I remember a long time ago, someone in my alliance was talking about how it was inefficient to do full boss runs (to Panda) if they aren't able to kill Manon~Papulatus in a certain time-frame and suggesting that runs to Crimson Balrog or Manon/Leviathan were more time efficient. With the change of 1/1 to mana drain, I've noticed attempts at full boss runs take exceedingly longer to complete due to Papulatus (and to a lesser degree Panda, Manon, Griffey). So what I'm wondering is.. what's the efficiency/analysis of Party Dojo runs right now? (excluding doing full boss runs for cards)
1-2 attackers leave at Manon 3 attackers leave at Papu 3 attackers +1BS can kill papu or just leave 4-5 attackers +1BS can panda in no time Don’t worry too much about new 1/1 Because BS has OP mana recovery always able to heal you even after 1/1. Don’t forget to turn off your Magic Guard because Papu won’t be able to kill you without MG. You won’t get any hit by Papu after 1/1. Papu will sleep for approximately 3 seconds. You have enough time walk to the left corner and ask BS for heal. It is always good to learn Panda’s skill to avoid damage from panda when not having enough Bamboo Rains to take him down. With experienced partners you can do full run in 6-8 minuets. Better than solo and leave at Manon. However, with noob partners and not willing to learn I can just say GOOD LUCK !
I don't need tips on doing Dojo. I've already obtained 4 Black Belts over the course of two characters. You're missing what I'm saying and it might be because I wrote a confusing OP. What I'm looking for is the efficiency or the analysis of Party Dojo runs.
I completely disagree with the point that 4-5 atkers + BS can pap/panda in no time. Since the new 1/1, atkers are also left w/o mana which renders them useless, increasing the time required to kill pap by a significant margin. I haven’t gathered much data yet but I’ll try to in the next few days. From pure gut feeling however, I feel like no matter what the party is, it is more efficient to stop at manon/griffey than to keep going until the end. cheers
let's say mano -> flying balrog (1-27) as dojo segment A, which gives 95 pts in time X say manon, griffey, leviathan (28-30) as dojo segment B, which gives 30 pts in time Y then pap, panda (31-32) as dojo segment C, which gives 40 pts in time Z .. got these point values here: quit at manon or continue to leviathan? for it to be worth it to continue to manon, griffy, leviathan, the rate of point accumulation in segment B must greater or equal to the rate of point accumulation in all the earlier stages of the dojo (segment A) so for it to be worth it to dojo to leviathan (kill leviathan), 30/Y must be >= 95/X .. so (0.315)X >= Y so if you can do manon -> leviathan in less than 32% of the time it takes too get from mano -> flying balrog, it's worth it to continue to leviathan (ignoring the time to reenter the dojo) quit at pap or finish pq? for it to be worth it to kill pap and panda vs. stopping at pap, rate of point acc. in seg C must be greater or equal to rate of point acc. in all earlier stages (A+B) so for it to be worth it to dojo to panda (kill panda), 40/Z must be >= (95+30)/(X + Y) .. so (0.32)Z >= X + Y so if you can do pap and panda in less than 32% of the time it takes to get from mano -> leviathan, it's worth it to continue to panda and finish the dojo (ignoring the time to reenter the dojo) maybe someone can time the amount of time it takes solo and with an experienced party to do segments A/B/C and post their values
