Suggestion to make DrKs more relevant (DrKs have been buffed, irrelevant post)

that's why i would rather have berserk to have a damage scaling trigger instead of a hard trigger at a certain hp
accidentally pressing 1 too many potions and seeing berserk get cancelled at 15.2k hp is really annoying
let alone having to roar to control down the HP after using apples

when i was talking about gelts and naricains, im talking about the absolute potential of drks, not the "real life" scenarios
i have not seen my drk out damage my hero since forever, but the difference is small
and i was just pointing out how hard i would need to fund drk to match an equally funded hero

the point is that the melee classes do not suffer the penalties of the ranged classes, and the ability of crusher to clear mobs while maintaining attacks to the boss is useful for managing summoned mobs (seen quite a few instances of mobs disrupting the ranged attackers for quite awhile cuz there were no heroes/drks in the zak teams)

for game balance, if the melee classes = ranged classes for single target performance, it would be pretty much unfair for every instance outside of bossing
the meta of the server is to run bosses for training
but as a whole, the game has content outside, such as TOT

and for SE being the most useful buff in the game, i would say that is the meta of the server again, rather than the game design
if HP washing was not a thing here, HB would be the most critical party buff - look at the old 2008-pre big bang maplestory server videos on zak, ht or pink bean
if HB was buffed to 100% increased hp and mp
the current server meta would still see HB as a trash buff
the unwashed/ new players would see it as an OP buff
if the server had no washing allowed : HB = god tier buff

should game design be ignore just to suit the server metas?

as for buccs and shadowers buffs, it was to pull them out from the obscurity, and make them a playable non trash class
before the buffs to them, im pretty sure most would treat them as trash attackers, and recruiting another sair/NL/BM/MM would be a better choice

my point was that the loss of SE has a less dramatic effect on the warrior classes compared to the ranged attackers

high tier sair play will have higher damage than NLs
but the difference between drk and sairs is that sairs are pure attackers with no party support abilities, while drks are support+ semi dps
again, should game design and balance be ignored to "reward" players
if drks were in the same position, where there are no support skills (delete HB from the game), and the spear crusher is single target only, then i would see it as fair to have drks to deal more damage than sairs

if you would like to see a pure drk damage buff without a full warrior class buff, it would be quite unfair for the heroes and paladins
heroes damage and drks are close but heroes are purely dps type without a shred of party support
your point of "40% of everyone else dmg...that isnt "sacrificing a bit of dmg" thats being directly trash." pretty much means that the warrior class does trash and not just the drks, as all 3 warriors are not too far off from each other

again im back on the topic of balancing between the warrior classes
if drks become the premier DPS for the warrior classes, the heroes would look useless as they have absolutely no support skills
paladins would still have a place as a crash + DPS role

i get it that difficulty of play should be rewarded
but if we look at class balance, the proposal on getting drks to be the best DPS for the warriors is the same as asking BMs to get buffed to deal more damage than NLs
why do i say that?
BMs are pretty much at the same spot as drks in game design, with a support + DPS function, with with pretty bad mobility and slightly lower DPS than the hard attackers (NLs and sairs)
heroes are pretty much a hard attacker, with an easy playstyle, high survivability and low upkeep, but do not have any support skills (unless fury stacks) very much like NLs

if drks don't want survivability, does having a 30% berserk activation and 300% damage multiplier sound fair as an example?
great for zak, but a fully washed drk could get 1 shotted by too many things
and HP washing would definitely not be optional for drks
surely its possible to heal up before every damage tick, but the amount of things that can disrupt berserk or kill the drk would be off putting


game balance is not just about making 1 class stronger because it seems weak
if only drks get buffed, there will eventually be 2 more threads asking for "make heroes relevant again" and "make paladins relevant again"

 

I'd like to hear why people think, given the current damage (or a small boost in damage as suggested) that Zerk does, that the threshold should become 40% or even lower Max HP.

 

Controlling berserk isn't challenging enough nowadays. For those who tried Zakum as a Drk in the old source with a proper 1/1 (draining both hp/mp to 1), today's Zakum is a joke because back then, we had to manually click on mp pots as well. But that thrilling/life risking playstyle is what attracted me to this unique class. Many are raising the stress behind the concern of dying with a single misclick but that's why you go bossing with a party, with a bishop and preferably TL!

If the dmg buff won't be considered, despite my personal preferences, I'll withdraw the suggestion to nerf berserk for I fear I'll get stoned to death.

I also suggested berserk nerf as a reasonable compromise to request for a dmg buff. Given how easy berserk control became, only buffing drk's dps will destroy the cliff-hanging balance between warrior classes and make heroes obsolete.

