Content Add Pieces of Time to ToT mobs + Reverse Weapons Crafting

Your points are valid. I think that a not insignificant amount of people that voted "against" may share these concerns regardless. I of course am for the implementation. The main point I was trying to make was that it's good to have alternatives to gach-only endgame weapons.

While we are on the topic of reverse weapons and level up system, I think an interesting idea would be a system that resets exp on reverse weapons. It could work something like:
Pay 250 mil + etc items to reset your weapon's level. That way the variance of level up is still there, but feels less bad for perfect weapons to get bad rolls on level-up. Not trying to derail the thread, just an idea.

 

That would defeat the purpose of recollecting pieces of times and re-crafting.
Since these weapons would be the true end-game weapons, it should be difficult to obtain truly perfect ones (perfect stats from godly system + perfect stats from leveling weapon).

 

Okay, let's discuss the specifics of the implementation.

Throw out the leveling system for now. According to @FeiLongHuang 's Dragon Shiner Bow Crafting thread:
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/dragon-shiner-bow-crafting-project-statistical-record.192515/
A Reverse Engaw is 5 attack better than a DSB. On average, it would take 100/(0.682+0.545+0.409+0.273+0.136) = 48.9 attempts to create an Engaw better than DSB.

The materials required for Reverse Engaw Crafting are:

1. 5 Orihalcon Plate
2. 20 Advanced Monster Crystal 2
3. 14 Advanced Monster Crystal 3
4. 45 Piece of Time
6. 550k meso

Let's ignore Advanced Monster Crystals and assume that Piece of Time is the limiting factor here. Let's also assume that MapleRoyals admins want players to touch grass, and it would take ~4 hours to gather 45 Piece of Time. That's way easier than getting materials for Crimson Arclancer, but again, touch grass.
So ~49 days of farming 4 hours a day you have, on average, a clean Engaw better than perfect DSB. Assuming you could have been farming quad ulu 1 at 250 mil/h(generous), that's 49 bil you just spent on a clean Engaw. Ignoring the opportunity cost, I think that's a fair price. A perfect clean DPS (45 bil) is right around that ball park.

What about a perfect Reverse Engaw?
100/0.136 = 735.3 attempts on average.
So 2 years of farming 4 hours a day later, you have, on average, a perfect clean Engaw. Unrealistic, but it's a perfect Engaw so okay whatever. Go ahead and spend 2 years on +5 attack!

So you have your clean Engaw that's better than perfect DSB. Bring in the leveling system, time to level it up! For only weapon attack, there's a (1/7) = 0.1428% chance of each +0/1/2/3/4/5/6 attack roll possibility. Considering you just spent 49 days or 49 bil farming for better-than-DSB Engaw, I think it's completely fair to be able to reroll level ups for a 250-500 mil investment, plus the time that you need to level up the reverse weapon.

Then there's perfect Reverse overalls. Good luck!

So what point am I trying to make with this useless math and rambling? I think that the leveling system could be improved upon.

 

I think this argument comes more from a perfectionist perspective (I am not sure the casual player's hourly potential value is 250m).
You should take into consideration that the majority of players are casuals and that they might craft just a few weapons just for the sake of having a decent weapon (which otherwise would cost them a few billions in buying an already existing weapons in the market, which they wouldn't be able to get in a few days because their hourly potential is way less than 250m).

 

The only argument I'm making is that the GMS Reverse/Timeless level up system is not good. Otherwise I'm doing some rough analysis of what the potential implementation could look like. Alright, let's look at reverse equipment from a casual perspective.

The obvious comparison for reverse weapons is the Crimson Arclancer. Should reverse equipment be easier to farm than a Crimson Arclancer? Maybe, maybe not. I would hazard a guess that if reverse equipment was added, it would not be easier to farm. As it is, only hardcore players are attempting to craft Arclancers in a meaningful capacity, and they are tradeable. As it is, it would be advisable for casual players to simply save up the 1 bil for a finished ~125 attack nisrock, rather than attempt crafting and scrolling a decent Arclancer. So then how long should farming for a reverse equip take? Any players that have crafted an Arclancer, please chime in and let us know how long it takes. @ASOBOU

It would be beneficial if reverse equipment was simultaneously a viable option for both casual and hardcore players. If a casual player could craft a decent weapon for themself, I would not be opposed to that. But realistically, I think that level 100 and Dragon weapons would be a better option for casual players than reverse weapons, simply due to the cost and effort. I don't think casual players are the sort that farms for weapon crafting, they would rather save up on vote NX, sell APR or gacha, and buy a finished weapon.

Comparing saving 1 bil for a 125 nisrock vs. hypothetically crafting a reverse Engaw:
So you spent x days/hours on farming for a 105 Engaw. Nice! Here are you options:
1. 100% event scrolls. This gets you to 119 attack. You can level it up to possibly 125 attack. Not bad!
2. 30% scrolls. Not advisable. Say you pass one and finish with 100%s. 128 potential with item leveling. You would have to be unrealistically lucky.
Would you rather guarantee that your 1 bil of effort gets you a 125 bow, or roll the dice that your 1 bil effort leaves you with a below average Engaw? Then roll the dice again with item leveling. Then roll the dice again with 30% scrolls. Let's not mention booming.

