If I am not wrong, simply changing the multiplier of skills is not too difficult in terms of implementation. So the only problem is estimating the impact of that change in multipliers. For that, we have damage calculators that can estimate damage outputs post-changes. If anybody finds it difficult to make these estimations, I would gladly volunteer myself to do the calculations (for e.g. we want archmages to be two-thirds as strong as x class, what % should we have on their skills, etc)
I know my input is probably moot but I am an advocate for buffing mages to have somewhat 2/3s of even the lowest weapon attack class. My reasoning is that some people want to only play mages; they don't want to be forced to make another class just so they can play the endgame.There are Bishops that don't have to deal with that and yet they still have impeccable mobbing capabilities. Why should mages be any different? I've been playing a mage since 2005 and after second job their 1v1 is trash. As a teenager I didn't have the time nor patience to start all over just to boss, so friends and alliances would invite me. As an adult, I still have limited time to do that. Buffing mages' 1v1 would not change the way they make mesos (leeching will always be more lucrative) and if they're still the weakest attackers for bossing that won't change NL story. The whole point is for mages to not be utter trash so that if they do get invited or want to boss with friends they can be useful. Again, I'm just one person and this change probably won't happen but I would love to see mages in my boss runs. EDIT: Also wanted to include that Royals buffed Shads, Pallys, MM and they didn't break anything. If mages's DPS were below even these classes, it would be alright as long as they aren't utterly useless in bossing. (Hell, even giving mages a buff for WA/support during bosses would be nice, but I know the programming might be an issue there). Bishops can leech and go on boss runs. Their leeching isn't affected, so why should mages'? This is the same problem I had in GMS; you can't get into parties unless you know people. The point is to buff mages where they aren't utterly trash at bossing. Being able to hit when bosses' attack up (1 damage) isn't enough to get you invited to a party. This is why I made a Drk instead of a mage, but even that might not be needed since it's NL story + mules. It's not unnecessary if people just want to play a mage. That's the entire point of this thread; to make mages acceptable at bossing instead of utter trash. I disagree that their OP mobbing makes up for it. Bishops have OP mobbing and can still boss. At least give mages a good support skill if their damage must remain the same. I agree with you in that the server is mostly NL story, but if mages received a buff similar to a MM then it wouldn't hurt, would it? They won't become viable but at least they won't be utter trash. Some players just want to play mages. Pretty sure OP and others like me aren't saying to make CL/Para similar to Warrior abilities. We're just saying to not make them utter trash. Bishops already have significant leveling and meso making advantages and can still boss. Buffing mages 1v1 won't even complete closely to any WA class. The most simple implementation is what @PurePoisonXD said: but there are definitely other ways as well. Right, because soloing a boss for 6 hours is broken. The solution to "make another character" is the problem old Maple had. Other problems were addressed here were solved, such as fast travel tickets, no Pay2Win among others being available to everyone. Being able to boss is not unnecessary. Royals can choose to balance better than GMS did. I've been playing a mage since 2005. I was only accepted to boss runs with my friends/guild. As a teenager sharing a PC every 3 hours, I didn't have the time and patience to start all over and make another character. If Bishops can have superior mobbing and can boss, so should mages. They are not "good enough" if they're only used for leech and are trash at bossing. That's the entire point of this thread. The most simple fix, technically speaking with regards to "coding" could to be to add another line or increase the percentage. There are people willing to test it, like Tsue and Geyforlife said themselves.
You're looking at the end state here. You also need to look at the process of getting there. It is much harder for bishops to get to the point of selling decent leech. They need to invest a significantly amount of money into genesis whereas mage ultimate skill books are much cheaper/easier to come by. So yes and no, the leeching of bishops is not affected but the time it takes to get there is. There was a time when gen 20 was like ~800-900m before Zakum chaos scroll buffs. That's 800m/0.7 chance = 1.1 or 1.2 billion mesos investment to even get to selling "decent" leech. Archmages need like 30m max. And to the point of bishops bossing, it is mostly due to HS. Before GFX, bishops didn't attack that much in fear of disconnects. The extra genesis damage is a bonus thanks to the GFX fix but bishops being able to "boss" was really just for HS and maybe holy shield and res (but just git gud amirite?). Edit: I don't think bishops were even paid Zak helm money before GFX fix IIRC (or at least that's what I heard from a bishop friend).
You made a great point about Bishops having to sink more money in to get started. The reason why classes like a Bishop and Nightlord cost the most is because they're broken. I mean in the sense that the only one that can kind of compete with a NL is a Corsair. And there is no other boss support in the game other than Bishops. Yes, they cost more but they can play the game to the fullest. If mages were buffed significantly you can bet their equipment prices would also go up. Same for the reverse; if NL's were actually balanced, their equipment would also cost less than what they currently are. Not sure if Genesis prices would be affected. Don't forget that Bishops can also be a seduce mule in Horntail. It's because of NL's damage percentages and Bishop's kit that makes they broken. And I'm pretty sure Bishops get paid now because I did pay one during Zakum. The way I see it, there are three things they can do in this situation to improve mages' status: 1. Buff mages by either giving 2 lines of damage for their 1v1 or 2/3 of Weapon Attack classes DPS or buff their kit, like Fire/Ice demon to do more damage. (You can't call a class OP that can be decent, not good, at bossing and great at farming) In that case increase NL's Avenger damage; I'd be okay with that. 2. Give mages a special party buff that will help Weapon Attack classes. (This would be difficult to implement and might not even help that much) 3. Give mages a type of support they can do during bosses. (Again, could be difficult to implement) TL; DR: Nerf NL, buff mages. It won't change much because most people will still play a NL and not many will still play a mage. The point is to help mage players not feel like utter trash at bossing. Anyways, I'm just wasting my time typing here because Royals has been out for seven years and still haven't changed what they think isn't broken. Not my server, not my rules.
