In Discussion Bossing [Feedback Request] Von Leon

I agree with Doo,

You really don’t need great gears.

Runs fail because 1-3 people dc and there are multiple characters (4-5) dying 5 times+

I’m sure if you ran a 20 man VL where the total death count is around 2 per player with like 40CGS and perf lvl 100 weapons you clear it faster than a 26 man VL run where you have multiple 50cgs+ Pref dragon weps that average 3 deaths per player.

If there was a way to see how many total party deaths in runs passed/failed, it would be a harsh reality.

People just have to get used to not dying more than twice a run.

 

In addition,

Are players who suffer from consistent dcing getting resolved? I know it was affecting Asian players pretty hard, myself included.

I joined the group that ended up just buying a laptop to VL with. Anyone know anyone who used to crash consistently that is now stable?

 

18man VL failed
3bs/ 4nl/ 2 se / 2shadower/ 4bucc / 3 warrior
Rules:
1. auf helm attackers are banned
2. CGS only 50 max
3. only allow to apple

We recruited players that are experienced and skillful in VL hours ago
We did plan well, very few deaths, but unfortunately DPS/DPM not enough to kill it

compared to my last 23man VL clear run , we had 14+ppl with 60+cgs and left are 45+cgs at least + 4bs (4x 87 auf helmet attackers)
what I want to say is if u are weak that's ok , just find a skillful and strong player base group to go with.

So I suggest to Nerf a bit VL total HP and mob HP
If u guys don't consider nerf that
I think need to adjust about Jail+ double Summon Mobs combo
It really too RNG , need pray to g0d tp range attackers and bs go in jail
maybe set the sign number effect the jail order
or
maybe adjust the cd of jail and summon mobs cd



Here is the video if u want to watch

 

Please stop calling for nerfs.
Yea I get it, you are trying to prove that on a low gear level the boss is not clearable but:
- go with more than 18 ppl
- throw in some gelts if needed
- even if you didn't do all that u can clear with a better party composition that is more melee centered, as you failed only with 4% left.

Melee progression curve is different than NLs (the diff between a weaker and stronger melee is much smaller and less significant).

The fact is that this boss has a huge margin for error as it is and basically every squad with some planning and experience can clear it.

More nerfs = eliminating the teamplay and the majority of the difficulty that is left.
I really don't want another horntail, let this boss remain somewhat difficult as it's the endgame boss.
We see new squads forming, looking at the amount of weekly clears, I think in a few months from now it will look very different as it's only a matter of learning.

EDIT:
Also, just to disprove your theory, look what 18 man melee only does on stopper:

With stopper this adds up to a much lower gear level that what you had, not to mention some of us were using 103 and 104 knuckles.
We had to use 1 apple at the end due to an early DC, but thats about it.
The problem is not gear.

Usually I'd not even comment, but I feel like this will ruin the boss for us entirely.
VL is in a decent spot right now with hp values, even borderline deserves a buff, if you want to make any change it should be solving the bugs and fine tuning the timers.

 

I've only ran VL twice, cleared once and failed once. The cleared run even had 13 minutes remaining. Both runs had fixable personal mistakes in terms of deaths, and I got some good info out of them. I now know that being on mount expands your hitbox, so dismount before rocks drop, and I can learn to get used to crazy skull rock dodging. Sometimes shit happens too, our party's bucc d/c'd at the beginning of the run so I was doing 20% less DPS.

I do not think VL needs nerf. It's honestly pretty fun.

 

First, I spoke to a friend who participated in that run. I don't know if I necessarily understood right, or if his thoughts were representative of Doo's and the rest of the run as a whole, but I believe what they were actually trying to prove is that the boss is in fact clearable on "low gear" to disprove certain people commenting that only end gamers with 70 cgs can clear this boss.

(Side note, y'all end gamers gotta realize 50 cgs and perf weapons is not "low gear")

Second, I think you and certain others who simply cannot comprehend why some people are calling for a nerf on this boss exist in an extremely privileged circumstance where people are not only well geared (which, as implied above, is not all that important) but are organized, capable of absorbing resources and guides, able to follow instructions, remains focused, and understands their roles.

You might say "well yeah that's a given, isn't it? Easiest thing in the world, get good." But it isn't, it really, really isn't. To the average player, these are not expectations that were ever demanded of them in this game, and they are either unwilling or unable to change.

A call for a nerf is not to make the boss free and boring. It is to make this boss consistently clearable for a 30-man group of average Royals players who wish to participate in this exciting content.

