and valuable role in parties. As stated multiple times before, if any archer is having problems finding parties due to the existence of SE mules then you really must have the wrong friends if they're doing this to you. Surround yourself with good people.

 

That's fair and I definitely don't doubt you at all. I must admit I am speaking from a players perspective that normally works 40 hours a week, go to school a couple of nights a week and have multiple obligations and responsibilities. This isn't to tear anyone down, I'm assuming the majority average player doesn't play 8+ hrs a day. I assume this because most thread only gets 150-300 views and the majority player base are a lot higher. Meaning most average player doesn't use forums much. Hopefully this is fair. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It does not matter what you main, the fact stands that try hards (please don't take any offense to that term) have multiple mules for bossing for their own personal gain whether it be for exp/drops/time etc. Regarding your personal experiences, have this occurred tens of times or was it just a handful of times where parties disbands because of no SE? Have this honestly happen so many times that you were frustrated enough that making an SE mule would solve it all or was it just for convenience sake? Are the time that you're smeaging during peak hours? 2-3am when the majority are dead? Or just regular hours? Regardless, my next statement tackles your personal experience.

We can disagree about the multi-client being disabled in boss runs is non-benificial to archer mains or any mains in general. I personally disagree because the real question is how many players have been deterred of maining an archer since the existence of the server due to the approval of allowing mules in boss runs? We both don't know nor have the numbers but we can agree that if this was never existed or if it was enforced, it's only logical that there would be many more archer mains, drk main, etc. Disabling multi-client in boss runs ONLY promotes party play for ALL classes, whether we disagree or not.

As far as the surrounding yourself with good people scenario, I agree. You should always support one another, but there are players who like to play in a more solo oriented play style. It's not a bad thing. Some may say "then it's their fault", well no. If there's no mules allowed in boss runs, they would be involved regardless due to the amount of man power needed for bosses.

Please don't take any of this personal, I am speaking from an average player perspective. Let's keep this civil.

 

I leeched my bloodwashed SE mule on my own. I didn’t finish it in a week. In fact, it took over a course of 6 months to get it functional with SE30. The first time it happened, I made the character and got it out of Maple Island. Then my frustration dissipated and I forgot all about it. The next time, I got it to job change. And I forgot about it again. Process continues for 6 months. You get the idea.

Even now that I have an “SE mule” added to my resume, the only time I’ve used it is when it was truly necessary. I am EXTREMELY LAZY so I absolutely will not duo client for “more split” or “more exp”. But I also do not like to sit around and whinge about things that are out of my control, so I did something about it.

The only logical thing I see in the scenario you posed is that the bossing scene will be severely crippled. There will still be a shortage, as it is now with multi-client allowed. So no, I cannot agree with you that just because multi-clienting is disabled, archers suddenly become a much more attractive class to play that solves the issue of there not being enough archer players. The only added attraction would be that archer players will never have a problem joining any party when they’re online. But wait, do archers have that problem now? :thinking:

 

Very well said. This is my discussion summed up in 1 sentence. I still think the reason for the decline of populations in main Archers is after the patch with buccanner, shadower & paladin buff. The buff have actually made buccanner very strong. I believe the reason for quitting archers is because they are overwhelmed by other class damages. (i know everyone just want to be the best player in the game, by doing highest damage.
Archers can't keep up with other class damages. so they are making high damage class with SE mule instead. There must be something wrong with the server if a lot of people are quitting main archer all a sudden. I have read some great comments and i agree with many of you. i support the idea of Do not buff archers.
But The server is made to feel like nostalgic, meaning that a party of different class and buffs training or bossing together with a group of people. 1 person (night lord) with all buffs (multi-client) soloing bosses is no different from the current real maple story right now. Although the multi-client has been using for 6 years in royals.

I suggest they should do something about multi-client or Re balance (nerf) some other classes to make archer more welcome (promote party play for all clsses)

I think they should nerf night lords / corsair. what do you guys think?

 

There are no guarantees , I have never run a game myself before.
but with some basic knowledge, i believe that it will promote more archers and bishop mains 100%. Everyone knows that support role is needed in a party. more people will main archer and bishops if 1 person can only play 1 character at a time. people will play it regardless of how much damage they do. They will feel special. An example would be 2 people trainning at himes, 1 is priest and 1 is DK. the priest will heal while dk kills the monster.

the game should rely on each other to successfully complete their objective, (training, bossing, doing party quests)
When i first joined 4 years ago, The ludi PQ can enter with 3 people. I believe this was because the server was fairly new and very low population. (hard to find people for pq). when the population has increased and can easily find people for pq. Royals changed it back requirement of 6 players to enter.(this is normal)

I believe that the multi-client thing established at the beginning is because of low population at the beginning as well, (same concept of the Ludi PQ changes).
Since the population is quite high at the moment, Royals should do something about the multi-client. Right now I only see everyone making SE mules. and this is a problem. in CWKPQ, you need a archer main to do archer room. people have trouble finding archer mains, because there are none in the server. something must be wrong, people do not quit archer for no reason.

 

I have a few things I'd like to stress in this thread .. Would like to give my own opinions and experience, talk about this thread as a whole and the things people have suggested ..

