As you probably have noticed, prices for WS/CS are very unstable right now. Given the limitation for meso trading (being 2.147b the limit to how many mesos you can trade), WS/CS are clearly the main currency and go-to items for trades that exceed that meso amount. Therefore, the crazy fluctuation on these items prices represent a challenge for those people that want to buy/sell items which value is higher than 2.147b. Why should these items be sold at a NPC? Simple. Because there should be a clear and real idea on the value of time. What do I mean by this? Think it this way: in old source you knew that 3 hours of skele leech represented 1WS/CS. So, independently of whether you played 1,2 or 24 hours a day, 3 hours meant 1WS/CS. That meant that you knew how much effort had to be done in order to achieve that item you were looking for. Perfect Weapon? Sure, 70 WS=21b=210 hours (in average) How about 5 chaos scrolls to try scrolling that cape? Alright, 5 CS=1.5B=15 hours. You get the idea: certain amount of time was equal to certain amount of mesos which was also equal to certain amount of WS/CS. Now the problem becomes the fact that you don´t know anymore how much time you got to put into the game to achieve what you striving for. For example, WS prices are around 370m and rising every day at the moment. You even see some people buying for 400m. That means that, if you are able to find them that is, you now need to dedicate 1/3 MORE OF YOUR TIME MINIMIUM than before to achieve the same simply because rates are not what they used to be. That is just not fair for new players or people aiming to perfect a weapon or chaosing now The solution? Again, easy. Make a NPC that sells WS and CS for a fixed price. Let´s say 300m for WS and 320m for CS, pretty much like it was in old source. With this implemented everyone gets the same reward for the same amount of time. If you sell leech 1 hour a day, congratz you can buy 1/3 of WS. You play 9 hours a day? Little worried about you but great my friend, have yourself 3 WS. You see? More time dedicated=more results. In contrast now, I may sell 3 hours of leech today and find out that tomorrow WS has increased 20m each, making my money and time lose value. Now I can think of 2 concerns that might arise if this is implemented. Let me present them and discuss them: What about Gachapon? And meso sinking? Easy again. Keep WS and CS as a prize from Gacha. That way there still is a "big price" in Gacha and people will keep buying tix instead of AP Resets. The trick is in making this NPC that sells WS/CS also able to buy WS/CS from players. So let´s say the NPC sells WS for 300m. I go and buy a WS for 300m from this guy. Then I go with this WS and trade another fellow player a certain item for my WS. This fellow player that sold me the item now has a WS in his possession. So now, he can take it to the NPC and the NPC buys it from him for the original price (300m) MINUS TAX (6% for 100m+ I think). Also players that get the WS/CS from Gacha can go and sell it to the NPC for that amount. As you see, in the end tax is applied the same way as it is now: the guy who ends up selling the scroll for mesos is the one paying taxes. And players still have the chance to get those scrolls from Gacha and sell them for a fixed price, keeping Gacha a worthy thing to spend NX on. Again, this whole problem presents itself given that there is a limitation on how many mesos can be traded in a single trade. Correct me if I´m wrong but I think that is something that simply can´t be changed. Now, if WS/CS had a fixed price, this problem no longer persists. Many of you might say that this rise in prices is just temporary and that once merchants are back and player base stabilized their price will settle. And that is probably true, but irrelevant at the same time: if the prices settle but at a higher value than before then people that put the same time as those that did when prices were lower become poorer. Raising leech prices could be an option, but let´s face it, there is always someone willing to sell for cheaper and value their time lower, just as happens with Stoppers at the moment. Implementing this NPC means everyone's time is valued the same and the only thing that changes between one player and the other is luck (might take you 60 WS for you to perfect your weapon and 90 for me, but that´s just luck) and not time dedicated to buy those scrolls. I truly think this could be a great implementation to the game. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.
