MM/BM needs a buff!

I reached 200 a few months ago on my SE, and a few weeks ago I did in fact start a Shadower. Even though I am spending significant time raising that character up, I never quit my SE. In fact, I still have aspirations to reach 10k range on it, I just wanted to experience a different playstyle. I have never felt I was significantly weaker than the members of my bossing parties, and even whited multiple HT body parts on many occasions.

I love my Archer and will continue to play it for the rest of my Royals career.

 

Arent MM's one of the best mob grinding classes in the game besides mages? The one place I always thought MM's struggled was at single target. Which is what the buff to strafe was intended to help bring up somewhat. I may be wrong but im also pretty sure they're not even that far behind a BM's single target DPS as OP claims. BM's have next to no proper multi mob killing abilities other than what they got during 3rd job and those spells arent anywheres near as good as any single MM's mobbing ability so BM's should always excel in single target over MM's.

I do not agree that MM's need a buff. BM's and MM's fill unique niches. MM's are the multiple mob grinding class that has huge amounts of burst damage and access to one of the best party buffs in the game. Bowmasters are the class that excels at single target mob/boss killing which also have access to one of the best party buffs in the game. Making MM's better weakens the role that Bowmasters play. Classes need to have trade offs. Eliminating more of the weaknesses just causes further imbalance to the other classes around them, forcing buffs to be have to be added to other classes as well. Then we start to get into the zone of every class beginning to have identical damage potential and we move further and further away from nostalgia and all that jazz.

 

BM's are boring AF to play. A BM's entire existence is summed up by simply pressing hurricane for your entire existence. People wind up finding this play style boring and they mule the class to bring along the classes SE. MM's have an arsenal of abilities to use while training including some flashy single target burst spells like snipe and are IMO a lot more fun to play and powerful to grind mobs with, but an overwhelming amount of people enjoy bossing and since bossing is not the strong suit of MM's they also get muled simply for their SE ability.

You cant simply buff a MM's single target damage to be a viable bosser because then you need to buff a BM's damage because they're supposed to be the superior single target class, then we get into the Nostalgia territory and begin to go down a path of "well if we fxed this class why cant we fix this other class thats broken" territory. And then each classes identity starts to fade and everything begins to feel exactly the same, and we have a bunch of classes that all basically do the same damage.

 

Not allowing multi client SE mules to get in boss map is enough to balance archer class and make them as valuable as a nightlord. Don't need do buff damage. Also finding a solution for the hp wash crap would be awesome too, because someone who's funded sadly it's not worth going for DrK.
Leeching can be solved with the implement as party grinding spots as an alternative.
Those are the main problems of the server that makes no sense to me. I am done with forum threads

Best regards

 

I agree with this post! This is what ive been saying for weeks... Buff archers DMG!!!

 

They are already as valuable as night lords.. nls are nothing without SE so NO SE = NO NLs.

Also, how do you differentiate SE mules or SE mains to get into the boss map?

 

It is possible to differentiate SE mules you just have to remove the possibility to multi client with one... Not allowing to get into boss maps or even just remove the possibility to have one overall. It is easy to do, that is not an issue.
This has been discussed earlier in this post and it is indeed possible.

The point is to be worth to main archer class. It is weaker because as long as people have SE mules they aren't required as much.
Being an archer sucks. People rather trio or duo or w/e so they can get the most eficient %/speed run possible. So why would they need an archer main when they can have some nightlord?
Archer class doesnt need a dmg buff. They're balanced because they provide sharp eyes. But having the possibility to have a mule that gives u SE unbalances the character.
There is absolutely no point for me to main an archer.

 

Buff Beginners!!

 

First and foremost, as you can tell, I do not post at all. This thread strikes interest in me because I can relate to it and I feel strongly to voice my thoughts and input. I apologize in advance if anything I say offends anyone or if they feel it's a passive aggressive jab towards them. This is not my intent. I will keep this as civil as possible. I'd also like to say that I am NOT against multi-clienting, I am against multi-clienting in boss runs.

I think you misunderstood my statement. This is what I said.

Since you disagreed, explain how in 5 years or whenever this server was created, IF multi-clienting was not allowed in boss maps, how there would be ZERO increase in mains for ALL or MOST classes and how mules promote party play MORE compared to other real life players. It's beyond me how mules > real players = more party play. It just doesn't make sense. Would there be a shortage in boss runs? Possibly, we both don't know. These are just opinions.

I like to give examples with real life scenarios. For example, if Amazon didn't exist, would the apocalypse of big box stores occur? No, it wouldn't. That's a fact. They shut down or help the downfall for Toy's R Us, Sears, Payless, declining Macy's sales, Walmart sales, and dozens of other stores. I'm saying this to say that if muling doesn't exist in boss runs, how are you so sure that the economy as a whole would see absolutely NO increase in play for ALL classes?