I tried to do an attempt on my bishop. Party members are: 122 Bucc 138 BM 146 BS 139 Sair 151 MM 146 Shad Run #1 Spoiler (1-27) as dojo segment A, which gives 95 pts in time 3mins 46secs | 3:46 (28-30) as dojo segment B, which gives 30 pts in time 1mins 54secs | 3:46~5:40 (31-32) as dojo segment C, which gives 40 pts in time 3mins 12secs | 5:51~9:03 *Party defeated at Panda* Run #2 Spoiler (1-27) as dojo segment A, which gives 95 pts in time ~3mins 58secs | 4:48 [20sec delay @1:26, 30sec delay @4:01] (28-30) as dojo segment B, which gives 30 pts in time 1mins 54secs | 4:48~ 6:59 (31-32) as dojo segment C, which gives 40 pts in time 5mins 1secs | 7:17~12:18 *Party defeated at Panda* Run #3 Spoiler (1-27) as dojo segment A, which gives 95 pts in time ~3mins 55secs | 34 [added ~21 secs due to late recording] (28-30) as dojo segment B, which gives 30 pts in time 2mins 0secs | 3: 34~5: 34 (31-32) as dojo segment C, which gives 40 pts in time 4mins 44secs | 5:53~10: 37 *Party defeated at Papulatus* Run #4 Spoiler (1-27) as dojo segment A, which gives 95 pts in time 3mins 59secs | 3:59 (28-30) as dojo segment B, which gives 30 pts in time 2mins 5secs | 3:59~6:04 (31-32) as dojo segment C, which gives 40 pts in time 2mins 57secs | 6: 37~9: 34 *Party defeated at Panda* ------------ Looking at my party clear of (1~27) Dojo segment A and estimating it up to 4 minute clear time, I can assume that my party gains 1 dojo pt per 2.5secs (240secs/95 = 2.526.. secs per Dojo pt). With this, to be efficient, my party would need to: Clear Manon~Leviathan within ~1min 16secs Clear Papulatus~Panda within ~1min 41secs
I don't have any recorded numbers myself but I'm pretty sure lvl 150+ parties make doing the entire dojo more efficient than leaving at Pap. Personally, I have a shadower so I smokescreen at pap and my party finishes killing before my smoke ends (~smoke lasts 90 sec I think?). Usually we have 4 ults to instakill panda, else it only takes a few hits to kill it after 3 ults. I don't believe we clear Manon~Leviathan within 1min and 16 sec though, as Manon and Griffey are low hp but Leviathan has significantly more (about 1-2min to finish I'd estimate, since I solo leviathan in about 5min).
Thank you for replying. It's good to see that you're optimistic about lv150+ parties being able to clear Dojo more efficiently given that the runs I recorded weren't successful . I'm aware that Shadowers allow a smoother run at Pap but we can't always assume there'll be a shadower in every Dojo party. Even so, it'd be ideal to have a recorded run of a lv150+ or near lv200 party run as the post I wrote was done with ~lv12x-15x members. I'd like to encourage you and the people who agreed with you (@axcers @Diphenhydramine @Alstero ) to possibly record a lv150+ run if you (or you guys) are lv150+ attacker(s) and looking to Dojo. I'm willing to do the segment/timestamps if you're just only willing to bring the goods
I found a random Dojo run Jan 2nd 2021: Run: Spoiler (1-27) as dojo segment A, which gives 95 pts in time ~3mins 38secs | ~3:55 [Add 3 seconds due to recording delay, 21sec delay @ 2: 34] (28-30) as dojo segment B, which gives 30 pts in time ~1mins 23secs | 3:55~5:18 (31-32) as dojo segment C, which gives 40 pts in time 2mins 1secs | 5:21~7:22 Looking at this party clear of (1~27) Dojo segment A and estimating it down to 3 minute 30sec clear time, I can assume that this party gains 1 dojo pt per 2.2secs (210secs/95 = 2.21.. secs per Dojo pt). With this, to be efficient, this party would need to: Clear Manon~Leviathan within ~1min 6secs Clear Papulatus~Panda within ~1min 28secs
It seems even a coordinated ~lv160 dojo pt falls almost a minute short of having the point/time rate of a full dojo run be superior to restarting at Manon. Which is unfortunate, because stages 28-32 are fun with a good party, and involve interesting mechanics, like managing charge and dealing with 1/1s without potions. Maybe these observations could be used in support of redistributing or increasing dojo points given in certain stages, to reward strong and communicative parties able to complete full runs. It's not sensible for rush dojo to be more efficient in terms of points/time when the party is well-equipped to deal with pap and panda.
