In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

First of all, mages are not getting 50 bees without serious luck, and even 45 is rare and requires paying attention, but anyway...

As mentioned in an earlier post, instead of making the boss a bag of time-wasting HP or completely neutering Bishops, they can make the boss more aggressive and require people to pay attention to the attacks or risk wasting time. I believe an objective of this new content was to give high leveled mages a purpose other than being ulu/pepe/Sophilia's candy factory slave A/B/C/D since their ability to sell leech is greatly attenuated and people don't want them in bosses, and anyway you can't expect every mage player to want to sell leech which is stressful, prone to disturbances, and requires high commitment.

Regarding the Netflix comment, what do you say about the NLs watching Netflix while holding down one button? I really don't want to start a class war but I can argue that offensive mage needs more commitment since they will be swatted around by most bosses and need to reposition, and staying in the 5cm range of the summon is a major pain in the ass. Ultimates are LAGGY and using them in high level bosses is asking to get hit by super knockback or be exposed during DP and other nasty stuff. It only looks like OneKeyStory until you actually try it out. Take this from someone who duo attacks Nibergen and NMM with I/L and F/P instead of waiting for friends to invite me as a charity case. I don't even use ultimates against King Golem on arch mage. Maybe Bishops do rely on Genesis so refer to my suggestion above if you prefer them to pay attention and use Angel Ray instead.

On the previous pages, someone made a very good point about fatigue and how *most* people would not spam RG for hours everyday. I think that's a valid point. Remember that some people posting those absurd farming videos does not represent the entire server population.

 

1. The fact that 45 is possible is the problem. In your refutation you outline how biased you are on this entire topic. 9k NLs and 10k BMs are hitting sub 20 right now. Proper mobbers still get 20-25 on the most part.
2. Mages do have a purpose even if you nerf it. The same as any other class in Rose Garden would be the aim. You act as though we're proposing we ban mages from Rose Garden.
3. I lure two TPs left then stand on top left platform and hold down genesis. It's actual afk story. And you say you don't use ultimate as an A/M, but may I point out that I/Ls are clearing sub 5 minutes?
4. Everyone is spamming RG not just because it's hot and fresh, as Von Leon was at the start, but because the incentives are overwhelming. VL died a month in because people noticed it was negative income after the freshness wore out. I'm averaging 230m/hr right now on 1 mage 3 attackers. People aren't going to stop, ever.

Honestly it just sounds like you think mages should be 2.5x better than every other class in Rose Garden, which is befuddling... is this the position shared by everyone else who opposes a mage nerf? I had previously hoped that people were simply misinformed, and believed the performances were at least somewhat on par (1-1.5ish).

 

as it is my 5b~ geared bishop kills the boss faster than my DrK with perfect weapon so giving the boss an additional 10-20% health for mages seems like a decent way to even out the boss times. as for bonus maybe the % spawn rate of bees could be reduced slighty for mages while being careful as in not neutering mages and bishops. another potential solution is to lower the amount of monsters in the 3rd room by ~5 mobs.

another solution that i personly wouldnt like is to change the value of the bees for mages from 5m to 4.5m for mages. this would make mages still the most usefull class at rose garden but with a smaller margin

 

I don't know if people will share their average bee count on their mages beyond their highest gained of what they earned or from others. My guildie said she got 50 bees on her Bishop (lv200) as highest. She didn't tell me her average bee count while using her BS. My FP mage is lv182 (~1286 tma) and I've gotten:

32
30
33
28
19 (fell asleep during the bonus)
34
41
30

 

Take a look at their posts: they seem to think mages just 1 button through the whole thing in one spot. And look at one of their previous posts where they suggested we should give mages a 20 min boss fight and drive them back to multi farming (?!?! when farmables are deflating hard and fast, and as someone said people rarely quad ulu unless they have a goal or an event is on).

Maybe Bishop farms better than Arch Mage since their ulti is faster and mini golems move fast and have no magic attack, and those platforms are long. You definitely cannot lure to one side and just spam in rooms 1 and 2. I can tell you 45 bees on map 2 with 3 hit I/L with max speed and jump is not easy. I TC about 60-70 %, not the best because I'm too used to my current key config. Someone with a better bee count is probably amazing at TCing. The one thing I'm not sure of is if using Ifrit hurts things because of how summon-killed loot behaves differently and bees apparently depend on some invisible item being dropped. Would love developer input for this one.

Also part of the reason why we generally oppose nerfs is the staff tend to go overboard with them. Having said that there are some design choices about RG that clearly show they were designed with mages in mind, such as making 3 rooms for each element, and there are some great posts from staff members in here, so there is some faith.