First of all, I don't agree with the concept that archers are in a disadvantage because of se mules or the existance of muling or multi clienting .. I have mained a BM since 2015 and loved every second of it. Being an archer has more pros than cons and there's no need for any drastic changes at all. Sure they might not be the strongest in terms of 1v1 pure attack situations but they are pretty damn strong in bosses that requires attention and mechanics.

I love to HT, and that is the very end boss of the server. During my time HT'ing, I have whited every part of the boss from various runs, numerous times. White from NLs that are around or above my level with around the same range or more. If you pay attention, not fall off from platforms, get back up quickly, be prompt with the dispells, you are indeed in contention for the highest dps in the run.

BM isn't a class for everyone, as they cannot attack while moving or move while attacking (which might get stale for some) and, even though there are many diversed skills, you really need a few when bossing (and you hardly train after 135 anyway, especially now with so many bosses, just doing them daily would fill up your day. So only really need to talk about bossing). For example, I've only put in points to Hurricane, SE, mastery and Maple Warrior. When bossing, I would only have 2 buffs up, SE and MW. Which also means that I'm always the first attacking after a dispel because while others are buffing up, I only use 2 quick skills.

Another great advantage is, especially over NLs which apparently people love to compare to, is that I can solo bosses on my own, mini bosses, area bosses, krex, while NLs would require either a second person for SE buff or a mule to take around with them while hunting.

I also think, due to those advantages of BM and disadvantages of NL, our damage should never be close to that of NLs. We need them to take down major bosses to provide us with better dps as much as they need us.

Now the points people raised here are against muling, multi clienting and buffing up archers. Why I want to talk about these is because people tend to throw in an idea whithout thinking what it can cause to the server. I'm not against a change, don't get me wrong. People are built to adapt to changes in environment and different situations. I'm sure, if a change is to be done, people will eventually adapt to it. But, if someone wants to suggest a change, then please at least think of what that change might bring or cause before talking about it or at least explain clearly how it can benefit the server or given class .......

Firstly, multi clienting cannot be removed as it serves many purposes. From storing items, multi tasking, farming, socialising to skill muling. I have 1 item mule, 1 potion mule, 1 scroll mule, 1 hs mule for my arch mage or while boss hunting. Other than those, I have an arch mage, a BM, a spearman and a wizard. While training on my lower levels, I tend to have another client on with my BM to keep an eye out for boss recruits or get involved in chats in my bl or guild. There are so many other uses for multi clienting that I can't think of right now but if people think only purpose of multi clienting is for skill muling, then that is, most likely, what they only do while they multi client and have no idea of what else it can be used for. Even staff multi client at all times (1 GM character, 1 legit character) which helps more for keeping the server safe and stable. This server is built upon things that you do that are only possible with multi clienting. Removing that wouldn't only cause discomfort but also remove many features of the server. I'd like to repeat it again before someone argues in all caps: Not the game, but the server.

Secondly, not allowing SE mules only in boss maps. Again, amazingly well-thought ... What boss maps exactly? Area bosses, mini bosses included? Or only krex, zak, HT? How are you planning on implementing this or is it one of those suggestions where people say "I demand this, do this." and doesn't get involved any further? How is it gonna be possible to differentiate SE mules with archer mains? Yes the thing in common for SE mules is that they all have max SE and below level 135. Then not allow all archers who are between levels of 129 and 135 (when you have max SE)? If you're not gonna allow that, then this will cause major problems for archer mains. Where they cannot get inside any boss maps like Zak or Krex or maybe even Pap. Then what happens for HT? Archers can mule there until 154. So not allow them to HT from 129 until 154? I started HT'ing when I was 14x as an attacker. Also this would only leave archers to be able to buy HTP within 9 levels. I'm so damn sure there will be a special increased price for archers in HTP services, simply because they wouldn't have a choice, and they would have to buy it before leveling up. You can also argue the difference in mules and mains is the equips but it's not that expensive to throw in a bow/overall and some more stuff (wouldn't even cost you 50m) or are new players expected to have items that are worth bills of mesos?

And this is only for HT. How are you not gonna allow any archers to go Bigfoot hunting or Anego or other mini bosses / area bosses?

SE mules are rarely a thing in HT. People only bring SE mule into HT because they can't find an archer in their guild/bl and they prefer bringing a mule over running with a random person. This applies for every boss recruit. People will always prefer either to run with friends or taking matters into their own hands. This has nothing to do with archers or other mules.

SE mules are taken to Zak mostly when peolle are duo or trio'ing. In a normal run, I've never witnessed SE muling becoming a problem. You might have, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean the entire server or even the majority has that problem. If a person is able to solo/duo/trio zak in a relatively short period of time, means they have invested enough time and effort to the game and nothing wrong with them to bring in a mule, any mule.

SE mules are mostly used in Krex. Which is a very easy boss where people have to get organised before going (unless they're solo'ing) but at the same time, they don't want to waste any time either. If an archer doesn't come by at the moment of recruiting, then they would just take a mule not to waste any time. This also goes for SI and HS mules during Krex. If you see smegas recruiting for Krex while listing the mules, that is not because they ONLY prefer mules over people who actually main the class (again if you had came accross a person who does, it doesn't mean the entire server or the majority is the same) but because they just wanna run asap and saying that would mean any class is welcome since they have everything instead of looking for hours for a specific class.

