In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

Still bullish on it and B>

 

Isnt the Timer kinda low? i finished with everything like in 35mins, then after this nerf i only have 5minutes left

I think in the future for content like this you need to limit it personwise/IP like voting

Staff is already asking for Screenshots for some bigger trades, then i think this a step in the right direction too.
Only a few people abused it leading it to getting it nerfed heavily mesoswise

 

Facts, screw the people who wanna mule 10+ accounts on their addiction unlike us casuals, limiting where everyone has their fair share and doesn’t cause economic stumbles works the best way for content like this

 

Addition:
Change the Map to a Minidungeon so its not crowded and people cant hogg the channel
in a optimalworld 1200 people can do it daily, which is quite optimistic since there are primetimes with active players

 

Some quikkk meth tells me that the best mages (previously killing boss in 5mins) should be looking at -50% bees while the 10min boss kills should be looking at -75% bees.

But of course, the time spent in each attempt -30%

 

To be fair, it is possible to take the numbers folks have gathered up till now, and place them against the adjusted numbers. It might not be 100% accurate, but it's fair to say these numbers could very well be "close enough". However, I assume the balancers have much more concrete numbers than I, so grain of salt and whatnot.

I'll have to see how much time I have for the bonus room given the bosses new health. (I never really learned what my dps was) That said, we can make inferences:

In the 2 weeks of daily RG I did on my FP, I averaged 34 gold dust in room 1, and (with a smaller sample size) 32 gold dust in room 3 via a poison/burn rotation. (It was actually pretty fun to shop this.)

Now with the mage ultimate drop-rate nerf, assuming I still manage to have 30 minutes of bonus room time, I would realistically be achieving:
~26 gold dust per bonus run of room 1. (This fairly assumes 90% of kills are via meteor doing more than 80% of the enemy's health.)
~28 gold dust per bonus run of room 3. (This blanketly assumes 50% of kills are via meteor doing more than 80% of the enemy's health.)

From here we could easily factor these gold dust numbers by the amount of time spent in the bonus room.
20 minutes:
~17 gold dust per bonus run of room 1.
~18.5 gold dust per bonus run of room 3.

10 minutes:
~8.5 gold dust per bonus run of room 1.
~9.25 gold dust per bonus run of room 3.

Napkin math aside, I do have thoughts on the other changes:

• The RG quest and bonus room sharing a timer I don't know how to feel about. It rewards strong players with more bonus room time, ie) more loot, and punishes those with less investment. This is fair for stuff like bosses where the difference in gear quality means a difference in boss kill time, not necessarily loot quality, but for RG it directly means more money for better players. If this design was intentional, then it's what it's. If it wasn't Id suggest reverting the bonus room timer and putting a slightly tighter boss dps check. Same means to an end.

• EXP nerf was justified. It really was an absurd amount for very little effort.

• The boss dropping stuff instead of the Ifia quest turn in is fine, just cuts a step. That said I don't really like that Chaos Scrolls were cut from the drop pool. (At least this is implied by the patch notes.) I can understand why folks see CS/WS as loot that should be kept rare, but I'd rather more exist in the game than less. More CS/WS means scrolling high tier gear becomes more accessible. I don't really care for the idea of this being gate-kept, but that's just me. Game has existed long enough that more methods of getting the means to better gear can be introduced.

• To add on to the previous point, I would have been totally down with gold dust losing it's meso conversion and being tradable for things like CS/WS. And if folks are worried about this injecting too many into the economy, make them specifically untradeable.

Finally, in reference to my last post, I can assume room 1 was made with the intention for FPs to spend their time there. I again wanna voice that I dislike that the room is just the worst of the three in terms of map layout and mob behavior. It bothered me enough that I tried doing poison/burn rotations in room 3 to see how it went and found that it actually was quite successful! It was just barely worse than room 1, but I was happy to give up on average 10 mil in exchange for like 10% more exp and a less frustrating experience. With the mage ultimate nerf, room 3 is now theoretically equal to or more profitable for me as an FP than the very room designed for FPs. This feels a bit silly, but I could just as easily say it rewards a more unique play-style beyond just spamming meteor. If anything I'd like to hear thoughts on this last point.

