Sexism When Enforcing Rules Regarding "Sexist" Comments

To clarify, there were multiple reports and multiple bans. So it seems like we're talking about different cases. But to address this whole ordeal generally: as the evidence reported to us stands, all players from this particular set of cases banned for hate speech did not use the "c-word" in reference to one another, but in reference to a specific separate individual or entity. However, this is also exactly why the Ban Appeal process exists--to allow players to make a case as to why their ban is not justified. And appeals have successfully led to the revocation of both temporary and permanent bans for harassment alike. Especially considering the discretionary nature of harassment-related bans and the fact that evidence gathered in such cases may not always reflect the full story like I mentioned earlier, if those players genuinely believe that their usage of the "c-word" was specifically and exclusively directed to their friends, I encourage them to submit a ban appeal so that they may receive due justice.

To address the distinction between hate speech and harassment, they are separate and the bans related to the "c-word" were for hate speech. Like I said before, we don't consider the "c-word" immediately bannable without context the same way the "f-word" or the "n-word" would be. And in cases such as these there can be overlaps between the elements of the two rules, so I can understand what feels like a lack of clarity between these two rules. However, the most obvious solution to this to me would be to combine the two into a general harassment rule--which would seemingly bind y'all naughty troublemakers into more of a pickle. And as for the two players who have been permanently banned, the distinction is unfortunately moot as one was ban evading and the other has been on their final lifeline for a while now.

What I will say though is that there are legitimate avenues for change. I think like... four years ago lol I made the exact feedback someone mentioned earlier that a 3-strike policy for harassment seems unduly harsh, and I would personally still stand by it now as Staff. I will probably stop responding to further comments and questions--partly for my own sanity but also partly because I want the community to have an open platform to discuss what they believe may be necessary reforms to the server's rules without this constant back-and-forth with Staff about specific cases. But I also wanted to shed some transparency regarding how we approached this issue as Staff, and hopefully my comments have been helpful in shaping this conversation as it unfolds.

And as a last reminder, as always, please be kind to one another--both in this specific thread and in the overall community throughout.

 

LoL, now I understand why there are so many meme posts about ch18 fm recently.

Back to topic, personally, I never said bad words in the game because I don't want to be banned, but if someone is nasty and throws the profane language, I just simply ignore it. Ignorance is bliss.

I only report serious matters like hacking or RWT.

 

Since everything was handled in a mature and civil manner, I'm back to further discuss this issue.

If you want a real-life context on how I look at it. It will be something like all-chat = saying it loudly/shouting in the public. While whispers/messenger/secluded area conversations are areas where you can hold your conversation privately. Also, the context and legality of the conversation matter a lot.

(Legality of the conversation in a real-world setting)
Scenario A
A conversation that has nothing to do with me held in a public location, and if I happened to hear it, will I forward the info? The answer depends on the situation and whether if it is illegal in the real-world setting. If a conversation about a bank heist/terrorism is made, and I happen to hear it. Is it illegal? Yes. Does it affect me so much that I have to make a report? I'm not the one getting terrorize, so probably not. Will I still forward the info? Definitely.

Scenario B
Same context, but the conversation this time is not illegal in the real-world setting. Is it illegal? Nope. Does it affect me so much that I have to make a report? Definitely not. Will I still forward the info? Like what you said, only a creep will do this.

There used to be a saying that goes something like "If you have done nothing wrong, then there is nothing to worry about.". This saying has been ingrained in me ever since I was a child.

Back to the real-world setting once again, criminals launder money in real life through mediums like casinos and pubs (just to name a few). The reason people talk about money laundering privately than openly is because
1) The money that they obtained was illegal, they can't spend it freely. Because if they do, the authorities will be on them.
2) They have to "clean" the money before using it freely.
3) At least in my country, they don't provide source documents unless you require them to.

Back to the question that you asked (based on in-game context).
Ideally, it is advised to not even have any conversations that break the ToS. But if you really have to, then doing it privately might lower the chances of you getting caught/camped/stalked.
So,
Why should you worry about stalkers? -- I feel that you shouldn't worry about stalkers unless there is something illegal/personal with your conversation that affects the terms of this game/that you do not want the generic public to know.
Why do you need to find new places and "schedule meetings"? -- Unless you want to talk about something illegal/personal, I feel there shouldn't be a need to.

 

It seems like the majority here that dislike the rules around language is because that they or someone they know has been affected by them - fair (no one >likes< getting in trouble), but why are people so insistent on breaking the rules then? If you want to be vulgar, keep it to whispers or private chats how hard is that to comprehend or manage? If you want to write out a 98 page essay on why you hate this person and why they should fall off the face of the earth - take it to another medium to talk about don't do it on a platform that's catering to multiple age groups and types of people, most people agree this game is meant to be relaxing and a time killer - no one wants to be walking around reading "c**t, f**k, s**t," etc..

That's a lie, you literally just insulted that poster above you and I'll quote you where you did and if you don't see how you did then you should probably think about >HOW< you speak and type to people.

you just made an unjustified, SEXIEST assumption about that poster..in a thread trying to discuss sexism in the rules.