If a GM even bothers to reply to this idea, they'll most likely respond with one of 2 reasons: 1. Idea rejected because they're afraid someone will figure out a way to duplicate items. 2. Idea rejected because it's not a nostalgic feature. I really like this idea, or an npc that converts mesos to an item, but sadly I don't think it'll ever be implemented.
The reason the prices are going up on WS/CS (in my opinion) is because of this event allowing everyone to get stupid easy cash.
Instead of selling White Scrolls and Chaos Scrolls for a fixed price in an NPC, I personally think that there should be an ETC item that could represent a certain amount of Mesos that you could buy and sell to an NPC for 300mil. White Scrolls and Chaos Scrolls are also used to enhance equips, so making them easier to obtain--since you, can get them infinitely from the NPC--can cause way more people to grab hold of White Scrolls, making more godly equips.
The whole "Gold Bullion" idea is a problem because if theres a dupe bug, you could dupe a bunch of things that have a static meso value, although, I think its worth the risk... or they should introduce a dynamic system like WoW, every 2.1b mesos becomes X, every 100 X becomes Y, etc, like the whole copper/silver/gold thing
I might be wrong (hella tired atm) but it sounds like a meso gain rather than a meso sink tbh. Either way I dislike the concept since it'd not only put the meso currency but also the WS & CS market into danger due to potential dupes/exploits. No it isn't.
2 scrolls shouldn't determine an economy and WS/Chaos scrolls shouldn't be so expensive, either way you look at it things are the way they are and GM's on this server have a hard time with anything that isn't "nostalgia". Implementing anything at this point is a long while in the future considering we still don't even have shops after 6 months. I disagree with a merchant seller but I do agree with a previous thread that suggested they be drops like they actually were in gms, all the elitist douches will always disagree with anything regarding Ws/Cs considering their main currency are these 2 items.
worst mistake anyone could have made is making these items a staple item for currency, and not following gms drop tables and labelling it as nostalgia
If you don't make it an "Item" then there's no way to dupe it. A work around is making every X amount of mesos into something else, a different currency just like mesos. You can trade mesos for example but they're not in one of the 9 squares as an item, there's no reason they can't do the same with something else.
I am well aware that I get dismissed for writing walls of text. To members of staff, it is my hope that you reconsider glancing over this post. I have made my very best effort to advocate for fixing the WS and chaos situation on the server in both this and the other thread, and to lay it out as clearly as possible to you, Matt and John, so you might be able to understand how important the situation is to the players. I'm attached to this game and invested in its success, which is why I have gone through such effort to explain and propose a solution for something I genuinely am concerned is deteriorating the server and its economy. It is my hope that you two and the other members of staff, but you two in particular, will read this and seriously consider what the server currently is and is currently heading towards. I also hope this issue will be discussed in staff chats and fixed one way or another. Please don't make more bad decisions by thinking this WS and chaos situation is fine. I'm in favor of this idea. As far as I know about NPC scripting, coding an NPC to allow players to buy WS and chaos for a set amount and have that NPC buy those two items back with tax applied shouldn't be too difficult. It takes time and effort yes, but it should be reasonably doable. So my point here is to argue in favor of having this feature implemented. In old source, WS and chaos prices were stable, WS at 300m and chaos at 320m, but I'll be saying their prices were 300m for the sake of simplicity. This already took players 3 hours of dedicated gameplay to afford one of these scrolls. Acquiring WS and chaos in old source was never easy. It took time and effort. And a lot of it. To just get one. But then their prices went up. You would think, after four months of most of the playerbase voting daily to get all their NX hoarded for their big gach runs upon gach being enabled, that WS and chaos prices would go DOWN. But they didn't. Of all the players who had hundreds and hundreds of ticket runs, prices for WS and chaos went up. You would think that with such an influx in supply of these scrolls, it stands to reason that prices should go down. But they did not. The supply of the scrolls was actually lower because the rates of obtaining them from gach were lower, because the gach item tables were modified to distribute new iTCG items with the advent of the new source. The problem of the abnormally high WS and chaos prices is fundamentally the problem with the