Suggestion to make DrKs more relevant (DrKs have been buffed, irrelevant post)

looking a the suggestions
increasing the drk damage, while making drks survivability the same as heros and paladins, while buffing HB would just make heroes and paladins obsolete
(its almost like asking for NLs to be able to have their own SE)

the place that drks have in the game is pretty much a support, semi DPS class with close range mobbing (quite nice to have in bosses that summons tons of trash)
its a sacrifice of damage for more utility, so buffing the class should be targeting the shenanigans from berserk making the class extremely hard to play as a DPS for the bosses like auf haven
heroes and paladins are currently playing the roles of DPS, mob control and damage support, and they hardly have any party buffing abilities, so changing the absolute DPS of drks would be pretty broken without a full DPS buff to all warriors classes

as for HB having hardly any place in the bossing scene
i would say its not a matter of game mechanics, but rather the server's attitude towards survivability
if APR was not tradable, washing a character would take too much time
i'm pretty sure if that happened in the past, HB in its current state would be extremely valuable
changing HB just for the server's current meta game state, would not change the stance on HP washing causing HB to be "irrelevant"
making HB add additional effects like stackable weapon attack would create the rise of HB mules

 

I am not a DK pro, and running a Hero since 2014. From what I remember in GMS v 0.2x ~ v.99+- that HB was useful as long as hp washing wasn't involved to its limits.
and 20k+ players still need HB. Having 30k hp does require a change in pet auto pot mechanics but it saves you many power elixirs allowing you bossing all day long with no repot = more exp for your time.
I am aware of some bosses hitting more than 15k (the max hp a drk has to be max efficient damage wise):

- one possible solution is to increase drk max hp by 10k, with 40k max hp after wash 50% is 20k improving drk DPS and sustainability on some bosses.
- or you can view it as "Elemental weakness" type of thing. Some monsters and bosses are naturally resistant to certain elements, causing other classes (pally/mages) to do less damage. Drk is not limited from attacking the boss, the boss has an upper hand damage skill that make even the mighty drk avoid going below certain % of Hp, thus revoking them from using Zerk.

However treated in the future, I would like to see all classes being relevant. If skill re-balance is required, an in-depth research should be done on this topic.
The way I see it being done is putting a perfect gear for each class, all level 200, then slay the whole list of bosses and see what % of the list's length is relevant to each class.

 

The idea behind it is very likable. Having the damage increase in a linear scale gradually is best fit solution so far.

Leaving Drks with an ultimate - Don't wanna die at certain bosses? don't be damage greedy but here's a boost .

 

Is zerking at auf really a mission-impossible? I feel like it's doable if there's a proper, full squad that can pin/control auf in a fixed position. I'll get back to this thread after I experiment it.

 

I don't think trying to control auf is even worth it, unless you got triple hsh like for bga. It seems much easier to just let it run free and rotate on the middle platforms.

Even with all the care in the world, an unlucky sed while zerking can finish you off, taking 20k damge during sed isnt uncommon in my experience.

 

but if it moves too far in the -> direction, you are forced to att from left side which leaves you vulnerable to its touch damage during sed

 

You actually don't fall at all during sed for some reason, just move straight right in midair, so you fly just above it if you were on the left mid platform

There's a danger if it does genesis and flies above right onto you, then you gotta will, but this is very rare

 

Look again pal,and read carefully,if anyone proposed here to make zerk a lot easier is being either ignored or replied bcs thats not the point
2nd theres all kind of propositions but is either one,or another...not all at the same time XD.and comparing drk buff dmg with give nls se as a self buff is ridiculous.
Saying that roar gives drk clearing utility is false,bcs most jobs have an even better clearing skills,the thing is u usualy send drks to clean mobs at bosses bcs, well like theyre doing probably the minimum dmg at the boss anyways they can help that way(currently im used to trio zak with a 6krange nl and bm ,so i usually send them to clear bcs arrow rain thingy or avenger are better than roar to clear and i deal more single target dmg than then anyways)so and theres alrdy a really clever and detailed comment in this thread about why hb was the utility of drks back in gms,but isnt as big deal here in royals bcs of how this server works, tbh changing the hp wsshing system making ap resets untradable seems like a bad idea to me tbh. And yes theres some bad ideas lile givong hb an atack buff...but if u read carefully those are alrdy quoted as loopholes.

