In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

I just hope the devs keep in mind the average solo player before generally nerfing.
I'm not well funded or got any godly gears, I can't afford to use 3~5 apples per run since it's a way of income by selling.
A rose garden run takes me 50min~(boss+bonus)
And gives around 10~ bee's
Comparing these numbers to what many others gain per run I guess this place wasn't made for the average non-funded player.

It's a starting to become a chore rather than some type of enjoyment.

~just your average NL.

 

I agree that attackers should definitely clear boss faster than the mages/bs, we should not penalize attackers, especially single target classes at situations they are supposed to shine at.

Riding on the notion of time, just thinking out loud but would it be better if bonus time is made shorter e.g. 20mins and the $ rate remains the same?

Benefits:
- People finish faster, less congestion as more players can enter

- Bees spawn more in shorter intervals, more player activity is needed to chase the bees, makes it harder to multiclient. Mages/bs can't cast ult as often if they dont wanna miss the bees, slightly equalizing the playing field for other classes

- This is solo content, so the faster we clear, the faster we can socialize and boss, which apparently is in decline

Many of us are working adults so 40mins+ per char of solo play(not that I have a lot) leaves very little time left for other activities, something to consider!

 

Besides the major meso/hr imbalance between mages and other classes (and further issues like NLs suffer without their SE), I think the overall gains is still too high. It's to the point where for me it's Rosegardenstory now, since there's no better way to spend my little time per day playing (in terms of account progression).

 

Ah. I see how mages can hit 50+

 

Yup NLs are literally the worst class in Rose garden, like even if you can afford to appo the entire run, without SE, it's just inefficient and a waste of appos

 

on 200 bs, excluding dc runs and days i skipped:
29
26
36
40
50
38
29
31
39

Which averages to 35.33. I do go in with 1587 tma with echo/gizer so I do expect lower lvl bishops will have less tma. Admittedly I am not the best tc-er/mobber and my rotation is trash (skill issue I guess) so I'd think 35-40 is average is manageable for other bs. . But I really don't think bishops will be averaging 50. I don't even go in expecting to get 40 usually.

By the way, my shad average is 30.125 on gizer, and it's a lot more consistent even though I zone out half the time (first full bon was 22 cos I sucked, but it's always 29-36 after). (Edit: snowy says 2nd map is better for shads and I've been at 1st, so I guess my shad average could've been even better lol). I heard some drks are getting over 40, but I don't know what pots they use. Highest NL bee count on gizer I've heard of is 28, even though it's usually 15 maybe? So the bee count varies a lot and I really wouldn't assume the highest value is near the average.

I heard rumours that I/L can get over 50 consistently even on noob gear (I don't know any of these I/Ls myself). First map (fire-weak) sucks for mages so F/P probably don't do much better than bishops. 2nd mob looks very nice for mages (and lower hp than 3rd), and is weak to ice, so maybe that's where the "mages are op" remarks are coming from.

I think 35-40 bees for mages are fair if some geared attackers can easily get 30-40 depending on job. Attackers do benefit from the exp/ring, whereas I assume mages don't really care about it, so it's mostly a pure meso thing for them, so mages getting a bit more makes sense to me. When I said not to nerf mages, I was going with the assumption that around 40 bees average is the upper limit, but 50 average is really kind of broken.

So imo bishops and F/P are probably fine, but consistently over 50 on an I/L is too much. It would be nice to make all the mages about the same efficiency when it comes to farming bees (30-40, or a tiny bit less for bishops but not under 30, because bishops are at least wanted in bosses). Archmages already have 1.4x damage of bishops usually, so it makes sense to me to keep the 1.5x holy weakness for golems (golems are also the highest hp mob in garden) otherwise bishops won't be comparable to archmages at all. But I/L with 1.4x of a bishop damage in normal conditions, plus ice weakness (1.5x damage), and a slightly lower hp mob with decent spawns (2nd map is way better than 1st, poor sad F/Ps) probably makes them the best class for this content by far. There are a good number of safe spots in the 2nd map too, so maybe that's where the claims that mages are easily multiclienting this comes from. I don't think it's fair to nerf all mages just because I/L is op, so maybe we should get some more data on I/L farming (we only see bishops and F/P, where are the I/L replies?) and see if that one needs to be nerfed. Removing ice weakness will also affect palas so it might be not the best way to go about it, but if we can make the boss for mages a nerfed version of the attacker's version, I don't see why we can't do something similar for mage bonus. (Edit: some I/L mage has told me they also get 35-45 bees, so idk what the true average is lol)

I am also for mage boss being a little more difficult to kill so it feels less meme to be slower on an attacker plus makes you feel investing in a mage's damage is finally something, though it's not really a priority for me.