I really don't think there's a problem with SE mules or with any sort of muling for that matter.

And another change I've read here is to buff archers. In two aspects, in damage and/or hp washing.

Damage / attack buff isn't really necessary. Especially one that applies to every single archer in the game. Changes like a straight buff to mastery attack or stackable Concentrate would have a major impact on the server. Sure archer damage could be improved, at least to the point where they are 3rd 4th strongest dps, but still shouldn't be anywhere close enough to NL or Sair dps. They have their sacrifices like NL being reliant on SE and Sair having many mechanics to optimize dps, archers could be following them from a relative distance. Again, I think this buff shouldn't be a straight buff. NLs have to work for their high dps with more attack stars, Sairs with mounting/dismounting. So if you want to buff archers, then instead of suggesting a lazy straight buff, maybe suggest something like craftable arrows (like cilbi or furies for NLs) which can also be rechargable. Crafting perhaps a little easier than cilbis so the market value wouldn't be as much since archers use far more arrows than NLs use stars. This would be something that archers would have to work for to improve their damage but again only slightly. And this was just off the top off my head that I came up with while typing this out but still has more details and info than just saying "do this, buff this, disallow that"

Second portion of archer buff recommendations was HP Washing. Sure it can be improved to the point where people would say "NL costs more but has more damage while archer costs less but has less damage". I don't think this is absolutely necessary, but would be nice just for archers sake. However, increasing the added HP value upon wash would be tedious. If changed that way, what happens to the ones who washed already or worse, who are currently in the process of washing ? Expecting every single used washing point to be compensated ? Or just be like "gg mate, you washed/started washing too early"? If an increase were to be done, could be done upon job advancing which can easily be compensated later, as it was done before to everyone. But then again, I don't think it's really that necessary since it's still cheaper as a character to have a 13k HP BM with decent gear / damage than 13k HP NL with decent gear / damage.

So my point is, there must be a reason why this thread was posted here instead of the Feedback section. To have an open discussion on whatever is proposed. But all I've seen and read is, when people try to voice their own opinion, the 2 who shout louder than others take it personally and try to disprove others' opinions by trying to force theirs.

So please just respect everyone's opinions, as they might not and don't have to agree with yours. They don't have to or might not agree with what I've written here either but that's okay. I'm open to any criticism of what I say.

Overall I disagree with this thread as I don't see a problem with SE mule existance. I, in general, disagree with any balancing changes since it will never end. First archers, then DrKs hb mule/main issue and DrKs. Then other melee, then might as well mages too and we can all train/boss on our own. Who needs other people to do stuff anyway ........

 

This sounds like the main reason why you opened up this discussion. However, I personally haven't witnessed any archer mains quitting for switch over after the tri-class balance patch.

I don't think it'd be that easy to give up a class one already invested time and mesos, concernig HP washing, equips etc. It would be a different story if the archer character was around or before the 3rd job advancement but that is too early to be considered as an archer main.

Is this based on your assumption or have you done a census or survey, with substantial sample size, to back up your claim on the sudden decline of archer mains' population?

 

i belong in the family of archers and bucc.those are the only 2 classes i played in 5 years i am currently in the family of archers as i am playing only archer for the past 2 years. i litterally have connections with every single archers in seever as i am marksman myself. archers and archers bond easier. i dont just make a character and go hiding and kill monsters/boss. i actually spend time talking to invidual players of my own class

i can say i am still in the family of bucc but i cant keep up with it anymore because i dont play bucc anymore and the i dont meet them. there was only 3 bucc in server when i played bucc shoutout to Arioel and priveteer

anyway i talked to a lot of archers with alot 4th job archers with 10k+ hp quitting / restarting a higher damage class. i can provide at least 5 players name. although this may seem like a small population . i can also see a dramtic decrease in archer sizes. something must be wrong. dont u think? this is not a assumption. i think everyone can see archers are dissapearing, not just me

also some people say i do not respect other peoples opinion. they are wrong, i am reading everyones comments. one of u guys have changed my mind. i dont think mm buff anymore, rather i believe they should rebalance other classe and maybe changes to multi-client after reading replies

 

i have an archer and idk who the hell are u

 

What do you mean??????????????????????

 

I main a marksman as an attacker. I know who you are, but do you know who I am?

 

Hello! I am the super BM afk in ch5 fm and kill papu. Buff or not doesn’t bother me. I have fun with friends.

 

Spoiler: viewer discretion is advised

In all seriousness in regards to your problem and the thread itself, I, myself also has played a Bow Master all the way to 200. Like others said, many bossing parties would rather just bring a actual BM or MM instead of opening another client to mule one.

just like all the people that like to lug around a si mule, just bring a bucc instead!1!1!

In my opinion, Archers are in a really good spot at the moment with the amount of utility they bring, paired with their decent damage to any bossing expedition. I'd personally only bring a SE mule if i couldn't find a actual BM/MM to run with but hey that's just me.