Cant be done pal ,thats alrdy being proposed on other threads and,its not a good idea, but i agree with u that every class should be relevant(this doesnt means that all classes should deal the same dmg,or having the same skills with different animations like gms is now)

I kinda feel that is doable too,and i would like to see if u can zerk it all the way, but lets be honest,even mastered,how high is the chance of being a dead beat in an auf run? Being more focused of our hp than actually doing dmg? Also that boss barely does the "getting hit" animation,wich makes really hard yo keep it pinned(wich is fine,its suposed to be a hard boss)
Ive tried and and succeded killing anego thanks to your guide,but i tried to do it in pt and it gets impossible bcs my pt skill sound barely let me to hear boss moan(thtas why i made that thread asking if theres any chance to turn off skill sound withouth turning off overall sound) and even managed to zerk at bga once diying just 2 times(same tecnique,just hard asf) my point is..lets supose u manage to do it once....how often can we do it? Bcs even with zerk being "easy" now, were alwsys in risk(wich is fine,its how our job works and i love it),u have that guide with an "impossible" boss,but also u could die at ht ant day(one day a friend of mine told me "hey im hting with the highest dmg drk in server" and tjrn told me "hey he died XD") I trully believe that if somehow we get 8-10k hits from auf it would be still hard asf to mastered,but at least, we could be a really help,bcs we can hit+a nice skill like hb.

 

After going through the thread, here's my alterable suggestions

-Zerk scaling that can go to -30% hp at 215%
-max zerk boosts Achilles damage reduction when active by +10%
-max zerk or beholder increases avoid by a good chunk when active like +150
-beholder boosts regen in seduce,
-hb can break HP cap for drk only to 35k

 

sorry i think i was not very clear on my point
the mob clearing is not from roar but more from spear crusher able to hit multiple targets
the DPS against the bosses is maintained while being able to clear the mobs for the ranged attackers to hit the boss efficiently

as for buffing the damage, my point is that increasing drk's damage at this point, would be bad for balance for the warrior classes, as drks will be able to play as a utility player (providing HB), while being able to hit multiple targets withe their main attack (same as hero), and matching/surpassing damages of paladins and/or heroes

for my point about APR, i was trying to illustrate how HB is valuable, but the current state of this server makes it kinda "irrelevant" due to the playerbase meta
the unwashed and new players would still see HB as a godsend though

 

We could argue about utility server definition, but as this thread is about drks relevance, i would say that utility just counts if its a drks thing ONLY or at least thing of a very few jobs...,if u are saying that we can stay spamming crusher and thanks to be a multitarget skill it clears the mobs...well then u just runned scarga with a drk bcs that doesnt work at zak,ht,theboss, and i think most bosses that spawn crap..u have to do something specifc to clear , and most jobs have something to clear..and better than drks...so theres nothing special about that...cant even take it in consideration(not counting that heros barrage is pretty much crusher with another anination...it works the same), and again if u think that warriors are balanced between esch other means that ure not aware of how warrior works or u havent read the thread properly...rn heros are the best warrior withouth discussion. does the best dmg and have the easiest gamestyle...and and that doesnt make sense.....
Believe me if drks dmg gets buffed somehow even witouth any nerf there will be still LOTS of ppl who arent going to be capable of using them and moving to hero anyways. Not even speaking if zerk moved back to 40%, idk what balance are you talking about.

Disclaimer: i truly believe that with the current game state and and a the little range "buff" shadowers got,all warriors and marksman are a little behind on the metagame.

 

heroes are pretty close to drks in terms of damage for the same funding
(i have a 18x hero and 18x drk)
even at the top tier equips (talking about the peeps who make it to the damage range thread), the calculated dps potentials are still very close between drk and hero
that discussion whether hero >>drk or drk>> hero has been going on since forever and im siding with hero for the the most part, but drks should by right, have the upper hand when really heavy WA investments are made, along with naricain elixir (gelts not enough on my side, need more funds for more WA and naricains)

as for the whiting powers of drk at bosses, its pretty much accepted that the ranged classes are always gonna take the cake for the single target bossing
if making drks relevant would mean bringing drks damage to match MM or BMs, let alone NLs or sairs
that would be absolutely broken as there is no penalties for getting too close to mobs (the caveat of ranged classes, except sairs)
there is no worries of wasting attacks on trash mobs (except sairs)
the low number of hits compared to the ranged classes makes SE not as important, so if the SE dies or dc, there is not too much of an effect

buffing a class for relevance, should be tackling the weaknesses of the class so that they can be less trash compared to their peers, rather than suddenly becoming the dominant class
looking at the previous server balances
- buccs getting damage buffs so that they can become an actual attacker instead of a SI mule
- shadowers skills getting damage buffs to actually feel useful without using meso explosion only
these classes are still unremarkable compared to the hard DPS classes like NLs, but are no longer a unanimous trash classes that we all remember from the original source

as it stands, the only weakness that i find in drks is the survivability section while maintaining DPS
all other classes, if hp washed/ HB'd up to enough hp to above 15k hp, will pretty much survive better than a 30k hp drk, while maintaining DPS
they do not have to do much HP management and timing the potions, while maintaining their main attacks up
even high skill sair play, where the boat mounting is timed perfectly, the difficulty is the same as trying to survive a normal encounter with a boss that hits past 15k damage for a drk
if the sair plays slightly below perfect -> just lose out a little bit on damage
if the drk messes up once while trying to maintain berserk -> death ez