 

A) You say you don't use ultimates? Well I/Ls are clearing the boss sub 5min.
B) Boss should be made immune to ulti elements. Too OP to stand there and just spam.

1610 TMA Blizzard run (+ carefully avoiding stun and super KB to give it the best chance) (notice King golem is not weak to ice)

Spoiler

I'm sure these I/Ls I'm told about are all super high-leveled with crazy wand 8s using CL because my own I/L is not getting under 5 min with CL (best like 5 min 20s). I mean I could pie/apple for sub 5 min but why would you pie/apple in this boss?

King Golem also has massive detection range, he can be offscreen and his rocks start falling, not to mention rocks have a ceiling-to-floor hitbox.

New: as promised @MaiAh
Blizzard run with Ifrit on Cecilia's platform. My ring expired so 1605 TMA this time:

Spoiler

You can subtract maybe 30s (super conservative) because I misjudged a rock once and fell off and he tped to the other side, so I stayed bottom to get him to tp back into place.

It is actually worse in terms of time because Ifrit only hits when his arms go up vs. constantly being in range aside from during the teleport.

You can't 100% braindead this actually, or you will get knocked off. Sometimes he drops two rocks and covers the whole platform.

And if this is deemed offensive, the fix is simple: remove the platform.

 

The numbers posted on this thread on the bees count is not a clear depiction of the entire playerbase. The bees count varies with level of character, funding (attacker/mage gear set), class, map choice, rotations and RnG. The numbers displayed here are mostly well funded characters which excludes the players that are less funded. I believe the average bee count for attackers is anywhere from 20-25 and mages from 30-35 which is a better number to base off. I would love to see a video of claims where a mage can consistently do high 40s to 50 or even multi-client mage. However, if adjustments were to be made for mages, I would suggest going from reducing the bee rates with ultimate by 10-20% (percent to be discussed) and not adjust the hp on the boss for mages as they should not be affected with double adjustment.

 

please collect more content info before nerf/changes/balance and more indepth

What job/lvl/fund/att pots/ whats their class role in general(can they be involved in other content etc etc) and rate of bee being done +- based on that

i think is fair if mages kill boss slower a bit just cus they can farm more bee (i think bee rate should be same for all mages even tho bs is hardest to fund/gear out of the 3mages as it can be seen of ice mages with naked-mid funded gear and their bee rates and boss time ) but for non-mages should be much faster to do boss then is now just because they get lower bee rates and not made for mobing just like mages are not for bossing so that can be their trade off (also not all non-mages are same sair/bow has much harder time and slower at bees then buc/shad)

Again overall i think this content is nice change and good rewards there is 2 gacha sytem (totem gacha and box gacha) that can also well reward and great motivation for mages to fund (not to much for ice mages alltho they dont get to have HS and fund like bs) still think is fair
Also it helps us not be forced to go crazy mule mage farm meta and pc setups that i still belive is major royals issue...

Btw @Green Mind the platform above (where npc spawn after kill) is "safe" spot to spam ulti and also dosnt make boss tp alot and when it does tp is usualy on the other side that can be reached from that same spot

 

Let me try tomorrow, I was not told of this and I only know the boss kept hitting me when I tried platform camping. I do not think it will beat CL (especially with Ifrit doing damage when I go close range) but we will see.

Wait, do you mean where Cecilia stands or the one above that?

 

Both works just need watch the upcomeing green effect/smoke that can stun but is long enough to see and move/tc, hsh on bishop helps here a bit also playing on hd client instead of 800x600

Not sure if bug or intended but yea boss dosnt tp away as much as when on ground near unlike when on sair/bow/bucc each 20ish sec left and right and also no deff alltho it dosnt matter much for bs

 

I wonder why nobody else mention this. Staff increased stars recharge prices with meso sink in mind while soft nerfing NLs but you guys are ok with this? One of the big issues of the server is meso inflation caused by hackers and multi mage farmers that produce mesos selling dropped equips to npc, and now everyone can generate and inject mesos into servers economy selling bees? I dont get it. This is my only problem with the new content.

 

people are not seeing the bigger picture and just looking at their own potential personal gain (which i think is pointless since pretty much everyone does rose garden now).

