Why do people turn down additional bowmasters for boss parties? Bow masters have one of the best DPS rates in the game coming in just behind NLs and Sairs. It's almost like people think a bowmaster just uses sharp eyes and just sits there for the entire boss fight with no attacking capabilities. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience playing as a bowmaster?
bms are seen as a utility class. the sharp eyes don't stack so why have two people of the same class with the same party buff that doesn't stack when you can have another character benefit from the buff and output more damage? not a shunning thing. every party NEEDS one but that's it.
I agree that bow masters are seen as a utility class (even though they are one of the best damage dealers in the game) but if I'm gonna take that logic, then why ever take a hero or even multiple heroes for boss runs when they provide no utility and have lower dps than bowmasters NL and corsairs. (Yes i know they can hit multiple targets). I'm pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing cause I'm just a little salty =P. Still though.
it's because they can hit multiple targets at a stable enough dps, as well as providing utility for different other means by tanking
The ability for heroes to provide stable dps to multiple targets shouldn't be overlooked. Heroes also provide mob control during bosses which is a definite plus that many ranged attackers can appreciate in their parties.
I've found that Heroes do a lot of dps, possibly even more than BMs if you're considering their multiple hits. BMs would win 1v1, but don't forget that a hero is attacking 3 body parts which would make it edge out in dps. Plus, having multiple warriors means you can magnet body parts to cancel wep attack, which means extra dps from warriors. All in all, there are better choices than 2 BMs in terms of dps. While the first BM is very important, it falls off in importance greatly. Warriors bring high dps, mob control, and HB (if it's a DK), NLs/Sairs bring better DPS, I'd even prefer a bucc after those since the warriors & sairs benefit from SI (but I'm biased because I have a Hero).
Actually to single targets a bowmaster only does about 66% of a NL's damage provided the NL is also getting SE. If the NL doesn't have SE, then they're about equal with the nightlord coming out JUST ahead (at equal funding levels) Heroes blow them both out of the water if there's three targets iirc. While a BM is certainly better than an equally funded MM, bucc, paladin, or any of the mages at bosses, they're far from having a "good" damage output.
Lol, interesting discussions. However, I do believe BM does out dps NL assuming the NL has no SE. I guess I'll just end my part in this discussion by saying I wish people wouldn't take bossing so super seriously. While this is something that is unlikely to change as people hold great importance over min maxing, top dps, collecting useless things, I would much rather be friendly and accepting to all players. I mean is it really such a huge deal to compromise between an extra BM or NL or Hero Bucc Pally Dark knight? Even today I was zaking with my guild and we let another bowmaster into our party and he asked "Is it really ok if we have 2 SE" to which i replied "Yes, its really ok." I guess some people place a lot of importance on shaving a few minutes off a boss run. TLDR: What are you doing in my swamp?
I think it is pretty unfair for people to say "people shouldn't take bossing seriously". For some people, they play this game for the reason of getting to end game and bossing well. If they want to play the game as efficiently as possible, then I don't think we should judge them for it. Secondly, if there is already 1 BM in the party, I don't see why the NL wouldn't have SE so that argument just never makes sense. It makes much more sense to have 1 NL and 1 BM for undeniably more damage than to take a 2nd BM.
I think the best way to solve this is to have 2 equal parties, one with 2 BMs, one with 1 BM and something else (Hero, NL) and see who does a faster run. I think people far too often fall into the trap of "Everybody else does it this way, so it must be the best approach to take" Remember, in all games, strategy plays a role, but that doesn't mean only one strategy is best. And I do agree people take bossing way too seriously. Whether it's people scheduling their lives around boss runs, people flipping out when they get DCed during a run, arguments/grudges that arise over splits or things said "in the heat of battle", it does get a bit much sometimes. To be honest, beside the fact I don't play my legit enough, another part of the reason I haven't even Zakked on my legit is I don't understand/want to follow some formula in a group to boss. I'm in part afraid of getting yelled at for not standing in the corner, or forgetting to rebuff SE as soon as it expires and getting yelled at by everyone. But now I'm derailing this topic, so I'll end here
The way I read it he suggests to have 2 runs with equal parties (In party size and Gear I assume), where 1 run has a party with 2 BMs and 1 run where 1 of the 2 BMs is replaced by something else like a Hero or Nightlord. These runs don't have to be at the same time so they could be performed by the same players, as long as they take note of how long the run has taken. I doubt he implied to bring 2 or 3 parties to 1 boss run to see who does a faster run because you'd be killing the same boss in the same map so how would you see the difference.