current gach system and the rate of WS and chaos being obtained. However, apart from the revision of the gach item tables, having an NPC to distribute and purchase WS and chaos is a very good idea. It is NOT a good idea to leave WS and chaos prices as they are, abnormally high and continuing to trend upward. There is absolutely no reason to make WS and chaos harder to obtain when everyone already had to spend three hours to obtain them when they were stable at 300m. The argument that there's too many perfect items, too many high att gear capes, gloves, shoes, is not because it's too easy to obtain WS and chaos. This is the case because there's "too many" people willing to put in the time and effort to make all that money and purchase the scrolls. And this is a good thing. So many people want to play and achieve their goals of having their own endgame gear, and there was (not is) the SUPPLY of WS and chaos to enable the players to achieve their goals. It is NOT too easy to make a perfect item. Taking about 21b in old source for a perfect weapon. That's months of gameplay, hours every day making the money to get there. I know that some people think the lower rate of WS and chaos is a good thing. It is not. To those of you who think that, do you know why Legends is bad? Amongst other things, it's because there are so few WS and chaos on Legends. Perfect items there are almost unheard of. The first was an earring completely scrolled with 30s. And people have BILLIONS that they can't spend to make their endgame gear. That's an unhealthy economy. People having so much money and not having things they want to spend that money on. And that's the direction that Royals is heading, with the lowered rate of WS and chaos from gach, the ones that do exist become more and more valuable. So prices go up, and it gets harder and harder for us players to obtain even a single scroll. When it was just fine to begin with. I do not believe WS and chaos prices will come down with merchants being reintroduced to the game. The issue isn't that people are waiting for merchants to sell their WS and chaos. The issue is that people don't have the WS and chaos to sell in the first place. Those that DO have WS and chaos can easily sell them to desperate overpaying buyers. There's tons of buyers paying over market price for these scrolls on smegas all day long. Having an NPC who will sell WS and chaos for 300m is a solution that I seriously advocate. Inflation for WS and chaos is not good, and yet it's continuing. Having an NPC to both buy and sell WS and chaos at 300m stabilizes their prices. This NPC will make WS and chaos perfectly liquid, and the perfect currency by which players will conduct above max meso trades. For that matter, the NPC would standardize WS and chaos valuations in those trades. What's important is that such an NPC would make WS and chaos freely available to all players who have put in the time and effort to make the money to purchase one. This prevents the Legends problem where people have the money but not the items to spend it on. The proposed NPC keeps Royals' economy healthy while also acting as a meso sink. Currently, WS and chaos only come from gach. The two most consumed items aren't even used as a meso sink, which I think is a flaw in game design if staff are concerned that there's too much meso in the server. So you see, currently, WS and chaos are generated into the server and given to a player through gach. The player then can sell these scrolls to other players for pure meso. Meso that has been generated into the server via mob drops and NPCing items is thus just moved from player to player and not actually removed from the server. But the NPC would fix this problem. Having the NPC sell WS and chaos to players removes the meso from the server, rather than the current situation where meso merely shifts hands. And furthermore, the NPC even acts as a meso sink when buying WS and chaos from players, applying the 6% or even higher tax rate on the 300m sale price. I know from experience that players have used merchants, setting up their shops and putting in stacks of arrows for 999,999 or lower each to evade higher tax rates. This was a popular method when selling WS and chaos to trusted friends, having them buy the arrows and then giving the scroll. I also used this method when doing these trades. The problem was that often, none of my friends were in the buying market for WS and chaos that I was trying to sell. So I'd sell to a random for the full price in one trade, getting hit with the 6% tax rate. But even then, I wasn't always able to find a buyer over smega when I needed to immediately liquidate some of my WS and chaos holdings. Making WS and chaos perfectly liquid is just healthier for the economy. It doesn't make sense to prevent a player who has the money in WS and chaos assets from being able to convert those assets into pure meso for buying things at a moment's notice. Enabling people to buy and sell these scrolls and conduct other trades without the stress of finding buyers and sellers for these scrolls is better game design. Continuing to put obstacles to free commerce doesn't make sense. The current system makes it harder for people to buy WS and chaos, makes it harder for people to make their endgame gear, makes it harder for people to do trades above max meso, makes it harder for people to hold meso on a character over the maximum pure meso limit, makes it harder to curb inflation because of insufficient meso sinks. You will fix all of this by implementing the NPC to buy and sell chaos and WS. So let's discuss why such an NPC might be a bad idea. I'm responding to staff who might think the ways that you proposed, not you yourself. 