as such i would really fancy the idea of not having the hard trigger for berserk at 50%, but having a damage scaling between 100%-200% damage depending on the HP of the drk, in order for the berserk mechanics to match sair's boat survivability
mathematically how it could scale
linear: damage = 100% + {[(max hp - current hp)/(0.5* max hp)]*100%}, with an upper limit of 200%
exponentially increasing with decreasing hp: damage = (max hp/current hp)*100%, with an upper limit of 200%

this way, the drk's damage is tied to the hp they are playing at, with the risk takers enjoying the usual 200% damage, and those going above the 50% line would start losing damage but gain survivability

 

some comments seem to forget that buccs have higher damage than BMs, and so much higher damage than drks, as well as having useful party buffs. somehow drks having a comparable damage would be "broken" even though they have to zerk for it?

balance discussions here are really cancerous and it was a mistake to start changing the game so much, making it unbalanced in new ways in the process, and opening the door to this

 

Ill start saying that, what im about to say is not entirely my opinion, is what ive researching from many drk mains in the 2 years ive been here.
Theres an user of this server who has a pretty good geared of all warriors and told me this:"Playing a drk or a hero is pretty much the same, i dont feel that drks are really more difficult to play" and i can respect his opinion and even believe him, and respect him for being such an skillfull player so theres no job who actual represent a challenge for him, but theres a thing i cant accept from him and that is that he really tough that his feeling was the actual reality, withouth asking anyone else, thats wrong, everyone should make a difference between my personal opinion and how things actually work. As a player of MS for almost 15 years(including royals) i know this is not a hard game, no matter what job u use, in general terms, but for me at least inside the game theres a big difference between playing a drk or a nl for example.
To me playing a drk is not that hard,except at some locations, theres ppl like the one i just mention that doesnt feel any challenge, but theres a ton of ppl(especially those who moved from nl to drk) who have a few struggles or directly are incapable to zerk acurately...not to mention those who multiclient with a single computer i would say that for the 20-30 ppl ive asked and follow with drks this are the stadistics:

2 of 20 thinks that is not hard at all
8 of 20 thinks that is kinda hard
5 of 20 thinks that is hard but if u choose drk on purpose u should enjoy it bcs darks are meant 4 masochist
5 of 20 thinks that is TOO HARD , and frustrating bcs theres no real reward for such an hard gameplay(actually i haved 3 friends who tried drks and even got pretty neat skis who quitted after trying it for like 4-6 months)
my conclusion is Drk is hard in overall opinion

Now ill quote your last comment saying again that some things that u previosuly said as "utility" are worthless aside hb which has a real value.

its true that heros and drks are really close in dmg......and you dont see a problem with that? in your full comment you mention that the "real problem" is the low survivability the we have.And for many of us that is not even a problem , thats the soul of drks always being 2 steps from dying.
its quite OBVIOUS that our dmg is not bad if we have more survivability...but the fact is that we havent..so it should be a reward on it
like sparky said b4, its cool for us to have a hard gameplay(i just proposed somehow a way for us have a way to zerk and survive at auf and a possible pb, JUST THOSE 2,bcs at bosses who moves like those even being hit a bit less of 10k is going to be hard asf to zerk(dont say bigfoot bcs that shet hit 10k but is easy as hell to keep pinned))
Indeed theres a discussion about who is really stronger for a long time, and theres calculation given by high tier players for years now, the thing is...i decided to try it myself aaaaand thing results to be really different

If u do dmg formulas on paper shure...drks>hero if theres SI+SE and heros>drks if theres no SI or if u try it at krex shure, u can get the same conclusion, but, as u have both jobs i could ask you, try yourself at zak/ht with SE+SI and with the same pt and look if your drk does actual more dmg than ur hero...ill save some time..that will never happen
those 3-6 seconds u lose every apple u consume, those 3-5 seconds u either sacrifice/roar or wait to getting hit for boss bcs u overhealed yourself bcs u were too close from dying that 1/2 second it takes crusher to react after u pressed a different key(wich we do more often than anyone bcs were the job who manual heal the most) makes that no matter what buffs we have, were always dealing less dmg.

i stated it b4 ive tried myself against heros with my same att gears or even a bit less since i haved 32 att gears till recently that i have 51. and the results are always the same Hero>Drk(and im not that bad at zerking believe me)

we should, but were not.as simple as that and.....XD "gelts not enough on my side, need more funds for more WA and naricains" .. im sorry this is funny Mr. rich if my comparision is using apples is not accurate? XDD, No. a normal boss runs works with calculations on apples, if u use either gelts or naricains ure telling falacys, no matter how funded u are those pots doesnt have an unlimited existance. a REAL LIFE calculation HAS to be made on apples.