The 1b earned today could be worth half the value in a month or two, and what about the people that worked their ass off to save alot of mesos before rose garden update? Players that farmed years to save up tons of b coins, only to have their value depreciate sounds really shitty.

 

echoing on this because the last time i checked, the general consensus was that we don't need more pure meso flowing into the already inflated market? you guys flipped the npc pot prices and increased recharge prices substantially for years to create a meso sink and yet all of a sudden a new content is released to inject way more mesos into the playerbase in first few weeks than you can possibly even absorb back in another few years with those mechanisms?

at this point it feels punishing in terms of your funds progression to not do rose garden on a daily basis and the fact that the 20 channels are being oversaturated with what little number of active unique players we have should speak volume on this. this isn't combatting multi-client farming, right now you are just simply offering an even better way for the people who are capable of multi-client farming to make mesos and widen their gaps with the new/casual playerbase, further solidifying the impossibility of them even catching up.

i'm not sure if i still qualify to speak as an endgame player anymore, but the people that have already gotten there really don't need anymore mesos, it's simply redundant after a certain point. instead throw us a dog bone to work for from time to time, the whole LHC up until this point has been really healthy: have you seen how engaged your players became with the VL runs when you released a new BiS? there weren't even any good meso from it for the longest time (sure people were salty about it) but you still have your veterans grinding it, casual players slowly working towards it as an actual endgame boss, and old players coming back for it.

this post isn't meant to dismiss all your efforts in trying to develop the content whilst keeping the nostalgic factor in of course, the earrings - a close contender to the current BiS and the new ring - something to min/max for to beat a perfect wedding ring (i don't even know why was this even a thing lmao), these are all really welcomed additions to me at least. there really are endless ways you could have introduced a new content to the game but being a 10-year (?) running top 1 (?) server and releasing this was really disappointing and kind of shows how inconsistent and unstable our staff team is currently.

just before some1ne comes sliding into my dm and calls me a clown again for just flaming and no input, here's a few suggestions that i sometimes dream of that you can perhaps substitute the meso rewards from the bee with, probably along with a token currency system:

• VL belt main stats scrolls +2~3 str/dex/int/luk - a counterpart to the CS version that can potentially add att for the attackers, also an alternative for people too old and are frustrated with RNG from CSing (ahem guy above)
• VL att/matt potions - this should make the VL runs faster and hopefully acts as a catalyst for newer players to be able to run their own VL runs successfully? we have been relying on APQ as the main attack potion source for years now, you can even consider making them untradeable like gelts so they don't affect the market as much? and when pink bean (soontm) comes I believe this would be actually sought after, hence not making the content anyhow obsolete
• Rex series equipments - loved the Hyena mount back then, earrings that add HP/MP%, goes perfectly with our goal of wanting to phase out hp washing slowly. and iirc Rex PQ was an el nath based content too ^^

 

Here's some rough numbers to make things a little more concrete:

Assuming: 6 mins for first 2 stages, 70 mil total value from boss/box

BS: ~48 bee / 42 min (gizer) = 310m total or 443m/hr (pure meso 240m or 342m/hr)
IL: ~42 bee / 42 min = 280m total or 400m/hr
Drk (highly funded): ~44 bee / 50 min (apple) = 290m total or 348m/hr
Hero: ~27 bee / 50 min (stopper) = 205m total or 246m/hr
Shad: ~32 bee / 50 min (gizer) = 230m total or 276m/hr
BM: ~21 bee / 50 min (concentrate) = 175m total or 210m/hr
NL: ~13 bee/ 50 min = 135m total or 162m/hr

 

You a real one for this.

 

for those that think this should not be a cause for concern..

let's take a look at it this way,
let's say the average total amount of player that does this content out of the total population is 200 (it is probably much more), and each player does 1~3 characters, and each character has an average bee count of 25.

This would mean, at least 50b is added to the server economy on a daily basis. It's wild .

edit : i realize that this is not the right way to estimate the daily meso injection since players are limited by channels, so, a better estimate would be to take a span of 24 hours and let's just say 4 hours of each channel aren't used, if the average time per rose garden run is an hour and average bee count is 25, this would also mean 50b is generated daily


Compare this to pre rose garden times, where the majority of meso generation mostly came from only a handful of pepe / ulu farmers, like maybe on a good day when the farmers are feeling really motivated, 20b is generated? Other players that didn't mage farm just APQ-ed / stopper farm / CWKPQ / HT / merch / sold leech & services for profits, so there's no meso generation involved there.

