Party Quests A quick look in to the BEST content of mapleroyals

How about, only allow a cwpq run to happen, if at least 6 out of 10 characters have a different IP?

This would reduce the amount of multiclienting, but also enables players to run, if there is no one to be found. They can still buy sign-ups, so it would not really restrict anyone, just maybe make it more realistic that people remember, that this is a MULTIPLAYER PQ

 

I'm a smash bros guy as well. But I'm more into Ultimate although. In any case, what happened to melee correlates with what happened here (minus the skill of course lol).

Well yeah, you get whatever effort you put in +/- the RNG aspect of the game. This is a matter of perspective as I said. I too like to optimize gameplay but also I don't think HP washing or leeching is fun by any means. You could still optimize your gameplay by using all your hard earned meso in equips rather than AP resets and INT equips. I knew I'd get some backlash when comparing multiclienting to hacking or rwt but hey, that's just what I think. You see, to me, it shouldn't be allowed so its like breaking a rule (even if it requires a big effort). If HP washing wasn't a thing, you'd have fun optimizing other aspects of the game like chaosing your tops and bottoms hoping for a +5 rather than a +3, for instance. I agree with everything else though, I'm fully aware mules are costly and time consuming and naturally you'd expect some sort of return to the effort you invested in creating those mules. I think optimized gameplay should gravitate towards equips and skill, not muling.

Yeah, that's how I play. I tried Unwashed but the guild is (mostly) dead lol. To answer your question, I think its mainly because we all want to be efficient as possible so it just feels weird to purposely be set back by the way the game is played rather than by how, we feel, is supposed to be played. I'll try to explain myself with some examples below:

You see, I created a a new character a week ago and wanted the Spirit Diviner medal so I went on to kill around 444 of each mob. While I was doing it, I thought to myself why not just bring my bishop: These are all undead mobs and genesis should be way better. So... I did. I brought my bishop and the quest was a breeze. I no longer feel any gratification for getting the medal, nor will anyone else feel impressed by it because its really easy to get. For the sake of throwing another example, If you see a level 100 beginner, it isn't a 'wow, that's a lot of work; kudos to you', its more likely going to be a 'you clearly leeched yourself to 100, ez'. Whenever I try grinding, I feel dumb because I could be leeching myself instead. Where's the sense of accomplishment? So that's one: While having your bishop do the work, you do get a feeling of progression but its not gratifying or challenging. I can't feel any gratification about anything (other than my HP and equips) I achieve because mules make everything too easy... Wait, I know what you're thinking. "Don't play with mules and you will get the gratification you seek."

Here's my second point, mostly addressing the 'just play however you want'. The one class I haven't created yet is archer. I think they're really fun but I don't feel like committing to a unwashed character for a long time, only for it to become pseudo-obsolete in boss runs in the future. I too love to optimize my gameplay so it feels weird to not-wash it even though I don't like it. The reason I don't is because its expensive and I already had a bad experience. I loved playing a Sin back when I was younger and still do today but bossing on my NL was extremely boring to me. Once everything was ready: fully washed HP, equips, I went to try krex and zakum and thought it was the most boring thing ever. Chances I die are very slim and I don't even have to focus. I don't want to put in any effort in a bowmaster knowing full well I won't be playing it in the early levels (which I enjoy very much) because it needs base int, I will be selling leech (which I don't like) to fund its AP resets and items and then I might not like the end result. That's the second reason, I think, people would answer to the 'Why can't we have both?'. If we had the same endresult, at least, I think people who are against mulin/washing would be more open to not want it completely removed.

I don't know man. Where are bishops in your defined roles? You tell me their role is multi target damage and not HS or a NL is a popular class because of its ranged attacks rather than raw DPS.

I too disagree muling makes any class with a party buff useless. I'm sure you're able to boss just fine but there's no denying if there were no mules around, you wouldn't see NL+Bishop Story. Why would anyone play a class other than the best one lol? If its not you making the mules, other one can do it for you. I don't know man, do you find it fun? You spoke of melee earlier and how optimized it was. The reason I'm not into Melee is because Fox is actually a Nightlord. Maybe you're into melee because the high skill ceiling it has. Who knows.