Thanks for the timing numbers on the efficiency for completing dojo. But I noticed having 2 shadowers in the party along with 3 attackers and 1 BS is the best combination. Having 2 shadowers allow for back to back dojo runs with smokescreen available at papu which is crucial as it delays the vulernability window of 1/1. A strong party will be able to kill pap in one smoke + 2~3 bamboo on pap. There's an alternative which is to add a bucc or warrior, preferably pallies and heroes because these 2 classes can have high dps output while negating 1/1 from papu (sorry drks, but berserk will mean 50% less hp so drks typically can't consistently pump out the damage but a good addition nonetheless, just not as effective as heroes and pallies at papu stage). The strategy for warriors will be to pin papu >> and touch it's body constantly so 1/1 will not hit them as they are in recovery frames from the body touch damage.
My opinion is that a party shouldn't be forced to run with 1~2 Shadowers just to have efficient runs (especially after the 1/1 change) given that they have to struggle to obtain a Bishop (who's essential to the run) and also almost always an SE main too. I agree with @whitemagejames 's post. It seems quite clear that from Manon~Panda, parties may not be getting the adequate amount of points they deserve with the amount of strength and effort gathered. @LichWiz gave a post on buffing Dojo point distribution before. It may be time to revisit that thread and possibly access what would be a recommended buff to Dojo (as far as points go).
This thread is super interesting, and I really enjoy the numbers and things added to it. Yes, min-maxing efficiency is often done on this server, so I'm not surprised (and actually enjoy) that we can talk about one of the smaller aspects of the server and how we can make it efficient. In my opinion, if you are doing dojo purely for the belt, then yes, you should figure out your points per minute and do that accordingly. More funded/higher level players will achieve better points per minute when clearing parts B and C, whereas less funded/lower level players can achieve a pretty good points per minute just from leaving after part A. I personally like dojo how it is, it's rewarding to put time into something and get something back. But it does seem that the only good reward for clearing the entire dojo rather than leaving early is to get the monster card that can possibly drop at the end (since the exp gained from completing dojo is pretty small). Even something as little as some power elixirs/elixirs from completing dojo (20 per run or so) would be a huge push towards trying to complete the entirety of dojo without forcing players to do so if they care more about point efficiency. Personally, I wouldn't want to change any core functionalities to dojo as it is. It's challenging and promotes party play. It has a niche meta and lots can be experimented on for an optimal run. It's gameplay is good as it stands (minus some quality of life things maybe, such as paps spawns dropping pots even if they self destruct). If the goal here is to give players a reason to try to complete the full PQ instead of leaving early for efficiency, I would say we can accomplish that by giving the pots incentive I mentioned above. With that said, changes to dojo would probably be on the back-burner for a bit as we have other pressing changes that we are looking at. If the community feels strongly about this, maybe we can gather more ideas/input and push it up the queue.
No one is saying to change any core functionalities or whatever you're going on about. The results of the thread is that Dojo parties aren't getting the adequate points they should be getting in the later parts of Dojo and whitemagejames made a good response post for that: I do not understand why you were getting so defensive in the Q&A instead of listening in. Your goal as a GM shouldn't be a Yes-man and defend everything Staff deems okay or "fine in our eyes" as you told me. Become neutral and Question. I'll give you what I wrote before in the staff team change thread, which is: I hope you take this as a lesson that players might be alerting you to something under the radar. I also encourage you to review the (2) staff team change threads and possibly review how to take feedback from a Game Design perspective. Additionally, you said: This is exactly why I said YOU should make a feedback thread for it. Making a feedback doesn't mean its set up for the patch to be done. A GM making a feedback thread simply means that they're taking input and trying to encourage the community for it. If you as an intern is barred from doing such an action, just say so so that we as a community know that GMs are discouraged by Staff to not make any feedback threads at all.
Fair, no one said that, but I also want to be clear that I also don't want the core functions to change, so we can agree here? -edit: I also don't see how any of my comments are irrelevant to this thread as you seem to be implying? I agree that dojo points can be skewed, but I think a better solution than increasing dojo points would be to give another incentive to completing the dojo. I'm confused? I didn't think I was being defensive or a "Yes-man" that defends staff in everything? I stated my opinion on how I see dojo as is. Not how staff as a whole see's dojo. The reason why I asked you to make a feedback thread is because I personally don't think it needs to be changed? And if it were to get a change, I would argue for something small like a potions reward at the end of the PQ. The reason why it's better for you to make the feedback thread is because it's something more interesting for you, and you are more passionate about it than me. So you would be able to drive the conversation more than I ever could.