It was brought up before, balancers asking what we as the players want or expect from RG, so here is my take. I see LHC as a place of advancement; I come to the content to further my characters. I feel that having RG link more directly to that, specifically with untradeable versions of CS/WS/30%/etc would do wonders to both prevent people from running the content on 10+ mages a day, while also maintaining the idea that LHC can make you stronger.

 

17 powders on 19 min bon room as a lvl 200 bishop. Was getting like 35 powder on avg before with 30 min bon. Edit: 1501 TMA bs before echo
The dialogue for turning in the bouquet still shows it rewarding a box but the quest works as intended so that will need to be changed. The initial spawn for all the maps in bonus was nerfed, im assuming the original first spawn round was unintended but this means you end up getting like 3 less powder for free on top of all the other nerfs.

Big nerf overall, not sure if every single change needed to be done for the mages all at once, but it kind of isnt worth my time now


Picture of turn in quest dialogue after SC got SS after I tried RG again on BM

 

Relatively strong player here, think the total 40 minute timer is a bit rough. Doesn’t give us a time to catch a breather in the whole run either. Could we consider a flat 20minutes for bon rather than hard nerfing it outside of end game players?

Is it possible to also let the npc after boss warp us to map 1/2/3?

 

I agree with point 1, 2 and 4, while slightly disagreeing on point 3.

I think what @nut mentioned earlier on with his direction is and what he feels should change is ultimately covered in this adjustment.
1. KCG hp? Adjusted for both sides.
2. KCG and RG reward? Adjusted
3. RG exp gain? Adjusted

I do wonder what brought about the changes to the KCG run + BON itself and affecting mage spawn rates in the same adjustment. I do feel it's an overkill to the mage/bishops, especially if this content was meant for them to farm it out. If possible, would like to reconsider the previous style of Boss + BON having a separate timer? Like most boss runs in maple, all BONs have a separate timer itself from the actual run.

 

Kind of shocked totem drops didn't get nerfed, unless the boss drop rate on ring/earring is now horrendous. Still going to be fairly ridiculously profitable, methinks.

All in all a well adjusted emergency nerf, though I still wonder at the possibility of class balance, despite some people opining that "not every class has to be good at all content" as though this isn't a completely customizable content where the world is our oyster. I do almost sympathize with the thought that mages were overnerfed, because it feels like they were, but I'm sure the billions they made daily will tide them over until a broader understanding of these changes can develop.

But I shall run this a few times before posting real feedback on that point. Thanks for the hard work!

P.S. 40 minutes is lovely to echo outside before going in

 

Why remove the box? Some people I know only do Rose Garden without the bon just to get the box for a chance of CS.
If CS was too good of a reward, why not just change it to totems or something
What's even the point of doing Rose Garden for a mid tier funded player now? Some nerfed exp and 5 bees bonus stage?

 

You know the totems and nx alone had an average value of 65-70m, right? Not bad for a 20 minute run.

Anyone running for box CS only was being silly, and completely failing to understand what made RG profitable. That was never the value proposition of Rose Garden.

Edit: gg 11 min runs now LMAO

 

Until you pull 7 in 46 runs. Average time 25 mins/run = 19.17 hours spent (ignoring bonus), for 2.8b = 146m/hr from cs alone.

Yeah I got lucky, but even assuming cs is 5% chance instead of my experimental 15% that's still almost 50m/hr from just the cs.


What made (and still does) rose garden profitable is the combination of everything - totems, nx, cs, bees. Each individual piece isn't enough to make it worth running but they add up to be quite a bit.


Can't wait to see people multiclient just through the boss on all their attackers and make 500m/hr off totems LOL

 

Each individual piece is enough to make it worth running.

Got 1 cs in 85 runs but I never felt like I wasn't making more mesos than I've ever seen before in RG. 12b in 47 hours... 255m/hr...

In theory you're saying at your rates I would've made 350-400m/hr. No, the nerf does not mean that Rose Garden is not profitable. In fact I'm running on attackers now and with 10-11 minute clears to boss it feels like a buff if anything.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves for a few days yet.

 

some befores and after would be helpful here i think so ill add mine.

dark knight before 30 min bon<after 27 min bon effective meso loss from bees post nerf 10%
bishop before 30 min bon<after 14 min bon effective meso loss from bees post nerf 50-66%
both on gizer

i think we might want to remove 10m health from the boss for mages, this would give the boss 50% more health instead of 100% more thus making 20 min bonus more easily available for less funded mages while still keeping the more funded in the 25 min area.

