Should all Warrior classes have Total Crash rather than only Paladin?

It's been mentioned before this user commented but I really wanted to focus on this outside of the Skill Change feedback thread to gauge community interest. Would you be interested in all Warrior classes having Total Crash rather than only Paladin?

Currently, it feels very limiting to have this beneficial party buff be limited to only a single subclass of a Warrior. Not many people play Paladin or even want to play this class compared to the other two Warriors. You (or others) are stuck having to use a White Knight/Paladin mule for Crash. If you're playing Hero/Dark Knight, then you can't commit to a party in the same way as a Paladin can on Weapon Cancel bosses. In comparison to the Archer class, both subclasses can provide Sharp Eyes buff, allowing some flexibility. Hero/Dark Knight can't do that.

I think for improved Quality of Life for the server, we should make all Warriors capable of giving the Total Crash effect. There's a few ways to go about this:

• Option A: Allow all Warriors to retain Defense/Attack Crash (giving Paladins the ability to dispel DEF again) and add a new 3rd job skill, Total Crash, that requires 10 or 19 points of DEF/ATK Crash and is a 1-point skill to max
• Option B: Remove Total Crash skill and make Defense/Attack Crash (giving Paladins the ability to dispel DEF again) remove DEF/ATK UP while also buffing teammates with Total Crash effect
• Option C: Give Hero/Drk a 1-point Total Crash in 4th job

This would allow party compensations for the average player to be more flexible and reduce the burden of obtaining a Paladin player or Attacker with a WK/Pally mule for certain bosses.

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EDIT: Since other people might try to read through the OP quick and not have seen the rest of the comments, I'll add additional info:

The hope for this suggestion is to be coupled with having:

• Paladins get a return of DEF Crash (which is a valuable skill for Warrior, which I'm surprised nobody is acknowledging)
  
• The class gets additional changes as part of the Skill Change rework
• Paladin's Total Crash has a better breakthrough rate than Hero/Drk

 

What about remove WA cancel completely?

 

I can see arguments for why crash being exclusive to paladins being a detriment to other warriors but I think a total crash would far greater hurt the need for pally mains / their uniqueness

 

I'd like for Weapon Cancel to be removed or reworked. There was a fantastic idea for a cancel rework but that wouldn't be possible here. Royals will continue with how Cancel is, I just want to make it better for the average player.

My suggestion would work along with the greater scope of the Skill Change rework. Paladins needs some touch ups to make the class more appealing such as removing the Damage cap.

One thing I can suggest is allowing Paladins to have a greater Weapon/Magic Cancel rate than Heroes and Drks. So people will still be inclined to bring a Paladin over a Hero/Drk if the party comp allows it

 

I never played a warrior in GMS, but my understanding is that there was no Total Crash back then (?), so I guess there's no real basis for only Paladins having it. If we're thinking about how things *should* work we don't just need to consider how things *currently* work because we made that up

I think if this was implemented right now, Paladins will basically become completely irrelevant and no one will play it. But I don't think that's a problem with your idea, I think that's a problem with how Paladins are balanced. Right now people are being *forced* to make Paladins when they don't want to, because they *need* crash. This just results in mules. It shouldn't be like that. The class should be appealing on its own and people should *want* to main it as a legitimate attacker.

Like you said, if this were rolled out alongside other changes that make Paladins more appealing and give them a better place in the game, then I think there's no reason why we couldn't be more flexible about giving the other warriors this buff too.

 

Since all warriors use the role of an attacker imo they all should have total crash, however bishops are usually a support class rather than attackers compared to arch mages (pre BB and also later on when arch mages got buffed to numbers that they could solo zak/ht alone but bishop remained a support class with very low damage).

Peehaps to keep Paladin relevant the % of success for total crash to work by heroes/drks can be reduced a little in case that it threats the future of Paladins taking part on bosses

 

I was thinking HS could be a common skill available to all classes, similar to MW. I'm tempted to say that mobility skills like teleport/flash jump could also be common skills, but that may change the game too much. We play this game for the 'nostalgia' of classic Maple. Why not let the game remain imbalanced as it is? For example, there have been no real attempts to address the lack of bossing utility for archmages, so it could be argued that this type of imbalance is simply an intrinsic part of the game at this point, a necessary 'evil' we need to live with (similar to HP washing). Nevertheless, I do believe that smaller changes could be made that can allow more bossing viability for the less represented classes, this being one of them.

Shad OP enough as it is. Give FJ to warriors. #KeepShadsSlow

 

What is the point of making a poll if we're just gonna remove it whenever it's not in favor of your suggestion?

Anyway, I think it's fine as it is. I wouldn't wanna see this change.

 

Summarising the key points mentioned by OP on why he advocates for Total Crash on ALL warrior classes:
1) Very limiting to have this beneficial buff be limited to only a single subclass
2) Improved Quality of Life/Flexibility
3) Whether the community is interested in some changes

Please allow me to ignore OP's suggestions & data for now, and touch on these points instead.
1) Very limiting
Not every run is REQUIRED to be fast, this is an old-school server.
Even though not ideal, you can do a run just fine without Crash, albeit a slightly longer one (which is linked to QoL)


2) Improve QoL/Flexibility (in the sense of faster/smoother runs, easier to form party)
I agree with OP that this will improve QoL.