1. Dupe exploits affect all items. WS and chaos are and already were prime targets for duping. The NPC should have no more risk of duping than the FM NPC that sells smegas. This is to say that the risk of duping with an NPC introduction would be low, assuming that the scripting is similar to other buying and selling NPCs. 2. Nostalgia is subjective. Everyone defines it differently. To Matt and John, and especially Matt, I understand nostalgia is important to you in making server decisions. But please, please consider the merits of addressing the issue with WS and chaos prices. Leaving things as the way they are now isn't good. And I hope all my time and effort trying to explain why gets through to you. Actually no. It's harder to make meso now. The best way to make meso in terms of meso per hour was goby farming with SI. 80m per hour minimum, not even selling leech. More like 100m per hour with how overall int 60% scrolls dropped. This was how everyone at endgame level made meso when they were putting in all the hours of gameplay to get WS as quickly and efficiently as possible. Now with new source, SI doesn't work with Gen, so that brings us down to 65m per hour, and, for that matter, gobies' aggro is bugged so you literally can't farm there until it's fixed. The way everyone makes meso now is farming at ulu 2, which is about 45m per hour. The way to make meso in terms of most efficient farming, spawning meso into the game, has been cut in half. The reason why WS and chaos prices went up is because the rates of obtaining them went down. WS and chaos should've gone way down with all the supply flooding into the server from everyone gaching their months and months of NX from voting while Cash Shop was disabled. But it didn't. Because we just weren't getting WS and chaos at the same rates anymore. The idea of having another item to convert to and from pure meso was brought up before and summarily rejected by a member of staff, claiming that it was too easy to exploit. I don't remember what that thread was, but I do recall the idea was proposed in it. How is making WS and chaos easier to get bad? The amount of time and effort required to obtain them remains stable, and three hours of dedicated gameplay to obtain one sounds, at least to me, like significant effort to achieve things like godly equipment. So I'm curious why allowing people who put in the dedication to make the money and therefore buy the scrolls they want could be a bad thing. But doesn't an NPC for buying and selling WS and chaos do the same thing, making WS and chaos a stable and liquid asset for meso conversion? Probably easier said than done. Scripting an NPC would be far easier. The beauty of the NPC is that it is a meso sink. And it's a meso sink for the two most consumed items on the server. Buying WS and chaos from the NPC removes the meso from circulation while currently player to player transactions simply moves meso from one person to the other. It is a meso gain for people who gach WS and chaos, yes. But I, and I believe you and the vast majority of people, would say that demand for WS and chaos outstrip supply. So far more people would be purchasing WS and chaos from such an NPC than they could have or can now from the current supply from the playerbase. This means that the NPC would act far more as a meso sink than a meso gain. Because we both know how many WS and chaos we've used and wasted with our many failed scrolls and negative chaosing results. Even accumulating WS and chaos in old source took time and multiple smegas to find buyers. So I'm confident that the NPC would be used in bulk as a meso sink as we and others would purchase these scrolls immediately for our scrolling sessions, thereby expending our mesos on the NPC and removing the money out of circulation. And I know that you were the one to report several duple exploits back in old source. I'm not aware of how those dupes were done, but I think the potential for duping would be low if the skeleton of the NPC script was taken from other buying and selling NPCs. Of course, I may be wrong; I am not a coder. However, it does stand to reason that if buying and selling NPCs at current do not having duping exploits, a WS and chaos NPC scripted in the same fashion also would not. I venture to say that such scripting may even be quite simple, editing item IDs and meso values. The point is that the