I am not alone in thinking mages being better at farming in bonus is NOT* a bad thing, because the most vocal players here on the forum seem to want to keep mages (as least arch mages) bad at damage and support and therefore out of any profitable boss party, so finally we have farming content and now people are protesting mages being good at it, while the same people go solo NT bosses on their attackers? I mean if you want to gatekeep this to funded mages so assorted ulu mules cannot graduate to rose garden mules effortlessly you can make the TMA needed to 3 hit stuff 1550 or so, hence also making MW20 a must (enjoy passing it on each mule!), but that is just nasty even to me.

I cannot comment on this until I try blizzard run for myself.

In the meantime:


This is CL/Ifrit/Ice Demon/Big Bang run with focus, i.e. avoiding the attacks.

Edit: NOT* a bad thing. Whoops!

 

I was a bit late to it, didn't bring nets first day, crashed client on another day, but so far

39(1)
34
38(1)
42

(n): dead bee

TMA something like 158x or 159x without pots

 

1. "First of all, mages are not getting 50 bees without serious luck, and even 45 is rare and requires paying attention"
Yeah they do LOL. If you are netting low 40s you are not doing optimally.

2. "instead of making the boss a bag of time-wasting HP or completely neutering Bishops"
I never said make mages unuseable at RG, just balance them out. And "time wasting HP" wtf do you mean? Attackers "wasting" their time is okay and mages shouldn't?

3. "Regarding the Netflix comment, what do you say about the NLs watching Netflix while holding down one button?"
On which boss/content can NL press one button and earn 250m/hour? Please tell me I want to join.

4. "Ultimates are LAGGY and using them in high level bosses is asking to get hit by super knockback or be exposed during DP and other nasty stuff. It only looks like OneKeyStory until you actually try it out."
Yeah and yet mages are clearing boss within sub 8 minutes. You can talk all you want, but you cant avoid the fact that mages have a clear advantage in both bossing and farming in RG.

5. "On the previous pages, someone made a very good point about fatigue and how *most* people would not spam RG for hours everyday."
What do you mean... its because people take stuff like this to the next level that GM balances this stuff. (DUKE farming, ULU farming, LHC mage farming... should i go on?)

All I want is to balance the things out and make classes be on par on:

1. how fast they clear
2. how much they earm

It's not asking much.

 

I think you look at "equal" and "on par" and see "go back to ulu", which is why I call out your bias here.

It is fine for mages to have a place in Rose Garden. That place should be on a similar level with other classes. I don't believe this is too wild a take for this community to accept.

Also I believe the i/l map (map 2) is just way better than the f/p map (map 1), which may be a cause in number discrepancy.

Edit: now I'm curious if any f/p tried out map 2 and checked out the results.

 

1. Maybe Bishop has an easier time. It is not happening with I/L without extreme RNG, and I'm quite sure with F/P because their monster is awful to lure with Eruwater magic attack range and snail walking speed.

2. But you were suggesting Bishop be completely neutered because holy immunity reduces them to three skills: a first job attack, a 3rd job summon that is usually left at level 15, and a 4th job slow-as-molasses skill that does like 60k/3s. I'm estimating since 1600 TMA maxed Arch Mage Big Bang does about 80k-90k.

3. That is not the point, you were essentially saying mage is onekeystory in bosses when in reality spamming ulti in bosses is inefficient except Bishop/FP against Chao and Ephenia and maybe FP in Dunas V1 because he is immune to poison, and that is my response.

4. But you don't want mages to have a fair boss, you want their boss to take way longer for no real reason other than "oh it's mage, they deserve a struggle". If anything attacker boss could have some HP shaved off instead, which some others have suggested. My other suggestion is to make the mage boss need more brain usage to fight.

5. Exactly, and my statement is half the reason why LHC nerf and Ulu nerf were undeserved. The other half of the reason is there was no good alternative to that kind of farming other than leech selling, and now we have one and you want to mess with it.

 

is really what I'm hearing. No offense Green Mind but like honestly, I'm going to be completely real here and say you know exactly how good mages are currently are in Rose Garden and are deliberately and intentionally lying about it so you can keep your absurdly unfair advantages.

These arguments are in bad faith.

If that seems rude or against etiquette so be it. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but I don't believe you actually hold these opinions in truth.

 

With a few posts above yours I have been completely transparent with how I'm doing in Rose Garden: about 5min + boss clears and that spread of 3x to low 4x bees in bonus. Those numbers are not fabricated. Keep in mind we still need to fight to get in a channel. I am not getting the insane numbers some of you have been reporting because I suspect those are bishop numbers with their faster ulti, great map, lack of need for booster and lurable monsters. If you want to take issue with Bishops only based on that, feel free but I am going to defend Bishops from uninformed suggestions like making the boss holy-immune.