As for "If you want to grind your NL up yourself, not wash, and fund yourself without leech, that's great. If you want to grind up a Bishop or Mage + HS mule, gear it to be able to sell sufficient leech, and self leech and/or sell leech for funds to wash; that's cool too." Believe me, I would. If I had 15k HP by the time I was done playing my NL myself, I would. I don't want to be worse than any other NL around. I want to remain competitive while also playing my character.


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tl;dr

I don't feel the 'just play however you like' argument is fair when we all obviously want to be efficient when doing things. If playing how I wanted (and arguably how it was intended) wouldn't mean being in a terrible disadvantage, I most definitely would. I just don't see how some of you guys think playing a high int NL whom has been holding a wand for more levels than a claw is more fun than actually throwing your stars and killings mobs in a PQ with other people. That's mostly what I disagree with. I can only imagine you're a 'enjoy when you're at the top' while I'm 'enjoying the journey' to the top. The sense of progression for us, who don't like this playstyle, dies shortly after getting to bossing levels, knowing we're much worse than those who have washed.

 

Same! I still keep up loosely with Melee but Ultimate is my main focus now. I also thought the comparison was appropriate.

I would never be the first to raise my hand and say leeching or washing is fun. Its not. Its tedious and expensive. I've been very active on feedback regarding alternatives to washing and leeching, and I think that is a different issue entirely as not having enough HP is a literal wall to certain content while having mules is not a hard requirement to even attempt a particular boss. I totally agree that there should be ways to level and have enough HP without leeching and INT, but it doesn't really have anything to do with mules. There are still people using CS on tops/bottoms/helms etc and I don't think that really has anything to do with mules either. All of those things can exist separately without stepping on anybody's toes and telling them how they should and should not play. I think everybody should be able to optimize their gameplay however they want outside cheating or RWT, as those are shortcuts and do no require any in-game effort.

Its a personal accomplishment. You don't need outside validation from others to justify feeling like you achieved something. If you earned the medal without using your Bishop, that is awesome and you should feel good for completing it, regardless of whether anybody else things its impressive. Same with grinding a Beginner, or any other challenging task. The sense of accomplishment comes from yourself. Who cares what somebody else thinks, and why limit other people's gameplay because you don't play the way they do? Just because there's a meta doesn't mean you're obligated to participate in it, and if somebody is looking down on you for not doing so, they're elitist trash and should be ignored.

The thing is, its not fair to lower the optimization ceiling to your level of commitment just because you don't wish to optimize further. To bring Melee back up, it would be like asking for a ban on wavedashing and L cancelling because you don't want to implement it into your playstyle. If you don't want to wash your Archer, you don't have to. You will just have to adjust your playstyle accordingly ie. you will need to do certain contents with HB. Again, washing is more of a separate issue from muling and I'm a huge advocate for alternatives. If you want to make your Archer, grind him up unwashed, do it. If you don't feel like the end result will be rewarding enough, perhaps consider a different class, something way different from NL that has more interaction. It sounds like you're just bored or maybe getting burnt out, but in any case, this doesn't really have anything to do with muling so I digress.

Bishops are an outlier, as they're the only pure support class in the game. You can point out many reasons why NL are popular. High damage, ranged attacks, flashy skills, high mobility, high avoid, edgy swag factor, etc. I personally don't care for them so I'm probably not the best person to ask.

To draw further comparisons with Melee, spaceys are definitely the NL+Bishop of the game, but you STILL see plenty of other characters in top 8 at big events, in the same way you don't have to have mules or sell leech or whatever to be successful in this game. Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Luigi, Ice Climbers, all see top 8 and have even won big tournaments. Those are the Paladins, Marksman, Buccaneer, Shadowers of this game. They didn't play those characters because they were "the best", they played them because they liked them, and they got fucking good with them by putting in the time and effort. That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. You don't have to play the absolute 100% most efficient way to have fun, be successful, and generally enjoy the game. Its not fair to say that others shouldn't be allowed to play that way though just because you personally don't want to and they progress faster than you.


This is good stuff but we've kinda derailed the thread, so we can continue this in PM if you'd like haha.