Also, i speculate that CS price will keep dropping lower and lower while WS price would increase higher and higher the longer this goes on, which i don't know how i would feel about that, i kinda like how they were both priced similarly pre- rose garden

 

Now this is a realistic I/L number with 3 hit, solid movement and reasonable RNG. Mid 30s-mid 40s. Thank you. The claims of consistent 50 bees should be disregarded until an actual I/L main comes forward.

 

adjusting/nerfing/balancing based on some/best of best outcome numbers from few indivduals that has great gear,use expensive pots to go extra + high bee/box/lhc gacha RNG luck is not fair and dosn't reperesnt the most players but nerfing adjusting RG will hurt evryone and make it dead
sure some balance is needed but please make all other content considered aswell like what else is out there and alternatives?

my bee rate so far alltho changes alot or early to say maybe because shadow nerfs or what not but i can say from last 3days stable :
(scg is shared across my chars 55att , sair has 123att gun, buc has 105 knuck ,bow has 137bow and bishop is at 1.5k tma with mw20)
BS: 37-43 bees (lolipop+echo+mw20) 7-8min boss(loli)
bucc: 20-26bees (gizer +echo+mw10) 12min boss(gizer)
sair: skiping bon (gizer + echo+mw20 did 14 bee on gizer might revist this as it was only 1 bon so far but boss also takes longer even after mastering the no break ship still harder get faster then 15min~ on gizer + echo + mw20 so not sure if i go bon too )
bow skiping bon (boss takes me time 16min~ mw10/echo/gizer )

i feel like with RG as is now mages can finaly work their gear up (mage att pots allready raised in prices and demand, pots that was consider joke/waste no use now are on hunt, if this stays as is mage skill books prices should go aswell up and make players hunt those too) is good daily exp for solo playrs and non-mages to work towards aswell

in other hand RG is not open for evryone just like that is gated by huge prequest,high lvl requirement + time limit per char per day unlike currently popular goby/pepe/ulu1 spots and few that are not yet pubicly known (by far more broken then those... but ok ) are open for all without any prequest or very quick prequest, not limited per day and dosn't require mage/attacker funding/lvling as much as RG

the multimage mules generate way more meso and the powercreep caused by few of those farm spots is insane that flips market upsidedown all that without daily limits just who will go crazyer with pc setups

and when there is special events(CNY/ice box/anni box...) FM gets floaded even more just hoard and pray it will recover a bit and avoid the full crash ? but for how long it can go like that ?
(orbis etc got history low to 300k~ and barely recovers to 700k~)

and ofc there is ongoing battle with rwtrs/vote abusers that makes things even worse =(

but i hope and i belive staff carefully monitor this content objectively adjust the content in future as needed

 

(welcome to my post where I give no useful suggestions once again)
Since a portion of people are arguing over what class is too op/getting how many bees on what gear, saledor just wants bm buffs, others are worried about the pure mesos bees are giving/cs prices, and the remainder are worried about everyone spending too much time in rose garden that no one is bossing, the discussion is kinda all over the place.

Some questions:

If, attempting to bridge the meso gap between semi-casual singleclient plebs and mage farmers is actually making things worse because:
a) the more serious farmers now have even better content to farm with their multiple mage chars (though I think many non-mage farmers appreciate this content that allows them to use their multiple high lvl attackers to farm mesos, whereas mage farmers are probably not 170 unless they're crazy farmers and if they are, you can't stop them anyway),
b) it's introducing a gap between players who have time to do rose garden everyday and casuals who don't, because rose garden helps player progression too much.
c) the more casual people hate farming and hate the game now that they feel forced to do rose garden/farm or fall behind

Then,
1) How much exp/mesos do people think is reasonable for a daily content, such that players without 4-6 mage ulti mules also have a reliable way to do some meso-earning content?

2) How much time do we want players to spend at rose garden daily so that idk, people have more time to do memetails and drycwks/get back to actual farming. Do we want to keep this as a daily content, or limited to 2-3x a week or whatever so people don't feel like they must fit it into their daily gameplay.

Also, other stuff:

3) What alternative to the pure mesos from bees can we suggest that doesn't kill the economy as fast.

4) What does everyone think of rose box rates? If cs is too common, what other items do we want to see from it? Aeronautics has some suggestions, and I'm too smolbrain to think, so L> more suggestions. I personally enjoy seeing cs as a jackpot item but don't mind lowered cs rates, I would love to get more rings or good untradeables but have no real suggestions.