 

Where does nerfing Zerk to <40% max HP put the DrK in endgame bosses? Given this change and no change to survivablity, what endgame bosses can DrKs successful Zerk at <12k HP?

What damage % do you think would be fair in exchange for the loss of 3k utilizable HP?

 

Every boss except Showa Boss, Royal Guard and Auf Haven.

I don't think in % but 15~20 wep att.

 

Tried myself times against a hero a few times with 2 less att geats than me, at cwpq and ht, turned out that he did 3.5% more dmg than me at cwpq and around 7.5%(with no SI) at HT .Also ive tried lately stay under 12k hp,and at results to takes around 2-3% of my overal normal dmg at zak(not to count that i died bcs a mob pushed me against body when bm gave SE and he asked me if i got,and i said "YES")
So like i stated anything below 10% overall dmg buff buf be either not rewarding enough ,or, not buff just change,or eirher a nerf IMO

15att buff will mean an aprox increment of 2950 points of dmg per line on crusher(15x58(dmg u got for every 1 att as a drk aprox)x170% x 200%) thats 15-20% for low tier drks..10% for mid tier ones and barely 6-7% for high tier ones...

Thats why i think is making zerk a tier system skill (20% extra dmg for every 10%less hp u have up to 40%) it would solve everything , correct dmg boost for zerkable bosses at 40% and if someone finds imposible to auf at 40-50% can try at 60% sacrificing a bit of dmg

If they decide to just make hex buff stack i wouldnt mind that,if they find it too broken change the rebuff system from 10 to 20 seconds...that way were not having att buff full time...but that would change at all the relevance at high lvl end game bosses...so i would preffer the first one by much...

Despite ive seen some interesting ideas..this are the ones i liked the most

 

This is just elitist crap. We have NLC elixers and reindeer milks which literally would make no difference. Same with pet auto pot like, what? If this is the reason you're suggesting a 40% change, it's just rose tinted glass nonsense. Also using Zakum/Pap as reference points is asinine as they are *3rd job designed* bosses.

Then go showa boss and zerk there honestly, or toad. I'm sorry but this is *maplestory* and you're trying to make it sound like dark knights are like dark souls but they were never hard, just inefficient. Most people who want these changes are not asking them because "lul drk is hard!!" its because our class literally cannot access some content without doing 3rd job damage. Imagine trying to tell an NL they have to use Lucky Seven at level 200 because the boss has some mechanic that if you use Triple seven MP once you die.

Drk's should do the most damage because they do require the most micro management. We are literally the only warrior class that can at maximum utilize 15k HP, every other class has been balanced/designed to have their base 4th job skills do, well, 4th job level damage. That's how they're based on design now, if we received some type of 30k HP mitigation skilll, I would be more agreeable to the ladder, but as it is now, we do the same as any other warrior with a much stricter handicap.

 

I GOT IT GUYS. ZE SOOLUTION!

1. 5 LINES CRUSHER POG
2. ZERK NERF TO 150 %

WIN !!! .... no? cries in a corner

 

Name me one 3rd job character or a party of them in 2020 that will slay Zakum and I'd be happy to agree with you. It's not possible to use % pots for both HP/MP at Zakum as a Drk if you wish to maximize the DPS with the ducking method. I have asked Matt about... 5 times over the years to fix the 1/1 MP drain glitch at Zakum but it hasn't been addressed yet. Under the condition that it's fixed, after you are hit by 1/1, pet autopot can only consume 1 pot at a time with HP pots on priority. Then, Auto pot for the MP pot won't trigger immediately, disabling you from using any skills before you manually click on an mp pot. There actually is a huge difference.

Oh boy...if you think current Drk playstyle is hard, have you tried Corsair before?

I already did a failed test run on Auf (due to party members dying and giving up) with berserk and surprisingly, it was actually doable. I'll post the recording when I succeed in the next try. I have a Drk friend who fully zerked in Auf and whited the party. If Auf is eliminated from the list, Showa boss is more or less the only real raid boss that cannot be zerked against, since the concept of Royal guard is similar to that of Anego. Relmy from the above post says zerking against Showa boss is even possible, just with extreme difficulty. Do other warrior class characters without the HP control concern even raid Showa boss at all? I hardly see warriors going for this boss regardless of the berserk issue. Is the request to buff Drk's survivability just for the sake of stating that there's no end game boss we cannot tackle easily? Showa boss is infamous for the chain stuns and high touch damage, making it an ideal target for high tier ranged attackers. The majority of Showa boss raiders comprise of multiple ranged attackers and bishops, not warriors.