I'm not against multi-clienting all together, just in bosses which I will have an input on your next quote. Also, bringing up a GM is irrelevant to the topic at hand. A GM is not better than a player at playing a game. We're all players. I understand a majority of people use multi-client, its advantageous and smart to do so, I get that.

As far as I know, another server allows it in maps that doesn't require a party to get into. In bosses or PQ's where you have to enter to get in, you can't. Notice I say PQ as well. Just like @CerealnOats said, "Everybody and their grandmothers here have a bishop and HS mule". That's the problem. Everyone here is bringing up their personal experience. My personal experience is try-hards bringing their bishop into KPQ to speed up their washed attacker with 100+ INT so they can start their low level leech. My experience is seeing "L>F NL attack PM me" "L>F NL with 9k+ damage" "L>F attackers for (enter boss) SE/HS ready". My personal experience is (when deciding what to main) "BM is kinda useless since everyone can just make a mule and bring it to most/all of the boss maps. I probably should just make an NL and do the same". I agree that SE classes should NOT be close the a NL's DPS, however how is it fair that NL's can have SE at their disposal without any regards? I'm just making an argument for bosses where it's most people's goal is to be apart of. I'm obviously not the only one that feels that support classes are getting disregarded compared to self mules.

Everyone is saying "Yeah SE mules isn't really a thing in HT". Well it's still a thing! People still do it and reap the benefits of self greed, again which is smart and advantageous to do so. But that's the problem.

I agree, I DON'T think SE class needs a buff, however there is still a problem that exists with SE mains or support classes in general.

Regarding your statement on "old school maple". Old school maple also didn't have easy access to multi-client at that time, old school maple also didn't have free NX, old school maple also didnt have an NPC that sells NX items for our convenience. This IS NOT old school maple. It's a shell of it in a form of privacy, hence private server. It's within the admin's power to change anything they see fit, but let's not get off topic and focus at the discussion at hand; figuring out a solution that promotes part play for all classes.

I don't think it's fair to expect a census. It's impossible to do it accurately with the current meta. We're talking years in the making here. I view forums like I view politics, the majority of players do NOT use or are involved in it. About 1/3 of people use forums just like 1/3 of people in America vote or involve themselves in politics. That being said, if OP were to do a poll here on forums, it would be extremely biased. A lot of people are afraid of change. The only way I see a census done accurately and unbiased as possible is if the admins were to actually make the change and record the increase/decrease of all classes in a proper time period (months).

All in all, I am truly speaking from an average players perspective. I could have kept silent but I do see mules in boss runs a problem and can understand the frustration of OP and other support classes. I have yet to see a strong argument on mules not being aloud in boss runs. I do not see it as a detriment as others perceive it to be to the server nor the economy as a whole. I could be wrong here but it seems like there are a lot of friends here agreeing with each other. I wholeheartedly would agree as well if the argument is strong and makes logical sense.

Let's keep this topic serious and continue the discussion as civil as possible!

 

I get that you may feel strongly for your cause, but it’s hard to keep a discussion going when you’re being this tunnel-visioned and can’t keep an open mind to what people are telling you.

People who are running horntail on a daily basis are telling you that it is not a thing, based on their experiences running this expedition. Yet your stand is that it is still a thing, based on . . your assumptions? Do you personally know these people? How many of them do you think are there? 5? 50? 300?

People who have made these mules you so speak of are telling you they do not lug them around every chance they got just because they can.

People who played and mained archers for years have said it is a non-issue, archers are a strong class, that they were not deterred from playing their class even with the existence of SE mules. If you can find people who play a different class, but deep down in their hearts would love to play archers, get them to speak up. Right now you really do not have anything to back your statements except your skewed logic.

This right here is the problem. You THINK that archers are useless, therefore you shall play something else. Is it actually true that they are useless? No. Anyone who does party runs will tell you that they do not think archer mains are useless. Archer mains are telling you they’ve experienced dealing most damage to various horntail parts, proving they are not as weak as most people would’ve perceived them to be.

You are right when you say that you speak from the average players’ perspective. The average player is generally quite ill-informed. They want things easy and couldn’t care less about understanding the mechanics and makings of the game. They just do what most people do because that way you won’t go wrong. There IS a meta. There IS a winning formula. Not everyone follows it and that’s alright too.

 

You are understanding me wrong. This isn't simply for SE mules. This is for ALL classes.

What are you talking about? People are also telling me the latter. How am I being tunnel-visioned on something that isn't even one sided? This discussion is made for a reason.