The challenge will still be there when you 10 man Von Leon, I promise. Nothing will change, except the player count.

Edit: and hey, why nerf? Because if we could bring 35-40 people we would, but we can't. You guys, on the other hand, can always bring fewer members.

 

My feedback won't be liked by most people who can easy beat VL.
Because when the VL becomes simpler, it will affect our interests. Just like the HT, the more teams we can beat, the lower the value of drops.
It also let us feel clear VL not special.

A VL discord group usually have 50~150 people , server population is like 1000~1400, so I just assume VL players are 10% players base of server.
compared to the newest content : Rose garden

It is best content so far that having a lot of players made feedback and share their thoughts
However VL, only very few people are making feedback, and we can notice all of us are the 10% player.

So from this feedback thread, I think matt and staffs want this boss is a 18man challenge boss right?

Here is the 18 man videos tested by us yesterday


We wanted to know is a skillful team that well designed, communicate, with 50cgs player base +apple can clear VL ?
Unfortunately , we failed.

On the other hand,
the 18man full melee video posted by donn1e

just shows this boss is not "balanced"

1. there is 0 VL group are keep running full melee runs, or maybe one only? Idk
but most of players main nl/se/sair, and they wanted to loot belt and scroll it.
2. If staffs want this boss be melee friendly, then se/sair/nl are just extra , if ur team not strong player base, better bring as many as melee as you can
3. Do notice the current dispel replace DR , it actually a buff to VL, lower team's dps lower

Final, assume VL got nerfed , the strong VL group can still go try on 10man, 8man , or even 6man.
Challenge can be set by ourselves, just like finland made amazing 12man VL clear record , but there is no paladin/hero/se/sair/nl there.
I don't think matt and staff team worked so hard for this content just for 10% player base anyway.

 

I personally think VL is in a reasonable spot (maybe just the tiniest of nerfs on summon HP, which is mostly only a problem when combined with jail). Keep in mind the last 2 BAA runs were a clear and a fail, with, if I remember correctly, 10 and 7 brand new players, about 2 DCs per run (and 1-2 people hitting OK after dying), usually resulting in losing at least 1 important class. Fixing DC issues and running with a higher average practice level makes it much more consistent. Oh, also a lot of our communication issues are due to a language barrier - we've got a lot of people who aren't fluent English speakers.

I personally think groups made of mostly new players shouldn't be clearing, until they start to actually learn the fight which for most people (except like @Moo Moo ) takes 3-5 runs.



That being said, I'm open for changes to help make every class viable in VL, not just a full shad/bucc/bs meta.

One thing that would help is allowing practice mode, or something similar, especially now that the boss has been out for a while and the mechanics are fully discovered. I'm not super active in other VL servers, but I would guess they tend to have very few new members in their runs. This would help a lot with getting newer players to actually be able to join runs.

 

BAA is not the only group failing to clear.

 

That's where you are wrong.
You say all that as if I'm previleged and I can't see it from other groups persepective.
I understand it very well, I don't think that communicating, being able to follow instructions and learning mechanics is easy at all.
What I do think is that the introduction of those very things is what makes this boss fun and it changed royals from a game where you hold TT and YouTube - to a game that requires some skill.
I wish to preserve those things and I don't think that any casual team of 30 ppl should be able to clear this boss, I think you need planning and preparation and that you should put in effort to clear it.

We had our struggles, we failed, and improved. That's what I expect from other groups too, and most new organizers seem to understand and appreciate it.

New groups are forming, and will be clearing if the put in the effort - just give it time.
I'm not worried about this boss becoming boring and easy to me, I'm worried about the elements introduced by this boss being eliminated because people want it to be more casual...

 

I consider:
30 cgs - low end player (ideal to lv200 on first char)
45 cgs - mid end player (has made 2nd lv200 and/or sold leech/merchant | Or saved money responsibly from bossing)
55 cgs - veteran/high player (long investment in server)
70+ cgs - untouchable player (you probably won't even get a Hi from them because they're playing on a different level than 99% of players)
80+ cgs - would rather remain anonymous (on Tim's Watchlist)

 

Which elements, precisely, are eliminated by lowering boss/mob hp and tweaking the jail/golem interaction? Those are Doo's suggestions, which I personally agree with. Not to mention going heavy on reducing mob hp would alleviate the clear overcorrection which led to the current melee meta from the NL meta, which in retrospect was probably due to hard skin more than anything else.