Those who complained about the survivability of Drks in this thread, did you pour in any effort to attempt to zerk against the bosses you deem as mission impossible before complaining? With a single exception of Showa boss and 2 area bosses of unmatching context, THERE IS NO end game boss that deals over 15k damage to the right leveled Drk, thanks to Achilles and hex defense buff. Why do you think Auf touch damage got nerfed hard?

Spoiler: Auf touch damage to Drk

I don't disagree that Drk SHOULD do the most multi-target damage among warrior classes but HB is a crucial party buff that hugely benefits both the caster and party members. Although an increasing number of end game attackers wash heavily, there are more people who prefer having the HB buff. That alone plays a huge factor in the class balance. I'm pretty sure Matt, who is in favor of securing nostalgia, regards HB with a greater value than most of you. With that in mind, I don't think Drks will simply get a damage buff from the current position, at least not without a compromise.

 

this is not as important but, i think the question of "wich one is harder?" between drk and corsair depends on the player, i used a corsair for a while back on gms around 3 or 4 months after pb was released, it was harder than my mages but i dont feel that it was actually harder than drk...well that or im growing old...wich is possible....:,(

PLS prove me wrong again, i will actually looking foward to. im not afraid of being wrong, im really afraid of being fooling myself here.(Btw i dont mind if its as hard as bgb or the boss, but if auf is harder than anego, then , i will be not that shure if that is correct, auf is suposed to be a main boss, anego isnt) and btw remember that if somehow zerk get back to 40% with no tier system auf haven would be undoable with 13.5k dmg ,with that boss being on server now, idk if its a good idea ask for zerk be back at 40%

what?...WHAT? who? theres a record of that?

ERMMMM, i think ure either overestimating player abilities or either underestimating the playerbase lazyness, i am completely shure that this is not true, ive meet TONS of players that remake their chars to either nl shad or hero just bcs they want to ht watching tv or playing another game at the same time, if they buff drks dmg to NL lvl even without extra handicaps(WICH I AM NOT PROPOSING, ITS JUST A SARCASTIC COMMENT)There will be still LOTS of player whos going to choose hero over drk just bcs its a safer beatstick, and chosing heros over NLS just bcs theyre cheaper...

Like i said tiny buff with no extra handicaps(hex att buff stack) is ok, with zerk handicap, dont worth it or

zerk tier system..even better....

btw @sparky95 ,i realy recomend showa bosses on your drk its hella fun , bga is a bitch, bgb is really hard, but the boss isnt as hard as u think

 

Corsair in HT is about the same difficulty (without breaking ship for maximum DPS) or slightly harder than zerking against anego as Drk.

As long as there's a proper pin with a full squad (not talking about 2~3 man rush for profit), it really isn't that hard. There obviously is a risk with sed but it's much easier than anego.

She's in the same guild as you.

 

I don't know how to tell you this but Zakum was released nearly 2 years before 4th job was even an idea. In fact Zakum was a raid boss specifically for content for 3rd job. So why are we talking about him with 4th job expectations? It's irrelevant to the 4th job balance of the Dark knight, the content that should be focused on is everything beyond HT. Hey what a coincidence we have a problem with majority of that content.

At this point you aren't actually getting the meat of the content or what I'm saying. Lowering HP to 40% does not add this difficulty and this 1/1 nonsense doesn't either tbh. You literally just get HP potted, then you manually press MP pot, I do the same in HT all the time lol

You literally have an MP pot on a hot key, you press it after you're healed? I don't understand why you're ranting about something so trivial and not actually talking about the fact you're exaggerating difficulty.

You should probably re-read that sentence.

Not sure how you can do BGA considering he stuns so often, but BGB is doable, grandpa is not, or I'm missing something since he has a magic attack that does that damage, not touch. The auf SS surprised me because I have seen drks get hit past 15k, maybe hex defense wasn't up? Still, that's really razor edge, doable with 40% pot and unagi?

Hb's value kind of diminishes the higher you go up, ironically. Hero's are good stat sticks and pallies have defense down which are really utilized in high level crap. Even with that AUF SS, 2k hp window is just too small imo, if our damage reflected that tight rope, I wouldn't complain. Most classes have 25% of their hp as a window and most classes do more than us, range classes considerably more.

 

Disclaimer: with this comment im not putting either on your side or sparkys,(i actually think he has some valid points against your statements, but you have a few interesting too,and not to mention that he seems to missread u in a few aswell)
. Im just trying to solve a genuine doubt you have "how to zerk at showa bosses. Bcs it seems that he didnt managed to do it or even tried to.he was quoting me, wich i succesfully did.