Those same people are also saying they DO bring in the mules at their convenience.

Again, you're talking about a handful of people here on forums. How are you so sure there won't be even MORE mains for ALL classes if mules weren't aloud in boss runs. I just want that answer. Why is it such a detriment to the server if mules were abolished from bosses.

I'm not saying they're archers are completely usesless, I'm implying that everyone can use them as mules at their disposable which creates a less party play oriented server. Is this wrong? I'm fighting for more party play and less mules all around for boss runs. Why is that so bad?

This thread from @Shnang and the comment from @Venin describes it perfectly.
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/the-six-man-party-syndrome.138678/

Out of all the classes, people tend to choose the strongest / most balanced characters.

Have anyone played Croosade pre BB at it's peak when they were rank 2 below royals?
NL's were no longer the end game character. Arans were revamped and now you have something to choose other than NL's.
It's no secret NL's are kings at the moment especially how easy it is to bring mules into their boss runs.

I don't see how fighting against mules in boss runs and promoting a more party play oriented server makes it easier for the "ill-informed".

We can agree to disagree. There's not point arguing a disagreement. I still don't see a strong argument for banning mules for boss runs that would negatively impact party play as a whole.

 

Hi don't get me wrong. My general stance is against the buffing of archers. I prefer a balance that is spread out and not class specific.

 

And I agree wholeheartedly. If you looked at previous posts, I am not pushing for archer buffs. I am merely pushing for less mules in boss runs and more party play with actual players. I know OP is suggesting a buff, but instead of a buff, let's go to the source and fix the problem for ALL/MOST classes. I am simply suggesting a solution and have yet to find a valid opposing argument that this solution would negativity impact the server as a whole and NOT just certain groups of players..

 

Apologies for talking about another server. I genuinely did not know that. Lesson learned.

I would be but they are no longer pre BB.

And yes, this it NOT just for SE. All mules banned from multi-clienting in any area that requires a party to get into, including PQ's.

 

The big problem with mules is that this basically becomes like those rebirth servers where you can be a NL with SE/HB/HS/Combo Attack etc... It is not normal and its not nostalgic.

The whole archer thing it would only solve the "substitutable" problem. I don't think people want BM and MM being high damage classes, they never were. They are a strong support class. SE is a game changing buff and should not be at hands of a night lord that has a mule for it. People asking for more damage is simply to make justifiable to just invest on their SE mules and ditch the NL part. They just want to be better than NL to end this mule story.

Of course, implementing things to discourage that is impossible/very hard. People already invested money on their mules. People are used to use mules. Myself for exemple I got tired of asking for HS in big foot and now I'm just login in on my bish to get the HS buff before finishing it. Since its solo play it is not as bad but if I were a NL with a SE mule I would just use my mule and recruit other NL with HS and go solo some boss for more xp/money.

I know its a hustle to find the buff for your run and it can slow things down, but thats the point. You have to ask for SE so people feel validated. I am not a archer main so I cannot say if I'm validated or not, but from what I see its pretty common for someone going"I got a SE mule let me just log in" on a zakum run.

I don't even know if banning mules would solve the problem. What do archers want anyway? More search for them in parties or to outdamge NLs? Because I don't think they were not supposed to outdamage NL in the original game, but were supposed to be highly searched for boss runs. Same thing with Bishops and DrKs, their buffs are their values, if you can outsource the buff the class becomes redundant.

 

Such a move is going to devastate the market and books pricing will come to a new equilibrium. The need for multiclienting is for us adults to accomplish something quick because we are limited by time. Removing such will simply have us smega-ing from morning to afternoons finding a Drk or SE or experienced bishop to join runs. Runs will occur or complete less frequently. People run on mules to avoid DCs and save mesos from smega-ing. Yes you hear me right. Like for me personally, I tend to duo client because I have problem trusting other people's connection or gfx issues and also to benefit my party by dividing the splits with 1 or 2 less players, giving us potentially better rewards. I have quad trio and duo client throughout my days in royals. It definitely is a hassle. It is troublesome. It is also risky. But that really depends how much a person values the risk vs reward or even effort input vs output or something of that sort.

Iono I just like multi clienting to save time. Not necessarily energy, but time.

 

I completely agrees its good and it saves time. as I said I also use mules to get the buff I was not supposed to have. But do you undestand that by saving time and getting better splits you are also diminishing the value of classes that their main purpose is to buff? And that is maybe contributing to everyone just wanting to create NL with mules because that how the meta goes?

Thats the problem. We either accept it since its just handy to have mules or we try to take this out in order to increase the importance of classes that relie their value on buffs and not dps.