Clarification on ~mapowner rules.

Some of us were discussing the more controversial ~mapowner cases, and I was hoping we could get clarification so that the players and GMs could be on the same page and have a reference we could link to in our reports.

1) What are the rules for juggling multiple maps? Say someone is holding two or more Bigfoot or Skele maps at the same time by ccing and planting a couple attacks.
Is this allowed? If so, what proof should we obtain before taking one of the maps? Can we screenshot a chat full of /finds of them switching channels? Do we need to actually screenshot them in both channels? Something else?

2) What are the rules for holding an individual map? Does the person have to be able to kill what is in the map in order to hold it? Say it is a BF map and you're just poking the BF with a damage at a time waiting for your friend or your alt to get to you. Or what if you're killing the Jr. Wraiths in a map with BF in it. Again, if there is a situation in which you are allowed to take the map, what proof should be taken before the map is taken in order to defend yourself?

 

The thing is that I don't believe the GMs have made a public ruling on it. But they have expressed individual opinions in Report threads before.
Here Daniel explains he believes AFKing in a map -more or less equivilant to holding a map you cannot maintain- should be against the rules.
Here is a similar one where John explains he's previously told players that they are not allowed to hold maps for guildmates.

Although those two posts are a bit old and I believe the GMs may have changed their opinions, such as in this thread where the GMs determined that as far as bossing goes, mapowner takes precedence over all.

EDIT:
Also the problem with only allowing map ownership on one map at a time is that if someone accidentally uses a skill while returning to their map, or if you're a shadower like me that uses assaulter for mobility, etc. then you would not be able to get back to your map at full speed. So you get to your map slower, and you risk losing ownership if you need to defend yourself on the way back to the map.

 

I'm wondering if you're the White priest/bishop that had a problem with me holding two skele channels earlier. I didn't just plant "a couple" of attacks. I misted the entire map so when I cced back I could 1 hit everything. I was able to maintain both maps very well and only stayed in each one long enough to kill the 1hped skeles and mist again. This is a very common way for fire poison mages to train. Either way, if my party had split up both the maps would have been taken anyway.

Now, if I was sitting in a map on a lower level char, say 30, just to hold the map then yeah that's a dick move. But as an f/p, training in two maps is much faster. (Either way it's a dick move but whatever, I wasn't breaking any rules and I was able to maintain and train in both maps). Obviously if the rules change I won't be doing this anymore. I would never hold two maps just for shits and giggles. You, and other people, are MORE than able to train in a different map until a more popular map opens up. Would you have the same issue if I was training in a less popular place? Say, the map to the right of skeles where no one trains?

As for the boss maps, I don't really have much of an opinion on that because I don't boss. My way of thinking is if you got there first, it's yours.

 

I, personally, don't believe a player should be able to hold two channels at once. Especially at a highly valued map such as skeles.

My opinion.

EDIT: I have not changed my opinion, it's something I believe very strongly in

 

So could you give guidelines on what evidence you feel we should take before we try taking one of these maps from the other party?
This is given we've tried using ~gm, and at this point options are more or less limited to trying to claim a map in which we do not have ~mapowner. What evidence should we gather so that we can easily defend ourselves if a report is made against us.

This wasn't me, like I said its just something that came up in the shoutbox today. The person you're referring to may have been the one that started the conversation. I'm not sure.

My original example was just the most controversial case in which the maps are not even being used. I understand that it is more efficient for you to train this way, but you're consuming what most would consider more than your fair share of valuable and limited resources by yourself.

The reason that noone would have a problem with this in a less popular place because people aren't fighting for map ownership there. But you do bring up a middle ground that we might be able to reach? I think most people would understand if you maintained your Skele map along with another less popular adjacent map at the same time. This would hopefully still be more efficient training for you, but you wouldn't be taking up valuable maps at the same time?

As far as bossing goes, it's more or less the same thing. The bigger question held there is if someone is killing the Jr. Wraiths in a BF map (Two mobs with drastically different stats) in order to hold ownership of the map, do they technically have claim over the BF as well?

 

Well it's his opinion, so it's not official Staff procedure or anything.

 

Before you start asking these questions we need more than one gm's personal opinion on it. It needs to be declared that taking a map from someone who is dual channel training is okay and not against the rules.

 

I understand that his opinions are not those which are expressed and will be followed by the rest of the staff. I was just wondering what he felt was sufficient proof. That way, if other GMs and Admins come into this thread, they can address not only how we should handle it on our side, but how they can handle it on theirs as well.

 

I'm not against a rule like this being implemented, it's all up to the staff, but whats to stop two people from claiming the same person is dual channeling and each person taking one of the original person's channels? Resulting in the original person having no channel at all. How is this going to be decided? Sorry, I'll probably have more questions after this

 

I don't see that happening. Mapowner command currently makes an SS show ALL proof required to make a decision on a case. This would entail a much more in - depth investigation case by case

 

Yea I understand how hard something like this would be to implement. Thats a large reason why I wanted Daniel's input as well. Of course I wouldn't want you to lose both your maps.
Although I believe once you lose one of your maps, you could just stay in the second one. It may be a pain for a few minutes, but if you show you're staying in a map for longer than 3 minutes so that all your other ownerships would expire, their argument would prove invalid.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. It seems like such a hassle to make a rule about this.

Would that person in my map trying to gain ownership be banned for ksing me if they stay if my other channel was taken? Would they be banned if they knew the other one was taken? Would they be banned if they didn't know the other one was taken? Would they not be banned at all and get away with ksing me by claiming ignorance? Would I have to make a thread to show that I am indeed the mapowner and I'm only the owner of one map? In the process of doing that lose my map anyway and miss out on training time? This is just so complicated

I should probably only mist two maps in maps that aren't so valuable but if I find two open skele channels I will definitely take advantage of it.

I should also probably wait for more staff input haha


Edit: I should include this, out of the 3 or 4 people that came into both my maps not one asked if they could have one of the maps.

 

Bumping in an attempt for some more feedback

 

This is just my personal opinion but I'd say juggling a boss map/holding one shouldn't be allowed. And although juggling 2 normal maps is what I deem "okay", I'd say holding one shouldn't be.

As for this, I highly doubt people would go there just for killing wraiths. It's not that hard to go back to Kerning from NLC either.

 

The only downside I see to this is that it puts the burden of knowledge on newer players and can potentially be abused by veterans on people who are not familiar with the command since it doesn't exist in other clients or servers AFAIK.

If I claim map owner on hhg and say some noob is killing snails does he have any recourse?

 

His recourse is you being a nice map owner and informing them that you own the map, showing them such via ~mapowner, and then politely asking them to CC or leave the map. If they don't understand why, you can explain what the ~mapowner command is, what it does, and why it establishes you own the map. It's all about communicating and being respectful towards one another.