@Becca I apologize for necroing the old thread; I didn't realize when it was posted. I didn't want to create a new post since there were more than enough threads about this topic. Here is a recent one with pretty much the same thoughts. @Wonderstruck Here is my reply to you saying 1-135 is very hard for a NL. Yes, it may be true that it is hard, but that's the thing; they get the most benefit once they reach the higher levels. In fact, most NLs leech to those levels anyways so all they get is benefits and no losses. Mages, on the other hand, train for life and no one gives two cents. So, do you wanna explain to me which one is better? Crap early game to fun end game or fun mid game to crap late game? It's basically leech and NL story and I'm assuming the majority is okay with that statuo quo and whoever is in charge of balance is as well. I'm guessing multiple people have already mentioned this to them but this is what they decided. All I wanted to know is who would be in charge of Royals balancing and why they chose to do that. If they chose the reason as "nostalgic" so be it.
If something is most difficult, wouldn't it make sense to be most rewarding? I don't see anything wrong here. The game is designed for kids to begin playing maplestory as an adventure, if you want to go into leeching sure. Try it out on your NL with I guess vote funding and we will see where it takes you. Don't mention about selling leech first because the game wasn't designed (or balanced) for kids to sell leech and then create your NL. Sure in this server we do that but it will not be balanced for it. Ultimately my point is that (TLDR) Most difficult=most reward Easiest=least rewards Want to bring up nerf, play it as it should be first.
We're not kids anymore and there were plenty of adults playing this game during that time. We don't need to play by the same status quo from 15+ years ago. So people who have an easier early game shouldn't enjoy late game? If that's the case, nerf Bishops because they get to enjoy the entirety. And what about the other classes that also had the early game hard? Warriors, archers, etc. do they not deserve a great late game? Do you see what I'm saying here? My argument is why should mages and other classes suffer late game because they had it easier in the early game (which, btw, lots of classes don't have it easy in the early game, either). And don't give me the argument that "because they cost more". The reason they cost more is because they're broken to begin with. People just want to be stuck with "it was EXACTLY this way so we should keep it that way." No, the server has made changed because even they understand that a lot of things were poorly designed back then. If I train my own at least I'll have the luxury of bossing end game. If I train my mage, what else is there to do? If I train a another other class which is just as tough, why should I be less superior? Did I mention that most people leech here? Most people here don't "play it as it should be." I agree with your point of most difficult should gain the most reward but not the way the game has implemented it.
Nerf is the worst option to fix balance, it would be long to elaborate here, i will soon in a separate thread, but to start you have to think vastly on: "what would happen if my idea gets implemented?" Iactually think taht rebalance the "underpowered" jobs is better by giving them more utility/versatility/str8 power(depending on what the class actually needs. and its even better to rework/add content where every job has relevance. i have a thread were i try(bad redacted tbh) to explain why things like cwkpq makes other jobs actually really important, witouth taking anything out from bish and nls,and even giving them their spot to shine too. I used to think the same till a few months ago tbh, but ive have learned exactly what makes nls "overpowered" and found out that theres some jobs that are not actually that far behind and by consecuence doesnt even need a rework or buff or nothing tbh. just quoting this bcs youre not that far from truth in your other statements. This is not true, ANY resource in the world will be costly if the demand is higher than the offer, BUT, even if the demand is low, the price will stay high if the resource is rare or hard to get/process.Theres some things that even being barely decent, are going to have higher cost no matter what. Sticking to the topic. Do AMs need a buff? well.... yes and no at the same time. Why? well ams role isnt the same as bish overall, but their main role in game is also fullfilled by bishops aswell. So they are indeed underpower. Solution? LETS MAKE THEM RELEVANT AT BOSSING!.......erm no, if they would have atack power that could be dangerous for lowest atack classes like warriors and shads, bcs if they were actually atackers, they can fulfill the job of a bish in HT AND be an atacker for a low cost and on top of that being the best trainers/farmers in game.Not to mention that nobody eve think in wash an AM to be a SED target......it can do a good job there too. If you think that maake them viable would make their books price higher...u may be right! and what are the consecuences of it? 1.-Makes ZAK/HT even more profitable wich..we know what are the consecuences of this or 2.