 

Personally I'm a fan of most of the changes. Rose garden in its old form completely warped the entire game because the total rewards were so great that doing anything else didn't make sense. It also broke key parts of the economy like CS prices. In my opinion, content that encourages people to interact creates a much more rewarding experience, so I'm definitely biased towards bossing content. Some people would disagree with this, and those who do should have content such as rose garden so they can do their thing. The ideal solution is for both types of content to be equally viable so players can choose whichever path they enjoy most without sacrificing progression rate.

I do think the changes are a little too aggressive for mage mains though. I think it's perfectly fine for mages to be a bit better than attackers at rose garden if the goal of rose garden is to create content thats for end game solo grinders. Mages core identity is that they can farm/make mesos easily so it seems strange that they'd be bad at rose garden, especially when a lot of mages are already excluded from a lot of bossing content. I don't have the data on this but I would not be surprised if mages do 25-50% worse than attackers given the same amount of funding.

 

Alright, tried it out. Mostly same opinion.

My main is a bish with 1500 tma. Reasonable endgame, lots of room to grow.
I also run on pally with slightly under 11k range (using crushed skull). Probably can consider it roughly equivalent to bish in gearing. From what I've heard, pally is mid tier class here, above NL/BM but below shad which I think is best non-mage class.

Pre-update, with 30 min bonus rooms, I was getting 35 bees average on bish and 22 on pally. We can use this as a baseline to estimate post-update gains.

Today, I cleared in 21 minutes on bish, leaving 19 minutes of bonus. That's an expected rate of 17-22 bees, depending how much the -25% nerf is hitting. My actual rate was 17 bees. I probably got slightly unlucky.

This means in 40 minutes, I got 1x boss loot and 17 bees on bish.

Today, I cleared in 13.5 minutes on pally (better attackers can clear sub-10), leaving 26.5 minutes of bonus. That's an expected rate of 19 bees. My actual rate was 21. I probably got slightly lucky.

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So mages, the class that's supposedly so good at farming that even a small buff in bossing is entirely unreasonable, farm at roughly the same rate as an attacker not known for farming? How does that make sense, especially considering this is still an endgame farming zone that's on par/slightly beating skele leech?


Oh also I did the math on the ring:
- Assuming it's a 10% drop rate as that's almost exactly what I got it at from the box
- Assuming godly is still 1/20 to roll
- Assuming if it hits godly the regular and godly rolls are done separately (meaning it's 1/3*1/6 for perf stat instead of 1/8)
We get roughly 9.8 years on average to get a ring with 7 mainstat, running garden daily. Clearly this content is not meant to be played for the ring, and is played as daily farming content since no sane person would go for an item that, on average, would take them the entire time the server's been alive to get.

You say this like that's changed significantly. For anyone except mages, it really hasn't since boss is faster to kill now and gives same totem rewards (which gach into cs/ws/taru/bwg). This really was just an overly complicated nerf for mages, and buff for the strongest attackers as they can get >30 minute bonus now.

 

@sylafia

Things definitely have changed. The boxes are gone now which dropped a lot of CS. Also now that mages suck at rose garden, the impending doom of people making 5 mage mules spamming rose garden and flooding the market with cs is gone now. It's not a big deal if end game attackers with 50bil in net worth get buffed in rose garden because there's so few of them and it takes a lot of work to get another 50bil net worth attacker. You should be rewarded for being stronger.

To be clear, I think mages should be slightly better than attackers at rose garden given the same equips. What I don't want is for people to be able to make 5 170 bishops which takes much less work compared to how much work it used to take to get the same income 5 170 bishops would've had pre rose garden nerf compared to progression of content in other ways.

There is a way to make rose garden viable for mage mains and unviable for mage mules. That's what will include mage mains into the new content without destroying the economy.

 

You would be surprised. Its just as easy to run multiple attackers as it is to run multiple mages. Its easy to argue considering you get 1 set of CGS and transfer it between attackers, sure you can invest in multiple weapons but a bulk of your dmg is cgs. I personally ran 3 attackers 1bs, I've seen people run upwards to 8-10 attackers.