*clap clap*

On the real topic at hand - it takes CONCIOUS effort to type a word into chat, this is not a VOIP service, you can not get flustered, excited, ramped up and "accidently" say something negative, intrusive or insulting as a knee-jerk reaction. It has to be typed and sent, which takes way more conscious effort then accidently blurting something out in speaking.

When in public I assume most people here try to maintain a sense of healthy wellbeing and you aren't running around swearing in stranger's faces or saying anything that could be constituted as negative, so why do it on an online game then?

Regardless of your intentions through using profane or destructive language, just keep it to yourself, most people don't want to hear it or read it, so for general community health -> don't use it.. simple

If you grew up in Australia, the UK, or NZ you'd know that the C-word is an extremely versatile word with uses ranging from describing a close mate, to referring to the screw-driver that you just dropped behind the engine trying to stab the oil-filter out. It sounds harsh, it IS harsh and the word itself has very old ties in history to other words such as; "prostitute" "gropec**t lane" (which is EXACTLY what you think the streets were.."red-light" districts..)

Languages are just words, but language is all about context and the context in which lots of words are viewed have been cemented into our societies over hundreds of years.

 

Remind me who are you to be calling me a liar?
I got 0 intention of lying to people and I always say what I think. I’ve explained @Aestel that I gave my honest opinion about this matter (the specific sentences above) and never meant to hurt him in person-even said I'm sorry for my vulgarity.

How is that sexist lmfao ik women who claim that
If you wanna teach me anything about sexism you can go look for articles and forward them
You don’t know me and seems like you just trying to heat things up since we agreed this discussion is in good terms.

 

Most people don't know anyone on these fourms (really KNOW them..) , so you should be speaking to people with respect and not assuming that they are one to belittle women and their choices when you know nothing about their personal lives (and if you do, even more of a reason to NOT post something like that), it's obvious you were assuming the poster was a male other-wise you wouldn't of used that line which is most commonly used as an attempt by males to justify why they can stare and encroach on a women's physical figure and personal life? Do women also use that line..yes but I don't doubt the massive majority are males so don't try and hula-hoop around that. Remember language is all about context and the context of that line very much constitutes you assuming the poster was male and that they insulted females, especially by the standards of assuming that they use; "If you don't want to get harassed don't wear cleavage" towards females.

I'm not trying to heat things up, my quotes on you were only 1 part of my reply to the original poster, it's the fact that you blatantly lied when you stated that you "Never had the intention to insult you" to the other poster, after you just insulted them? No one likes lies, people are going to call people out on it.

 

Bro you’re assuming stuff about me and accusing me of stuff I didn’t say and didn’t mean to say(that’s immature btw).
Everything was handled with respect towards the other and you’re just trying to make me look bad well not today honey
Why tf u tryna educate me get a life

 

On the topic of "tak[ing] it to another medium" please let the fact that the two original players in question maturely resolved their differences be the end of it. There's a lot of productive discussion to be had here and I really don't want to have to lock this thread due to personal arguments.

 

The OP stated that he isn't friends with the people banned, and even though I complained about the consistency of the rules, I never stated that my friends shouldn't be banned. They've certainly done some stupid stuff and could have done without it. I agree that they could keep their vulgar words to private chats, but is it fair that there are certain people who try to infiltrate their private chats (Discord)? I mean you all keep saying "keep it to private chats" but there are CERTAIN PEOPLE who want to stick their noses everywhere and apparently private chats are no longer acceptable once screenshots come out when our Discord is supposedly a "safe space."

 

You can't educate someone that doesn't want to learn. I won't be responding to you here anymore, it's obvious all YOU want to do is cause issues by insulting people and then playing the victim here lmfao. It's also extremely rude on both our parts to continue this in a thread for discussing rules, if you want to further discuss anything with me send me a PM (I'm under 50 posts so I can't)

 

please tell me youre joking

 

Back to the original topic; this whole discussion of the "c-word" is absurd to be honest. Our Australian friends would be scratching their heads right now.

I guess it is proper to frame the conversation a bit for a sanity check. The "c-word" isn't racist or homophobic, I suppose it is perceived as sexist in the context of the recent bans.

I'm going to use anecdotal evidence here, but I would be surprised if it isn't the cultural norm. I have never heard the "c-word" used in a sexist manner; I've only heard it used as a simple pejorative. Often times it's used casually and amongst friends, similar to dick or the f-word(not the homophobic one). I don't claim to be an etymologist, but neither of those has sexist connotations, only sexual.

The "c-word" has never been used to otherise women in society, not in the same manner that the n-word or f-word(homophobic) have. If it has been, please educate me. In fact, I would argue that "female dog" is MORE sexist than the "c-word".

However, I'm just an idiotic American giving his two cents.

 

This is something that has been discussed for several years

 

It's really interesting to see this issue stem back so far (I've seen a few over the years, but I've been inactive for a couple)

I don't think the staff have had anymore members blatantly acting like that one did in terms of speaking and how they engage with players (the one in the post you linked, correct me if I'm wrong and if there have been others) Nor do I think you would get into trouble for having a >valid, authentic< discussion about sexual content as long as it's kept appropriate and within legal-boundaries, and no one is uncomfortable.