- Have to rework their SB to be low rate as gene. and after a while if having an AM gets costly they will become irrelevant again. Make them support class? Any boss pt will take just 1 support class, so making them somehow better as a support than a bishop either by give them an insane utility, or nerf bishops......both options seems terrible to me tbh. Being str8 honest.Yes AMs are underpowered in an overall sense, but theyre not an actually BAD job, theyre prety usefull if you know how to use them and where to use them. What changes do they need? Well give them some use wouldnt be bad. something like seal have a BIG coolddown, but being able to work everywhere would be something nice. Buffing CL and paralyze? maybe, why not. They have to stay at bottom dmg of course curerntly an AM deals a bit less of 50% the dmg that the lower dmg atakr does, so getting up to 70%( this means that if the lower dmg dealt by an atacker is 200k/sec and ams deals 100k per sec, wouldnt be that bad if they did 125-140k dmg per sec, but they have to stay at bottom dmg) ut that isnt going to change their position in boss relevance, altought it can make their life easier when the they do those crazy challenges. What can be EVEN BETTER? If they were places where AMs actually shine , and do a better job that bishops....well, if you look around that is probably that is alrdy done What if i want to main an AM, and i also want to boss? OFC!, ask your friends /guildies What if i want to be a strong atacker in ANY PT? Sorry, you made a bad choice, bcs that is not the purpose of Mages Coming from someone that mained an IL back in gms for over 10 years...i will never regret Relmy2
If there is a godly end-game blunt weapon the cost may be high, but if it doesn't sell for months the price will drop. Going back to your other points: I like them and I agree with them. Giving a class bossing relevance won't necessarily make them OP. There have been others fighting the same fight but I'm just going to give up because it seems like Royals is okay with the status quo. We shouldn't waste our energy anymore because they won't change anything regarding mages to make them even somewhat relevant as the worst bossers. Good Day.
I also main in i/l and be rejected by guilds which aiming on boss several times I sometimes feel sad that the mages are seen like tools or leeching machine There should be some ppl love mage as I do and want to boss and have fun with others. I'm so looking forward that the mage can be buffed on bossing. ty for all of u maplelovers
I would suggest for you,to look at @Shiratsuyu content in forums.....if you really love IL...dont give up
tyty I won't give up XD Just feel hard to find friends with my IL( much harder than my bs lol) And sometimes feel bad about this I'll keep loving it~
What if~ Max ice/fire demon temporarily increased para/chain and added short critical to ifrit/elquines damage vs bosses for a small window of time, so demon must be recast to deal the buffed damage? Increase demon mp/add hp cost to demon. That means almost all arches would be roughly in their 150s before they had a bossing build since basically all will max their ulti first for fast 120s training. Then some variation of demon/para or cl, another 20 levels, then summon, then probably reflect/infinity Making big bang push mobs back in either direction (like ninja ambush) after lvl 21, and fix the release cancel glitch, so they can shao Would give arches some bossing presence and options locked behind committed non linear builds, and would require them to invest in their alternative element wands, and boost the market to arch sbs
I support this change 100% ONLY if they nerf bliz/gen/meteor like they did in big bang- give it a 30 second cooldown.
Nobody is saying make para/cl godly, but arches deserve some bossing boost and ability, and not to have their class beholden to the stupid leeching meta
Am I the only one who is sad this is still in discussion? All we want is an extra line of damage T_T Smallest change just to make mages slightly less crap. For those who enjoy the class playing style, we can solo bosses like pap (or dojo) a little easier and have fun on our own. Or for friends doing fun boss runs, not be completely left in the dust DPS wise, and make it less of a farm/leech mule class. They were a viable bosser before 4th job, and then got left in the dust as a quick leveling class without any benifits of doing so. I just wanna play my mage as a main and it be viable and enjoyable.
Nice tag I have said a lot in other threads since I last posted here, and if this discussion reignites then maybe I'll quote them, but for now, what I will say, and this is not at all an appeal to conform or authority/tradition, but out of curiosity I like to see what other servers do to improve class skills, it's interesting. It's ultimately not that valuable though because most servers have gimmick rates or gimmick features that alter their native meta, but somewhat interesting nonetheless. Anyway, basically all of them do at least buff the primary 1v1 4th job skills of arches in some degree. I think a lot could be done to do this instead of just buff para/cl, but the simplest most straight forward is just focusing on para/cl. Bittersweet as the arch mage classes should have more depth than farming and simply getting their 1v1 skills buffed (bc imo its simplicity makes the buffed 1v1 too accessible to an already capable class, I just believe conditional/holistic buffs would make the whole class richer) but I think it's a good start.
This is why I think it's important element comp also gets a buff, so 3rd job mages have a stable 1v1 option for HH/BF/pap, since they won't have another decent 1v1 til after para/cl, which is likely 150 or 160. as well as a potential high level ele neutral staff (neutralizes element damage, like a defractor, or reverse prism, and be a possible additional weapon in a player's arsenal for the benefits of ele neutral damage, but would require materials and resources to make/scroll, perhaps only chaos scrolls work)
I'm just gonna say this right now, if AMs were buffed to make them more "viable" in bossing, I'd better see; 1. all these people who are so actively advocating for it to include mages in their boss runs 2. a whole lot more mages in bosses in general Else this is just a waste of time