But from a holistic view, I would not like to see this change(s).
1) Encouraging people to make a paladin contributes to meso sink to our overly inflated economy.
2) Most of the contents are already heavily toned down for the average player base.
3) Paladin is arguably the weakest warrior in late to end game. "Buffing" other warriors is an indirect nerf to Paladins. unless as mentioned, the aforementioned proposed changes are rolled out with other buffs to Paladin.

A question to OP, if warriors have these changes, should all other classes also benefit from having other subclasses party buffs based on the 3 key points that you mentioned?

PS - Please return me the forum likes

 

Most people prefer faster runs. Hence, why CR is often sought out for when recruiting. Nobody likes seeing their character do 1 damage.

1) Meso sink? Leeching a Paladin would mostly involve mesos transferred between characters, which would only take the usual 3% tax from the economy.
2) Ok then, let's have content that can only be run by a handful of people on the server. I'm sure that'll be fun for the 6 of you.
3) Of course adjustments would need to be made to Paladin if this change is made. As it stands, the other two warriors are hardly used in bossing at all (despite the fact that some people seem to enjoy the challenge of Zerking tough bosses). Perhaps another option is to find a way to make Hero/Drk more compelling. Otherwise, it seems that the other two warrior classes will simply have to contend with being relegated to 'Archmage' status.

That depends. A buff to Shads by giving them NL skills would seem nonsensical at this point, while considerations for other (less overpowered) classes may be more reasonable.

 

Rather than going off-topic in this thread, you can PM me if you want a discussion on that. You can read my post here before you PM.

I agree but using Horntail as an example, people won't run Horntail unless you have Crash.

People are not encouraged to make a paladin because of your point in #3, paladins are the weakest warriors. So people would rather make a pally mule, and not have to invest any mesos or very little mesos. Which doesn't contribute into the meso sink, but instead makes it worse

What are you referring to when you say most content is toned down? What content and how has it been toned down?

I agree. My suggestion isn't intended to make Paladins worse off, it's to be coupled with other buffs to the class. One thing that people glance over with my suggestion is returning DEF Crash back to Paladin, which would make Pallys slightly stronger in situations where a boss/mobs have DEF. Also, in case you missed, I mentioned in my earlier comment for Paladins to have a greater Weapon/Magic Cancel rate than Heroes and Drks. So people will still be inclined to bring a Paladin over a Hero/Drk if the party comp allows it.

 

The problem with this feedback thread is exactly this.
Paladin mains aint gonna be happy when whats unique to them to be removed, without a proper buff to match them to other classes.

What makes you think Defense Crash will not solve the problem and increase the pick rate of paladin over a DrK that simply does more damage in horntail?

Paladin is a mule right now, and after your suggested changes, paladin wouldn’t even be a mule lmfao.

 

Drk being a HB + CR mule at their 3rd job would be crazy I guess

 

Are you playing Paladin enough yourself to consider what I'm suggesting? I play Paladin nearly daily and have had the class for many years. This is part of the broader skill change rework along with other changes suggested in the skill change thread that others chipped in on. You're not saying much.

 

Thank you for sharing your post. I enjoyed reading it.
However, this was a simple SHOULD or SHOULD NOT question, which linked back to the 3 key points of your original post.

I agree that most players will not want to run HT without Crash, but there are stuff you can do like de-syncing/pushing for cancel WA.

My point is, if they want a faster run, bring a Paladin. If they don't have one, what's stopping them from making one?
Why is there a need to change the skill system for people who want to enjoy the benefits of a fast run but do not want to put in the additional effort to make it happen?

It is detrimental to the market if it is easily accessible.

An analogy would be: The entry requirements (crash buff) for a prestigious job (horntail) is tough. Instead of putting in the effort (making the paladin), you decide it would be better to propose (writing a feedback thread) lowering the requirements. Let’s assume the company (game balancer) listens and accepts your proposal. Now, every Tom, Dick, and Harry (everyone) can enter easily. Would the job still be considered prestigious (rare drops lower value)?

Before you ask whether I play Paladin. Yes, I do. My Paladin reached 200 a few years ago, and here is my selling thread. I believe these can be considered late/end-game gears. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/war...t-shield-18-str-ep.208270/page-2#post-1445898

Incorrect. People are HIGHLY encouraged to make a Paladin/Crash mule, especially in the early to mid game.
They are highly sought after before they get switched out for another class once signs of diminishing returns start to show. Point #3 applies only to late/end-game Paladins.

I should have used Resource sink rather than Meso sink.
Resource as in anything invested into building the character that will reduce the injection of mesos into the economy. (e.g vote NX for APR, time spent to level etc)

In general, Auf & VL has already been toned down in comparison to the original release. For the specifics, you can check the update logs that is available for everyone.

But since you already brought up HT, let's use it as an example.

Before Total Crash was a buff, if you wanted a fast run, 3 paladins was required. (out of which, majority of them were mules)
Now that Total Crash is a buff, it incentivize players to keep Paladin in the party. But keeping it in a party also means taking up a slot, so early-mid game players would rather have an attacker paladin than a mule for a fast run.