That I cannot see a concern doesn't mean it doesn't exist but I'm really not sure what you're worried about here.

P.S. it has been over 6 months since VL released. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge this is no longer a "new boss" that'll be magically solved given time

 

Nerfing boss HP, mobs HP and jail/mobs timers gives u a whole lot more of room for error.
That means you can brute force your way through this boss with a lot of deaths and mistakes without even caring about the mechanics or party composition.
To be completely fair, its also that way now as long as your party size is big enough.
I really can't understand the logic behind that and I don't wanna argue anymore, I said what I've said and I can only hope that staff won't nerf for absolutely no reason.
Also - despite the boss not being "new", you can still see new squads forming and there's definitely more interest after the introduction of bonus room.
Also think about this:
The 2 organizers of the "newer" squads both don't seem to agree with you, and would rather try and improve over asking for nerfs - to me that says a lot.
I'm done discussing nerfs.

 

don't nerf boss HP, increase the time.

 

Maybe change the sign method like cwkpq?
Warrior thief archer mage pirate each job need at least 2-3 to start with ?
I don’t think anyone will keep use mules to help sign because the quest of farming scroll is headache .

 

I think it is okay if ranged attackers are not optimal in Von Leon. Almost all boss content already caters to ranged, and I've not seen ranged get rejected from VL. At least in BAA, it seems that Buccs + bish + shad are mandatory, but they always fill out the rest of the slots with any attackers.

 

I'm not sure what I feel about making VL "more viable" with a more balanced team of melee and ranged. In this version, we see that Shads and Buccs are S+ Tier in VL, and every other attacker class pales in comparison, and I think that's fine honestly, because strictly speaking, ranged classes are not unviable in the boss, they're just not optimal.

The simple fix is to just increase the run's player count if players insist on bringing their ranged classes to loot untradeables, or if they just don't have other classes, or if they simply enjoy playing ranged classes over melee classes that much.

Spoiler: ok but is it really simple

No, yes it's difficult, but I don't think staff can do much about that. I understand that there's many people willing to join and learn, but they don't have the S+ tier classes to fill teams, so, I think the problem is insisting on running on low player-counts and refusing to take in more people at the cost of lower splits or hosting headaches.

And yes, larger party size comes with more complications like more work for the host to organize and more people to babysit, but that's another topic and I don't think staff can do much about that either. It seems like party play is an intended feature of the boss.

I feel like there's gonna be a meta for every boss in the game, and people need to stop hinting at (or expecting) every class or party composition to be equally good at every boss. There's a good reason why people don't conventionally bring some classes e.g., Heroes to Auf, while people insist on always having a Hero clearing bottom in CWK. If you insist on bringing Heroes to Auf, then you have to accept a longer cleartime (or giving up and not clearing at all), or you simply increase the party size by bringing more Heroes or joining a party with ranged classes to achieve the same cleartime as the classic NL+Bucc+SE combo. The converse analogy works on trying to clear bottom using only NLs or whatever suboptimal classes in CWK bottom too.

I think the boss is fine as it is class-balance wise, and the focus should be put on bug fixes + tweaks on how summon/jail timers sync instead so teams don't unnecessarily fail runs due to RNG.

 

shads meta at ht with arm rush / auf with right pin + can hit top clone and auf same time / von leon + great at most other bosses zzz

 

I've been on a fair number of shad HT runs and I can tell you while it's comfortable due to the number of smokes and the fact that you don't have to worry about sed, shad runs are in fact not the best way to clear HT, at least when speed is concerned, although many shad players seem to think it is.

Arm rush is also mostly a gimmick and doesn't really speed up the run by much as long as your bishop isn't too lazy to dispel defense + people don't cross unnecessarily. I'm convinced that on equal gear, a good mix of NLs and one multi-target clears faster than a conventional shad-run setup (but less afk-gaming in main body due to lack of smoke), this is what I've noticed from running countless of HTs at least.

Same goes for Auf. It's not hard to see how single-target classes fare better than Shads. Buccs with free pin on barrage + TL Utility, hamstring + SE on BMs, and NLs just being a single-target DPS machine. Shads are decent at best, and can be considered OP because of their survivability and for some niche purposes like solo Auf, but they're definitely not the best at Auf either.

Without derailing the discussion on VL balance too much, my point is that while Shads are great in pretty much every boss, they're by no means the best when speed/efficiency is concerned, except for in VL now apparently, so I don't see this as a great imbalance.