The big kicker, though, is that you can't trade your Engaw after you equip it. The casual player is stuck with an item with no resale value. Highly inadvisable. I would never recommend Reverse weapon crafting for casual players solely on this basis.You also have to allocate more base stat towards your secondary stat, making the tradeoff even less appealing.

Is it possible for Reverse equipment to be implemented in a way that appeals to both casual and hardcore players? Maybe. It would require a lot of fine tuning. As it is though, I'm not even sure casual players are farming to craft Dragon weapons, and we know Reverse equipment would be harder to farm for. That's why I did my rough analysis from a hardcore perspective.

 

theres a lot more to consider than just dropping content for the sake of it. the dragon weapon/gear market is really important, which is why i think making timeless gear completely untradeable and DIY us important bc it preserves the dragon market completely, but makes the timeless gear a purely optional, and huge meso sink for the dedicated, the same way auf helms are.

i think just making the crafting recipes/manuals, and possibly the scrolls for timeless gear tradeable only, and stims, is probably the best way.

as far as base stats, crafting requirements, those are sure to be flexible and likely changed up a bit for various reasons.

as far as the leveling up stats and free SP concepts they have, i think if the timeless gear is totally untradable, it wouldn't matter much if the level up system stayed or was scrapped, because the value of the gear isn't what you sell it for, its based off what a player individually puts in to them, which will still churn the market independent of the dragon gear.

timeless recipes, stimulators (possibly stim stabilizers as well) and scrolls, will be tradeable and will always have high value.

pieces or rocks of time should not be tradeable, the way which things can be farmed in this game trivializes it. making the process a full on DIY investment of time/mesos, and the meso sink of crafting a decent or above item, then buying the scrolls/ws, praying it levels well, is still enough of a market demand and meso sink to keep the timeless items very much involved in the economy, even without them being tradeable.

i also don't really think PB straight up dropping timeless weapons should be a thing. maybe the timeless armor, definitely the scrolls.

but i really think that PB should only be damaged by timeless weapons, because this forces the timeless investment, but still makes dragon weapons just as relevant/important. this would equalize PB runs until scrolls started dropping. i know that sounds a bit wild but i think its something to seriously consider, for the overall health and ecosystem of the end game market as well as keep players active to build and scroll them.

 

I don't have good numbers for this since I just lost track of time while farming these. I would guess 5+ hours each, and that was just the Typhon Features and Crimson Hearts. The other mats I bought from FM. I did farm with a BM with is probably slower than other classes.

I'm confused as to why the discussion on Timeless Weapons implementation based on crafting BM equips when most people don't play BM as their main. Is it because only BMs have a "third-tier" craftable item? (most classes have 2 choices of weapons, with one being better). Why is the Reverse Engaw considered the fourth tier of BM weapon? I'm not familiar with the item at all but Hidden Street says its STR requirement is 125 which is way higher than the Arclancer, and slightly higher than a DSB. Should the Reverse Engaw just be considered a third tier weapon for determining the difficulty to craft? Should all the Reverse Weapons be considered third tier weapons?

 

I thought that the Arclancer was a good reference point due to the Typhon Feathers and also the "third tier" aspect. It's a good reference point besides Dragon Weapon crafting. I assume that Typhon Feathers are the chokepoint for Arclancers, similarly to how Pieces of Time might be the chokepoint for Reverse Equipment. I also think the etc items for Dragon weapons are easier to get, at least that was my experience when I was farming Typhon monster cards.

The ~5 hours is a good experience point to consider then.

 

So far 33 in favor, 16 against.
In my opinion this reflects the server's need of fresh new end-game equips.

 

everyone wants new content, but a poll doesn't mean we just get what we want. VL isnt even rolled out yet. a lot of aspects have to be scrutinized over and over again, and pb doesn't even seem to be on the horizon. constructive convos and feedback are all you can really accomplish right now, which have value, unless the timeless gear will somehow be tied into VL.

 

I'm not even sure why VL should give access to reverse equips in the first place. For me, VL is a good opportunity to introduce a whole new set of equips or\and even a brand new type of equipment (shoulder pads for example). I think reverse and timeless stuff should be exclusive to the Temple of Time area because this area already lacks severely in terms of content because let's face it, PB ain't gonna be introduce in the near (or even far) future.

 

i brought it up because its not likely at all, and more realistic that ultimate end game gear will come out with the ultimate end game boss, pb and not before.
unless theres plans to tie content, its really unlikely anyone asking for tot gear will be getting what they want any time soon, and better to talk about how they could actually fit, since theres so many variables to consider before injecting a new tier of gear into the game because of boredom

 

I think you're overthinking about the possibility of introducing a new set of gear. If we always think about the possible bad outcomes of any possible change to the server we'll basically end in an idle state where everything is static and the changes introduced are close to non-existing. Sometimes you just gotta shake things up to allow for a positive change to occur.