I miss read that. this is obviously what people have been doing for the last 3years and since classes didn't have any major changes in this time I am pretty sure we got a good idea of what is the most efficent way to kill bosses already. but even if we know how the optimal party looks like it doesnt mean that your party is always going to look like that. sometimes you might end up getting 2 bms on your run and it usually doesnt make the run that much slower, but if you can get a night lord then you would most likely chose that nightlord because then the run will most likely be a bit faster. people who play many hours a day usually dont mind waiting for another nightlord instead of brining a bm because they can do something else while they wait, its just a matter of being efficient. adding that last bm to your party will just give you more work for the same gain.
I wish i can be part of your magical world where i can find 2 bms, nls are a dime a dozen. Anyway on topic, alot of bms seem to be not well funded as its considered a 2nd character or se mule, so naturally they r weaker and a 2nd bm will delay the run several minutes compared to a nl, and thats higher chances of d/c and dying especially for buyers
But see again, that's what I'm saying. The logic you are using isn't "I tried it myself and this is what I found to be most efficient or the best approach while I'm bossing." Instead you are saying, "This is the way everyone else does it so it MUST be right/best/whatever superlative you want to put here" And that's all I'm trying to say. Look, if you want to keep doing things your way to get the run done as quickly as possible so you can get rich as quick as possible, or whatever your goal is for using your method, that's perfectly fine. But at the same time, I would really like to see more diversity in structure for runs, and I would really like to find a group doing a Zak or HT run where me as a self-admitted bossing noob can actually go on the run without getting yelled at for not doing things "the right way" because believe it or not, there's no "right way" of bossing. So long as the boss gets beaten, you've accomplished the goal set by the game. The other goals of speed, efficiency, DPS, are all set by you, the players.
So I'm speaking of personal experience I along with a few other players have probably done more ht(haven't done full pt zak in like 2years) than the rest of the server combined, I'm not telling anyone that they shouldn't experiment to find different strategies, if someone asks me then sure i will let them know how to set up the more efficent party but I'm not trying to tell everyone that this is the way to do it and you can't do it differently. I am pretty sure that not everyone has the same intentions going to a boss runs some people might just want to have fun, socialize and try to defeat a new boss, I also somtimes go on runs just to socialize. If you want to go to a boss run as a noob, as long as you admit that youre a noob and dont claim to be experienced bosser I doubt that anyone would start yelling at you as long as you do what the experienced people ask you to do. I'm not saying that you have to do what ppl tell you. but you know sometimes taking peoples advice might be good too, especially if the people giving you the advice actually know what they are talking about. then when you get a bit more experienced with bossing then you have a decent perspective of how it works and you can try out new different things. No one who is giving advice on how to boss is telling you that you have to do it a certain way we are simply just telling you could do it and of course we are going to tell you the most easy and efficient way rather than telling you all the different combinations you could try or telling you all the ways you could not do it. If you want to do it the same way then thats fine, if you want to do it differently thats fine too. I personally know that theres a whole bunch of ppl doing ht differently but most of them share the same goal. thats why we see a lot of runs have pretty similar structure of partys, killing order and so on. I think we should be happy that the players set their own goals in this game because without these individual goals there would probably not be quite as many people playing, I mean theres not a whole lot of new content coming out and you get kind of desensitised after killing one boss a couple of times, its not really that much of an accomplisment anymore. people can still chose how they want to play the game if your only goal is to kill the boss then thats fine just do it. I don't see why you have to complain about the way other ppl go about their playing.