If we do a comparison between back then and now, I think most would agree that it has been toned down.

An ideal feedback thread should have a good flow. Before you even provide any suggestions on WHAT the changes should be, there must be a STRONG basis on WHY the change is needed.
Personally, your 3 points felt like it was hastily put together without much thought, and they were unconvincing.
Many of the feedbacks could also easily been thrown under these "umbrella" points. (such as HS for mages, or SI for corsairs)
It would've also been better for your feedback to share the source of your data regarding the claim of other subclasses being more popular than Paladin.

 

Is Paladin really the least played class compared to the other two warriors?



I wish we had a full breakdown of the classes made in 2023.

I think Paladin is the best of the 3 classes personally

• Best Single Target of the 3 with still viable AoE
• Utility that makes it a near necessity to run certain content (HT, Zak, Nibergen, Scarga)
• Personally think Paladin is better in VL than those 2 if you have bishops who understand what dispel does
• Viable Auf attacker (I'm not counting you duo atking with your NL+Hero. Without your NL you would not be recruited to most parties as a solo Hero attacker, lets be honest)

Although a good amount of those Paladins created are definitely mules. Still, I think most of them are genuinely new players who tried it out and maybe did not like it.

I've run into plenty of newer Paladin players. I think you can argue people don't see the point in really late-game funding one. But I would rather a class have a vibrant community of early to midgame players than a overall low playerbase and maybe 2-3 dedicated players who are genuinely trying to push end game (I'm talking about hero).

I think Dark Knight may be more popular than Paladin, but I believe Hero is less popular than Paladin.

Heroes:

• Heroes need something completely unique to them to make them more desirable as well as a slight dpm buff
• The biggest issue is they have no useful enough utility and lack too much single target damage (ST), realistically speaking, Hero should not ever come even close to touching NL ST dmg
• Even if you buff hero ST damage to be higher than let's say Bowmaster, I still don't want a hero on my HT squad because it makes mules and juggling difficult.
• I believe Haplopelma was the one who thought of the Crash changes or at least a large chunk of it
• I'm not talking about you specifically, but to all the threads/people I see that say buff hero buff hero buff drk buff hero, suggest something worthwhile then.
• And I don't meant "just let rage stack 4head", no that's a horrible suggestion, you're only suggesting that because it's a quick lazy suggestion you've seen 10 other people write and subsequently were shot down. hero just becomes another mule and I still don't really want a hero on my squad (someone actually playing it vses a rage mule)

Edit:
I’d like to point out I’m not trying to flame Darko. While I may not agree with all his suggestions, I can tell he at least puts time and effort into thinking of them and I find most of his posts interesting and worthwhile to read.

 

Alright Mr paladin master, enlighten this young padawan here on how your suggested
CR+HB mule will not outpower my crash mule.

 

To all those who are against this change and want to continue gatekeeping CR, consider this:
Does buffing classes make your own class weaker? No, it doesn’t. I'm sure Pallys will be plenty useful even if this change is made. It simply gives others classes that opportunity to run content that others take for granted.

Dark Knight might be the most popular warrior class for newer to mid-level players (probably due to the terrible 3rd job grind of Crusader/WK) but definitely gets outshined by Pally in higher level content. Hero/Drk can also excel at leveling based content such as LHC and Shao, but these activites become irrelevant once one hits lvl 200. Right now my Drk looks like it’s simply going to end up being an HB + Echo mule for Goby leech at 200, without much other use in the endgame. I don’t find much motivation or incentive to continue to fund and gear it as there is not much content that seems to be worthwhile for it. Running RG/CWK is an option, although these activities fall short of the profits that can be generated from leeching and mage farming. At least Hero is able to run Auf, so there’s a viable endgame use for that class. So for the endgame, I'd say Pally > Hero > Drk. Feel free to disagree and outline your reasons as to why.

Drk noob here, but I find HB to be less and less relevant at higher levels since most players at that point will be washed have grinded out enough HP quests to not require it. And due to the need for Drks to Zerk and manual pot late game bosses, once cannot simply multiclient while dealing consistent damage with Drk like one can with Hero/Pally.

When it comes to muling, one could argue that every class is a mule (lol). Attackers are DPS mules. Bishops are HS/Res/dispel mules, etc. The point here is to make it so that as many classes have at least a somewhat viable use in the end game, in order to justify continuing to play and fund that character. Otherwise everyone should just quit their character and make a Shad.

 

As I talked with Darko in game, I undertand his point about all Warriors have total crash and I'll say my opinion here:

IMO if change this Now I wouldn't agree cuz as I said to him that I think everybody would stop recruiting paladin for runs like ZK/HT cuz drk/hero would be better there with multi targets. But I wouldnt mind if there was more benefits for pally (at least uncap the blast that IDK why still capped tbh.../ lower the animation from HH/make the element not abble to be dispelled)

But anyway IMO if this changes Now I just think a lot of pple would stop playing paladin to make drk/hero, I think there is a LOT of stuff that still need upgrade and change for warriors