Re-considering Marksman vs Nightlord

Hi guys,

I am trying to reconsider if I am "doing Nightlord right".

I recently made a decision, after reading much bowman vs NL discussion on the forums,
it seemed to be clear that NL DPS is far ahead of bowman, by a huge margin.
I focused my fundings on NL rather than MM, and today I just dumped a few billions into the NL

HOWEVER...
I tested my NL vs Marksman on krex (solo), its very disappointing to find that having so much funding on the NL, it still lost to Marksman, the details:

NL:
lv 174
Claw: RC 19 Luk 91 Atk (Lent, I dont own this)
Pendant: silver deputy star (clean)
hat: zak helm 28dex 17 LUK
top: 5dex 23 LUK
btm: 21 dex 4 LUK
Star: mostly Ilbi (27 atk)
Cape: 12 atk PGC
glove: 14 atk mitten
shoe: 11atk FS

overall stats (MW10)
dex: 146
Luk: 971
Range: 3241~5749

marksman:
lv 188
Crossbow: Dark Crow: 10 Dex 128 Atk
Pendant: MoN (all stat 5, 3 atk)
hat: zak helm 16 str 35dex
ov: 10 str 31 dex
Arrow: Blue arrows(10 atk)
Cape: 12 atk PGC
glove: 14 atk mitten
shoe: 11atk FS

overall stats (MW10)
str: 116
dex: 1071
Range: 6956~7704

the Key comparison was done by solo-ing krex, whoever takes lesser time wins, details are:
NL: MW10, SE
MM: MW10, SE

Both NL and MM re-positions (MM doesnt take the safe spot/no-knockback spot in krex)
The NL has huge unfair advantage over MM:
1. NL has SE support, MM doesnt get SI
2. NL gets avoidability advantage as MM doesnt abuse the safe spot in krex.

However,
the NL barely be on par with MM even with so much funding:
krex solo result: both takes ~90min to solo both eyes
In both cases, no atk pot was used (no stopper / apple / gelt)

It is quite disappointing dumping a few billions on HP washing upfront (NL's requirement to use fresh AP), yet the DPS is barely better than Marksman.
In this case the NL is 14 levels below Marksman, but it has perfect RC which should make up the level difference. In fact I think leveling up 14 times will not drastically change the DPS

I've seen NL megaphones to join HT, marketing 8k range.
How do I even reach that range? I have (lent) perfect RC, and decent cape/glove/shoes. yet my range is far behind 8k?

I am unsure if again I should stop funding the NL seeing it as a failed investment.
I equally like both Marksman and NL. just that I switch around when I get bored

 

Additional info:

I was told 5.7k clean range at lv174 is Low.
I simply can't understnad this, even with perfect rc and "average" cape/shoe/gloves it is still low?
does that mean the average NL will all have like 20 atk cape/glove/shoes?

 

While the amount of funding is relative, MMs will definitely outperform NLs at the given parameter, especially when you are not using any attack potions.

This is likely due to the high damage output of Snipe that is unaffected much, if not at all, by the MM's attack range, coupled with the scalability of NL's damage output with its attack range (due to the double critical multiplier). Try the experiment again with both characters using Onyx Apples for the entire run, the results will likely differ.

In simpler words,
MM > NL at lower attack range.
NL > MM at higher attack range.

Here's a graphical representation.


NL is a very expensive (and competitive) class to play. Given their lack of utility in parties, it is no surprise that people will only take a NL with a high attack range. To achieve an attack range of 8k at level 200, you will probably need 50 attack gears (cape, shoes, gloves) paired with a perfect Red Craven. I'd recommend you try out classes with utility, such as Buccaneer (Speed Infusion), Bowmen (Sharp Eyes), Paladin (Total Crash), or even other classes that have their unique utility in certain bosses as people might overlook your attack range for the value you add to the party.

While the videos may no longer be available, you can always refer to this thread to gauge how different classes fare against each other in a solo Krex (they are really really really really funded by the way). As seen from the numbers, at end game parameters, the NL outperforms the MM dramatically at 11 : 38 and 16 : 58 respectively.

 

oh by the way, you aren’t 5.7k clean. clean is commonly referred to your range with mw20. also, your gears are decent. you just need to use mw20 and onyx apples and your nl will go “ez white”.

 

nicky was spot on with everything, just wanna add that luk is often overlooked in clean range but plays a HUGE role in nl TT damage.
try build ur nl with luk earrings, luk face, luk belt, luk rings, luk pendant and u see crazy improvements

 

When people say clean range, they mean with the MW that they have on their character, and that’s usually MW20. So you’d be at 6k range at least.

Next, other than your perfect RC the rest of your gear is average/below average. While weapon attack from your RC gives you a bit of range, LUK plays a huge role in the TT damage formula, so yes 14 levels of LUK is a massive difference in DPS. Weapon attack is more beneficial the higher level you are. Another thing is that apples lag longer on NLs. When other attackers use 1 apple and finish the rest with stoppers, you can apple all the way through and that helps a lot.

You’re missing:
-A way better helm (35+ dex, higher luk)
-A better glove (compared to the rest of your gear, a 14 glove is underwhelming)
-Either a decent MoN or HTP
-Earrings
-Eye accessory
-Face accessory
-Medal
-Belt
-4 available ring slots

 

Thanks for this explanation, I find it very difficult to justify the amount of investment into the NL, yet disappointing results.
I probably overlooked the fact that snipe has a flat damage regardless of gears/level. However, if snipe is really that good, it still doesn't justify why i never whited in any bosses, does it mean everytime I join a zak/cwkpq, the NLs are always god-tier funding?

I will however farm some apples and experiment this again.

 

The reason why I kind of ignored the level difference is that, I previously (before switching INT back to LUK), had 240 base INT, and that hits about 17k (crit with SE) on krex per line on krex eye.
Switching all 240 INT back to LUK increased the damage per line to about 27k.

if 240 LUK yields only 10k damage output, I don't think 14*5 LUK is going to be a game changer.

Regarding eqs, is there any reason you recommend LUK over dex?

 

Your dex/luk is fine, you have just slightly over 140, just enough to wear a craven. Any additional dex from the minimum required to wear your claw only increases avenger/normal attack damage and not triple throw damage.

You could optimise your nl further by wearing a mon or a htp and then converting any extra dex to luk by either resetting or changing gears.

Also, I predict your nl would do more damage than your MM after using gizer (these are DPS numbers):

 

marksman op that's why /thread

 

It's kinda obvious why the nl was weak, no has low base atk so it's very reliant on attacking pots.
Mm is the opposite since it has huge base atk clean and snipe is unaffected by range

If you used apples you would white the mm easily