despite being accepted is not the same as being correct, i dont get your point, the way the game is designed have to get close to the mob/boss is already a penalty XD.Theres no constant spawn of trash mobs who ACTUALLY keeps bothering ranged atackers for a long time(not even at zak wich i think summons the most carp mobs) idk if we will get close to bms with 10-15% dmg buff but even if we do...why it would be broken? they have THE MOST USEFULL buff in game, they have a real good postion in game rn, same with shadowers and buccaners, shads are a really powerfull multitarget melee with high utility and high avoid(with the range buff they just got, put them in a real good position)and buccaners have a more than decent dps+insane amount of iframes+a really usefull party buff(wich can get even better if jobs who get benefit from taht one gets more power warriors+MMs)

That of SE is just usefull for NL+sair is bullshit, i dare u to do the math for yourself, the only jobs who barely gets benefits from SE is high tier pallys and shadower, aside of them so if ure not doing full pally ht/zak SE is a MUST , its true that is more dramatic to lose se if the boss pt is 5 NLS than if it 2nls+3 melees, but at least for a drk SE means Almost 15-17%(with no SI) and over 20%with of overall dmg THATS A BIG EFFECT.(jsut even bigger on nls) Have you noted that no one complains about sairs high dmg? bcs Nls are broken, SAIRS not, they have a real hard gameplay..REWARDED WITH THE HIGHEST DMG IN GAME, and that doesnt make them waaaaay above BUCCS isn it? do you understand now?(were not asking to be the highest dmg in server, just between the warriors as it should be pallys are alrdy highest on elemental weaknes+a real usefull skill and heros are safer easier and even cheaper)

It seems that u can see the problem on desing, but ure targeting wrong the solution
1st.- 200% dmg sounds neat..but its disapointing whn u understan that is 95% heros dmg and 100% for us is around 40% of everyone else dmg...that isnt "sacrificing a bit of dmg" thats being directly trash.

2nd.Most of us dont want boat survivability, or be even with other jobs in that matter..ez die its kind of drks identity..we want a REWARD for live between life an death something like sairs....

Like sparky said even less survivability wouldnt be bad if we get a proper reward from it, and believe me, that wouldnt make drks tier1 in server or even between warrior meta like boat doesnt make sairs to be tier 1 in game or either between pirates meta, bcs and even if ppl dont like to admit BUCC>SAIR if we become the strongest warrior i would still say Heros>drks....the only thing that makes nls tier1 is there high dmg high survivability and a bit of utility, not only for dmg.... do you understand now?

 

exactly.....but

do you really think this? being a server that most jobs are completely trash compared to nls seems better? were not balancing anything even knowing that some jobs have no use aside being mules? i trully believe that if developers havent change a thing in the past this server wouldnt exist now, theres many old source players saying that they quit bcs "royals is too different now" it looks like a lame excuse 4 me tbh...a game with 12 options were just 2 of them are really viable, seems like a shit game to me, im absolutely shure that most of them haved quitted any ways if royals hasnt changed at all, and today this game wouldnt exist.

 

Extending the scaling berserk to a max of 40% HP would be a viable change too. If you can maintain 40% HP at high level bosses, props to you! Ought to be rewarded with higher DPS for higher risk.

 

Yup,thats one of the proposals made in this thread(by many users) zerk from 50 to 40% hp and zerk from 200-220%...thats a 10% overall dmg buff for us,that will makr heros probably still stronger self buffed, but makes us stronger on SE and a bit more on SI in static boss like krex(even a bit stronger than bms) ,but due the 40%hp requeriment(12k) would force us to use 2 hp pots+ being even more more concentrate in our hp+being even easier to overheal so in zak and even more in HT i would say that that we probably just gonna be dealing 5% more dmg...wich gona makes us barely stronger than heros..AS IT SHOULD BE.and then think someway to keep auf haven hard and if someday gets released PB, but zerkable for us, theres 2 ideas being proposed 1 is change zerk to tier system 20% more dmg for every 10% hp less than 100%,wich i like bcs we could do auf at 18k hp..still being hard asf and doing just 10-20% less dmg than usual wich is the real " sacrifice a bit of dmg for a bit of survability"(and not like some ppl here say that is a bit sacrifice half our dmg) and not losing half of my dmg just bcs i overhealed 1 hp...OR having an special pot/buff at auf/pb that cut by half .i preffer tier system tbh

 

Bump

 

I'm on the scaling and 40% (or lower) threshold, but I think 220% is too high. 205-210 at the highest is a big buff especially the higher level and more funded you are.

 

No,20%add on zerk is just 10%overall dmg increase,and if ure adding a handicap like having to be always under 12k hp its going to reduce that amount of overall dmg even more, tbh getting zerk to 40% and adding less than 20% ,may be a dmg nerf instead of a buff
and im not joking