introduction of such an NPC should not introduce duping exploits in and of itself. Of course, other parts of the server may have duping exploits, but WS and chaos have always been targets for duping. The NPC wouldn't change anything in terms of WS and chaos getting duped in other exploitable areas of the game. I suppose I'm one of your elitist douches. Yes, these two scrolls do in fact determine the economy. Because endgame is about making perfect weapons and improving att gear. You need WS and chaos for this, and lots of them. To have a healthy economy where endgame gear is achievable, you need to have a healthy supply and demand of WS and chaos. Which means stable prices and liquidity in these two scrolls. There is a very good reason why WS and chaos should not be mob drops. Making perfect items and att gear should not be easier. It already had taken three hours of dedicated gameplay to get a WS or chaos. This is reasonable and attainable to anyone who works hard. Selling 1 hit skele/petri leech as a bishop or arch mage is something that anyone can do, provided they make their mage character and level and gear it up decently. WS and chaos and therefore the perfect items and att gear are indeed obtainable by anyone who is willing to work for them. Having these 300m+ scrolls drop from mobs is unnecessary. Windfalls are already in the server with gach, a standardized system by which anyone with an account gets a bit over 8 tickets a day with daily voting. There are also windfalls in godly drops and scrolling, so I don't see the reason why WS and chaos should be added to mob drop tables. Why is having WS and chaos a staple item for currency a bad thing? Why follow the GMS drop tables? To the latter question, it's my understanding that the whole point of feedback threads is to discuss the state of the server, Royals. It's irrelevant to pose an argument and premise it on subjective experience of an entirely different game like version such and such GMS. This isn't GMS. This is Royals. And I just can't see how arbitrarily following a certain version of GMS drop tables is anything other than bad game design for the sake of some view of what constitutes nostalgia. Sounds difficult to code, possibly requiring client edits. I don't think this is necessary providing that duping exploits do not get introduced with the introduction of the proposed NPC.
all of this could be solved if proper mobs dropped the items they are supposed to, i don't see how this makes the game broken, implementing an npc for the sake of swapping mesos for cs/ws is completely useless, however having mobs drop thier drop table is not, not everyone has things given to them, most players on here earn thier way by actually playing the game, and having these cs/ws as a staple for currency is a bad thing, you cant just have two items dictate a market, that can give players like yourself and everyone that has been playing this game since the beginning of time a monopolization of the market on big ticket endgame items, 30b+ for a 20 att shoe on a private server, get real >.>
"Not everyone has things given to them." Do you think I've had things given to me? Because I'm one of those players with billions and billions in gear. And I actually put in all those hours of gameplay to make them myself. So yes, most players on here earn their way by actually playing the game, myself included. The difference between you and I is how much and how we have spent our time on this game. I haven't been playing this game since the beginning of time, by the way. I joined in January 2016. So I've been playing actively for a year, have hardly played this year because new source took the fun out of it for me. Anyway, yes, us rich players monopolize the market on "big ticket endgame items." But that's because those items are expensive and we have the money to buy them. In no way does our being rich prevent you from also becoming rich. Whether you are rich or not depends on how dedicated you are to playing the game, how much time and how you spend that time here. Having billions is normal at endgame. Making 100m an hour farming gobies was easy, 20m more per hour for every summon skill class farming stoppers. Making anywhere from -100m to 1b from HT that you can run twice daily. Making -30m to 1b from Zak that you can run twice daily. Plus daily voting and gaching, with the occasional boom and mostly bust. So you see, anyone can do these things. We all started with nothing. It's just a question of who is going to put in all the effort? With that said, I have some questions since you didn't clarify: 1.Why is having WS and chaos as a staple currency a bad thing? 2. Why is implementing an NPC for the sake of swapping meso for WS and chaos "completely useless?" 3. "All of this could be solved if proper mobs dropped the items they are supposed to." What mobs should drop what items and how does this fix what problem? I don't believe you've read my post above, so I'm happy to repeat myself for the sake of discussion. That is, if you're willing to discuss of course.