It's once people start bringing other people into it and where it's done, where the issues mainly stem. This is how I see it, personally and what I follow.

Use a derogative term in FM - someone reports you = ban
Use a derogative term in Zakum Altar - no one reports you = possible ban if chat logs are ever reviewed for any purposes.
Use a derogative term outside the server (and on nothing RELATING to the server or about the server) = no ban.

It's an easy thing to grasp regardless of how you FEEL about the rules (because as we know, feelings aren't EVERYTHING and sometimes in life we have to suck up what we don't want to feel and do it anyway)

Words are powerful things, and they affect some people more than others, so EVEN if the majority of people are adults on the server or at least above the age of 13, why can't we keep it clean? Swearing and using crude language in games is the equivalent of going to a public chess desk and swearing up and down all game at your opponent (in my opinion)

 

This thread alone, was more interesting than Biden vs Trump.

 

A staff already explained that the exclusive usage of the "c-word" phrase isn't a bannable offense. What mattered is the context in which the terms were used and to whom it referred. If it's casually used and directed between friends who share its casual meaning and intention, there's no harm. We just heard that based on the reports concerning the recent two ban cases, the "c-word" wasn't directed at either of the friends but to an external individual, who of course doesn't have the same understanding of the terms. Things went worse in Don's case because he had a record of an obvious attempt to bypass the racial slur in an identical manner. Based on the replies to the ban appeal, I can make an educated guess that there were more insults before/after the actual "c-word" which elucidated the intention behind its usage.

 

Of course intent and context matters, I don't have a problem with how that ban appeal was handled.

 

sounds like someone i know

 

I really find this thread fascinating. I am an African American and I regularly use "n-a" in my lexicon and got reported and banned for using it once, but I harshly condone people using the hard "-er" variation as it has 400 years of history behind it that demeaned and subjugated my people for generations (and still so). However, throughout my time on this server, I have seen people say some off-putting or vulgar language. The rules on language in a server that has no filter are very cloudy imo. I think this is some good discourse for the betterment of the server.

 

I am writing this as one of the several members of Fendi who was banned for the use of the "c-word." The intent of this is not to attack any staff members but to simply have some clarification and justice in the way in which things were handled.

After reading all of the replies within this forum post, there seems to be some inconsistency and questions that I still have, especially for the Staff.

1) There were a handful of Fendi members that were banned for 3 to 4 days because they used the "c-word" in all chat. Not everyone who was banned used the word with malicious intention but they were still punished for it.

The argument that you've made here is why we did not appeal when we felt like it was not fair. Many of us are already unbanned because it was only 3 days. You've suggested for us to make a ban appeal but the question is that did the staff who banned these members look at the context in which the "c-word" was used before banning them? If they did, they could see that the "c-word" was being used in a manner of bantering with each other as friends. My question is what was the reasoning behind banning several people who used the "c-word?" Is it because of malicious intention? Or is it simply because we said the word in all-chat and other bystanders who were not involved used that advantage to report us. Where is the consistency in your ruling about these bans? Also, does the Staff not look at the whole context before banning? Why do the players have to make ban appeals to get the justice they deserve when this could have been prevented if the staff simply looked at the full picture?

2) Did the staff look at the whole story before banning these selected individuals? What I mean by that is the same people who are reporting are the ones targeting CH 18 FM and in essence, harassing members of Fendi. There have been times where this specific group has planted spies in both our guild and discord to try to get information from us to get us banned. Even when they were confronted with this information, they denied that the spy was their own until they were brought forth evidence. Besides one member, none of our members had any history of prior bans. We aren’t like them. We didn’t feel the need to be petty at the time until they decided to plant spies in CH 18 FM to craft a malicious narrative to get Fendi members banned without including the whole context of the conversation. Are these actions not considered harassment? Why are they being allowed to abuse the report system to get people banned?

Also, if you were banning people based off of intention then how come you did not consider the people who were making the reports? Their intention was to get those members banned, not because they took offense to what was said. They’re abusing the reporting system to get the people who they do not like to be banned.

3) As people with authority and power within this server, did you guys feel like these bans were justified? Did you guys feel like these bans were warranted and fair? I personally want to ask each staff member to look at the WHOLE situation from both parties and make a collective effort to understand our frustration and why we felt like it was only being looked at from one perspective and not the other. If these bans were justified then why did several members of our community who were not involved or have any relations to either party feel the need to speak up about this matter?

No one is perfect, but this group of friends really made my experience within the mapleroyals community much more enjoyable and memorable. Some people see it as a game. Sure, it’s simply a game. But for those of us who joined during the inception of the pandemic, with no expectations, formed new experiences and friendships that will forever be cherished in our hearts. We are all so close outside of the game that in the end, this game already fulfilled its purpose. I am just vocally expressing my frustration with the unclear ruling for this c*word and how the truly toxic members of the community are playing victim/justifying their actions.