I don't know much about dojo run times, but it would be nice if the number of points given at the end of the dojo run was a bit more, so doing the last stages (the 10% of dojo that ISN'T a walking simulator) actually feels rewarding for someone who doesn't need the monster card. Even extra exp/rewards might also be welcome. I'm not sure about taking away points from earlier stages though, it will make things more difficult for weaker parties/solo people to get points. Some general tips because people dying when they should not be really gets frustrating: Spoiler: Manon/grif Manon/grif: I don't think 1/1 is a problem in manon and griffey unless you are unlucky to get it before you position properly. If you are ranged you can stand and attack entirely out of the manon/grif attack/stun range and take 0 damage. If you're melee just take the touch damage (I do this on my bishop too to avoid 1/1, but only because I'm washed and don't need to mg) to avoid 1/1. If you're melee and your pt isn't clearing these two bosses fast enough for you to not die even when the mobs spawn pots, then it's probably better to quit and just do up to manon. If you have a bishop in pt: don't make the bs die trying to take care of you. You might be used to bishops being your slaves and going to you to hs/heal, but if you're 1 hp and not moving towards your bishop (who is trying to stay safe out of the 1/1 range) for heals, it is your fault. If I'm on bishop, I personally like staying on the boss taking touch damage so I can heal my melees without them having to run to the side to get heals (but your bishop has to be able to tank touch damage for that to work, or you could do it with MG on, tho you'll run oom fast), and so I can hit the boss a little to charge my bar. But then all these SE/NL are getting 1/1 outside of my heal range (they are standing too close to the boss yet too far for heals), then expecting the bish to run to them to heal them, even tho it exposes their bish to danger. Stop it please. Spoiler: Pap Pap: I'm a washed shad/bish so I literally stand on pap to avoid 1/1, but I've also seen warriors rush into pap right before 1/1 to avoid it. That might help you last you a while longer. I have no idea what ranged classes can do to avoid 1/1, but what you should NOT do is to stand close enough to pap to get dispelled/stunned, wasting your limited dps time. It can't be helped for melee classes, but nls asking for se every time pap casts dispel makes me want to throw a chair at them. If you have no smoke and no bishop (or even if you have a bish, maybe), rush pap to the right side once it appears if possible, so that dying people have a safe spot to sit in at the left side of the map. If you get 1 mp-ed but have heals from a bishop, either go sit on a chair at the safe spot to heal mp, or if your special isn't fully charged but close to being charged, go normal attack the boss (if you won't die) to charge your bar. Don't stand next to the boss doing nothing thinking you're being pretty, you are only being useless. Spoiler: Panda Panda: Nothing much to say other than look at the animations and try your best to avoid the skills: this is easier for ranged classes since you only need to avoid the falling stuff and and jump over the yellow attack thing it throws. I think you can sort of jump and avoid its melee attack too, but unsure. Other than that, remember that it casts physical/magical DR and seduce/zombify alternately (if it's physical DR now, next DR will be magic. If it just casted seduce, remember to be careful to not panic heal when it does seduce/zombify animation next since it will be zombify). Wait for the reflect icon and play safe if you don't know which reflect it just cast. For bishops: remember what the panda's zombify animation is even if it's the only thing you know. Don't rush to heal, your team being at 1hp doesn't mean they'll die immediately (or you can res them later), but you healing them during zombify will surely cause you and others to die. The zombify icon appears late, so if it just did the zombify/seduce animation (which looks the same) and no one is sprawled on the floor like they do during sed, do not heal!! If you get sed and are dying, well.. too bad. I guess you ded. More about dojo in this nice dojo guide someone made: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/mu-lung-dojo-completion-guide-lv-12x-15x.136432/ Edit: can we be nice to the gms if they are only stating their personal opinions from playing and not exactly ignoring what we have to say. They may be speaking from their experience as a player (which we should value) and not exactly saying that staff is against any changes we have regarding things.