I did, and I'm not going to repeat my self for the sake of discussion as its honestly looking towards like beating a dead horse and getting nowhere with it, all your questions have been answered as I have read it, and said what i wanted to say.
I actually read all you had to say and you just made claims without substantiating them. It doesn't have any merit to just say WS and chaos as a staple currency is a bad thing without explaining why, especially when I believe I've made an in depth explanation for why it's a good thing. It's unfortunate that you haven't and won't explain your reasoning, even after I tried asking questions to clarify. If you do at some point decide you do want to have a productive discussion, you're welcome to answer my questions and I'll respond to you in kind.
Chaos and white scrolls should only be from gachapon only then will the new fries feel the pain and torment of getting one from 400 tickets THEY NEED TO SUFFER ITS NOT ABOUT ACCESSIBILITY ANYMORE OLD SCHOOL, DIFFICULTY, SUFFERING, THATS HOW THE OLD MAPLESEETORY DID IT
1) why is having cs/ws as a staple currency a bad thing/all of this could be solved by mob tables having these items based on a form of currency by only obtaining them through gachapon was a money grab designed by nexon to get players to pay money to try and get these items as a pay to win aspect, we can vote for nx on here for free everyday, and we can obtain these items with a slim chance through gachapon, but having these only two items as a main form of currency is a bad thing due to stockpiling by players, alot of these old source players quit and took their gears, cs/ws stockpiles to their graves, and having them only obtained through gachapon is terrible, the main reason they brought these items to monster drop tables was to increase the amount of scrolls in circulation so players wouldn't have to pay to win and they could just play to obtain these items by a slim % chance from mobs, and it increased in amounts of better equips in circulation due to this change, and the players that payed to win wouldn't have a monopoly, having a small group of players in charge of a market is bad, reasons why most economies in this world outlawed companies from having monopolies as it was bad for the economy. having 1 mob out of the massive table that drops cs is worse, why even bother having any mobs drop it all, almost as bad as having white scrolls come from gachapon, when white scrolls weren't released till pink bean came out, we have no pink bean sadly and white scrolls would be nice to obtain from a mob other than gachapon, same with chaos. i hope this answers your questions for categories 1 and 3 2) why is implementing a npc for the sake of swapping meso for cs/ws completely useless this just seems like another meso sink idea, but it doesnt solve the problem of getting more scrolls/equips into circulation in forms of just buying them from an npc, of course having an easier way to obtain them is a good idea rather than relying on players gaching, having this would not change anything but would bring stability to the price of everything, but who is to say that in the future if the gm's in charge want to up the price because they feel they need to.
Just to add to discussion in case it's been forgotten, don't forget and underestimate the amount of NX that used to come into the game everyday through bossing. Bosses haven't been dropping NX through all of 2017. That coupled with more nx sinks(LF> Meso Cosmetic changes again ) are sure to effect prices in some way.
I don't have a super strong opinion on this & I wouldn't kick & cry if it went one way or the other but I feel like putting WS & CS into an NPC that allows you to buy them leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I would totally love them be obtained through other means that aren't gachapon & the random Lyka though, like some sort of points system with bossing with a shop that allows you to spend said points on them. It would make bossing more rewarding if you don't get anything & something to look forward to as you rack up the points. Also I think waiting for shops & owls to come back would be a smart move before trying some of the ideas in this thread. totally not a stolen idea from Extalia. /s