Bga is something i recomend not to zerk to if u dont have patient friends who are not blacklisting you for die.
1st bga should be runned with 3 bish mules with full holy shield thats why u got it permanent(i have done with just 2, but its annoying as hell). Thats how u solve the sttuning part.
I have to mention that i wasnt able to FULLY ZERK at bga..just started to get the pattern.
2nd u need a washed buccaner with 28k hp with hb for tl the ress+ keep bga pinned when ure rebuffing the ranged with hb(if needed) or if one of the bishops is urs hes keeping bga pinned and most important for SI. and this time not only 4 dmg bcs it lets you do the next trick

With all that being said u use unagis + cheeses and and Power elixirs 4 this . What you have to do is keep your distance from bga
And atack into zerk range,if he aproach u u just use PE,and rush it again against the wall(bucc will help u with this) and start over. He has 2 skills, one wich does around 12k dmg(no prob,thats why ure using unagis to stay over 13) and the real problem..the shot gun wich deals 18k. But just like anego he does a sign b4 shot u, he grasps and does an animation b4 it shots..and that animation takes around 0.9 secs...and and that why we need SI, with no si crusher takes 0.93 secs , that gives us not time to react and gg.DIE. but with si crusher takes 0.87,wich makes us able to PE b4 get shutted.seems a bit crazy but were hands freen meanwhile the crusher animation is happening.it sounds cool but i just managed to anticipate around 14 shots of 17..wich ofc made my pt have to ress me 3 times(again if there was a way to keep the boss sounds and lower the TT anoyying animation sound i would say bga is able to fully zerk...since this isnt possible i think it has a lot of luck conponent)
Bgb is like toad...hits 13k so u just have to stay at 14k+ hp, nothing more to say,i find it hard bcs u have to be really paying atention for a long time since it has a chunk of hp,but if u have a full pt to keep it pinned, its doable

And im sorry(this dont help to get the drks buff, wich i agree that we should have) but "the boss" is not only doable for us, is the easiest of these 3..by FAR , his skill just takes u to 1/1..u just use 3 cheeses after getting hit..and ure on the road again is like this

1.Heal with power elixir
2.keep it pinned
3.put as away from him as u. Can
4.get hit
5.3 cheeses start atacking
6.everytime he uses the 1/1 skill 3 cheeses and keep atacking
He does that skill A LOT, but if ure aware there is absolutely no prob to zerk at the boss and ...its not a walk on the beach bcs u have to be quick, but i wouldnt say that is hard either...

 

idk man i still white nl's who have 20 lvls on me at zak body phase lul

 

ht is pretty easy just keep ur hp at 10k n above shldnt b tat hard. bump up ur hp to max when sed soon (u shld be using a timer). when done with sed, either roar/sacrifice or let 1/1 cut ur hp down b4 continuing with zerking. managed to do sed on my drk while muling bs to heal myself fairly easily (1 time only tho i hate doing sed)
toad: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/dark-knight-guide-for-toad.158389/ by @Andreaisback

 

Why not use ginsings instead of cheese?

Doable=/=viable, anything with a luck component is not appropriate imo.

I always thought this was a flat 18k damage threshold, if it's just 1/1 that does make it easy, again though.

These are great examples of how ridiculous it is to maintain zerk with mediocre return value.

 

im too used to cheeses. ive getting recomendations from another pro drk players to change pot at this and this location..., but im just too used to.

yes. agreed.
ive tried showa bosses with 3 ,2, and with just 1 bish and with/withouth bucc. Despite is pretty much accepted that having 3 bish is a MUST for a showa run with that being said i would say that:

BGA is just doable and not viableu can be just an hb mule with little dmg till it dies.
but BGB and the boss are both viable no matter what.

DW i have made that mistake before of speaking of a content that i havent tried yet. i even have done that at this same thread speaking of auf haven just have seen video runs and not actually trying to.(altough if its true that drks need a 5-6 man party to make auf doable, then it isnt viable, bcs thanks to rewrd it gives its a 3-4 man boss , if i cant do it with just 4 ppl then it isnt viable for us)

Agree, like i said b4 the real problem is the "return value" and not the cost. and tbh speaking of heros become obsolote is ridicoulus, even if drks do twice as dmg of hero, theres MAAAAAAANY ppl who like easy game play or are directly lazy,hero would still be the meta warrior, no matter what.(and thats why sairs are not a popular job)