P.S. you aren't being rude at all.

 

I feel like nerfing mage bee spawn rate is the way to go if you want to nerf Rose Garden. Mages having a much easier time luring the bees also factors in here. Maybe from 5% > ~3-4% per mob.

 

Its like you read just blindly read them and not think at all. All these points are not to argue about specifics but about how much mages has an advatange over other classes. I could argue the specifics of your points, but I think u'll just waste ur time tring to argue the specifics.

 

Well then, like you said, waste of time talking to you because you came out guns blazing, telling mages they deserve this nerfed and that ulu should be buffed so they stay there. A fair argument was dead on arrival.

 

Yeah, BECAUSE RG for mages are unbalanced COMPARED TO OTHER CLASSES. No doubt about it.

Please read the capitalized and bolded and stop evading.

 

Because it's farming content that was meant to prevent players like myself from firing up our multi mage farms and dying on the inside?
Because funded mages need somewhere to go, and they require no less effort to make than your funded attackers? The high end gear is nonexistent and pretty much must be self-scrolled. Well there was a 32 lapiz around recently but nowhere near as common as attacker shoe.

So shave attacker boss HP off, or gatekeep the monsters by raising the 3-hit TMA to something painful like 1550, no need for GB2Ulu.

 

I love the idea of making mages into attackers and make content for funded mages, but thats gonna be hell of a thing to balance.

You know why there are less magic attack gears compared to attack gears? Cuz mage gears are used by only mages where as attack gears are used by Rogues, Archers, Pirates, Warriors. And you know what? Where do you think these mesos and items from RG are going for 99% of the users?

It seems like you just want mages to have advantage over OTHER CLASSES of earning insane mesos per hour; and you seem to think mages deserve it. Which I don't think I can reason with. GLHF with the game as you seem fit.

 

I mean from my experience they are. My paladin gets a bit over 20 bees average and bish gets a bit over 30. So really just need the boss buffed for mage to make it take around the time attackers need. Probably 2-3x HP.

Please teach me the proper rotation. I've been trying to talk with mages who get more and comparing exp gains as that's a way to actually see if we're killing at the same rate. My 1500 tma bishop is getting around 170-180m exp/run, almost all from the bonus room. Average of I'd guess around 35 bees.

 

If you gonna nerf anything then I suggest you do not increase Boss HP for Mages, rather decrease Boss HP for other classes while making the boss fight slightly more challenging (but keep in mind Archers cant really evade a double stun before you introduce instant kills or something like that). On the other hand, you might nerf the bee rate for mages to account for the farm appeal of this content, or make the bees fly towards other classes or enable mount looting etc etc.

The reason is the increased time this will take for a completed run and the resulting reduced slots for everyone, which will make this content even more competitive. People take Royals more serious than their actual lives so it is a bad idea to even increase the pointless competitive environment here and it will not serve anyone but instead take away from a joyfull solo experience, that is at least somewhat possible now (as intended). That is why you should not make the single runs longer but rather change it in another way.

Other than that by reducing the bee count for mages you actually nerf it and take away the farm appeal which is the most important aspect of the complaints. A farmer will not worry about 10 min more boss run if the overall meso per hour is still incredible but if the meso per hour drops they will worry since as reported by many, the majority of the meso comes from the bees.

However as many pointed out it should still be a great bossing experience for mages, keep in mind there is mage players and here they can do a boss finally.

I still do not understand why there is an unwritten law that a mage is not allowed to deal damage in Royals, this conceptual hate against mages is unique to this server imo lol. I men apart from the balance complaints, there is people that straight simply have the sole argument that a mage should not be good at bossing just by principle. Not balance-wise. This should not be a consideration in a real, fair balance attempt imo but who am I kidding - it most probably will.

 

Mages should be able to boss if they want to, just not anywhere near as efficient as bossing classes.

in this case they are bossing twice as efficiently as bossing classes.

If your suggestion is to not increase the boss hp for mages then what do you suggest w.r.t. reducing the hp for bossing classes? How much should it be reduced by?

As you said earlier in the thread, I, as a BM, should not be expecting to farm anywhere as efficient as a mage/bishop.

Similarly don’t you think mage/bishops should not boss anywhere as efficient as a NL/BM/Any attacking class?

Why is it that they are killing the boss twice as fast as an end game bossing class?

I really do not mind them killing the boss fast tbh their success is not my failure.
Just asking out of curiosity because your train of thought is intriguing albeit contradictory.