Removal of FM Button - 8 months later

@Evan The game is cancerous. Admittedly mostly because of how management handles its relations with the playerbase, and the removal of the FM button is a part of that. I have put forth and explained my argument that removing the FM button contradicts the very essence of MapleStory: grinding and socializing. Your post doesn't counterargue either of these points. Your point is essentially that you think people are too lazy to go take the "mind shattering 10-30 seconds to use a scroll and get to the FM." Which is not the point all of us on the anti FM button removal side are saying.

It is not necesssary to take shortcuts by any means. It is, however, necessary to engage with the players and actually understand and discuss the points they bring up if in fact the feedback subforum is intended for feedback and management-playerbase conversation. The game is no longer fun to me personally, since I have long since become jaded that feedback threads enact any real change. But yes, I'm still here because I'm personally attached to the game and I think it is important to at least try and advocate for the Royals that the majority of the playerbase loved and longs for.

You're making a false equivalence fallacy. That's exactly what your exaggeration: "the game is a grind anyways, if walking to a map is so horrific, why not just remove the need to actually level" is. We are not arguing for the need to actually level. That's not remotely what people are saying. In fact, we are not even saying that walking to a map is so horrific. What we are saying is that the removal of the FM button is "horrific" for the following reasons:

1. The removal of the FM button discourages grinding.

2. The removal of the FM button discourages socializing.

As far as I can tell, you're saying the FM button cheapened the game for you because it saved us 10-30 seconds of walking to FM?

For me and probably most people, removing the FM button cheapens the game for us.

It virtually eliminates O4 and ToT in general as endgame grind spots. I don't think you know but there were quite a few people who would grind at O4 with their friends, as attackers, using buff mules from FM because that was the most viable way to grind together. So explain to me why you support removing the FM button and therefore discouraging attacker grinding. To those of who you are reading this, @Tommy, @Huff, since I've seen you two especially grinding at O4 with your friends, as attackers, consider replying to this thread and give your thoughts on whether or not and how you would grind your attackers now. I doubt I'm going to see a Tommy: "R>O4 duo" message in buddy chat now. And that's really unfortunate.

So you want to discourage people from easier commerce, by both hindering player-player trading and shop browsing. Why? Why make the economy harder to engage in? Sure I can understand the argument against FM buffing, even if it effectively kills the quintessential endgame grinding people used to engage in. But for what reason would you want to make it more cumbersome for people to participate in the economy..?

You say that having the FM button back for social occasions won't actually do anything, won't actually make people happy. After all the people who have voiced their disappointment about how much lonelier the game is without the FM button facilitating socialization, you just flat out don't believe them? If you look at all the people writing quite passionately lamenting at the deterioration of the game's social aspect, along with how many people like their posts, you really think that we have some insidious agenda that we're actually just wanting to save their 10-30 seconds of walking to FM?

But my most pressing questions are about people's two main points against the removal of the FM button.

1. Do you guys agree that the removal of the FM button discourages grinding and if not, why?
2. Do you guys agree that the removal of the FM button discourages socialization and if not, why?

To anyone who agrees with the removal of the FM button, answer just these two questions and I think we'll have a productive conversation.

 

@Shiyui To be fair I think Tommy grinded at O4 a couple of days ago with Ty. But then again they're not normal~

 

You can't push blame solely on "management", when players contribute a great amount of toxicity to the community.

fwiw, I don't think it hurt grinding at all, and I never said I was against the social aspect. I said people won't stop there. If it's implemented, they'll keep pushing till it's back to what it was in the old source.

Im glad you picked up on my... well it's not exactly reductio ad absurdum, but whatever.

 

I personally wish the FM button was never removed. The nostalgia I craved for MapleStory back in the day was dried up after the first month of playing on this private server. All of the nostalgic feelings vanished very quickly for me. I came for the nostalgia, but stayed for the convenience. If all you wanted was nostalgia out of this game, you would go play a 1x 1x 1x server where you can spend months living the nostalgia.

After having played on this server for over a year, most of the fun I have had with it was in the old source. My daily Royalling has changed drastically since new source came out. I Krex, I Zak, I sell leech, I AFK. I stay in places where I have easy access to the FM. The FM that is usually dead and can't just randomly join conversations that didn't include me at first. Before, you would see groups of people just chatting away, and even as an eves dropper they would enjoy you joining in. Now its just bland grind, with barely any interaction with people unless I knew them already. I don't enjoy the game enough right now to go out of my way to find people.

The FM button is convenient. It makes everything easier. It makes the game more enjoyable. If I didn't want either of those, I would go to a 1x 1x 1x server and melt my brain being lvl 1-30 for 3 months and feel as if I was making the slowest progress a video game has to offer. Sure we can live without the convenience. Do I want to? Hell no. I would love for this game to go back to how enjoyable it was. Be able to meet people without having to specifically go search for them. I enjoy meeting someone randomly. Going to find someone and force conversation just sucks. Don't even get me started on the numerous super megas i've seen just saying "LF friends buddy me!"

The best things in life may take time, but this isn't life. This is a video game. F2P without any chance at P2W. Now thats convenient.

 

I understand Matts desire to keep Royals as close to GMS like as possible. I respect Matt for what hes done with Royals. The longer I play Royals with the small time saving or QoL changes that have been made, the more I want them to stay, and this is coming from someone who can be at times super aggro about things being as close to as GMS as I remember. @Shiyui can vouch for some of the chats we've had about this before. Not all things done on GMS were right. And now that im older and some of the Rose tinted glasses have worn off, Ive become more aware of how asinine some of the stuff Nexon did was. Royals has made changes that I enjoy compared to how they had it in GMS. We have the ability here on Royals to make things better than GMS while keeping things nostalgic. Sure having the ability to quickly warp to FM isnt some kind of crazy revolutionary feature, but its nice to have it as it allows a higher socializing between players or being being able to afk in the relative saftey of the FM.

 

I'm aware, but no one in the thread seems to aknowledge that perhaps people were just spoiled with the button.

It always boils down to "The staff did X and X is bad" ( <--- that is why I said solely.), and that is what bugs me, additionally, no one in this thread can seem to come together on a single point, my original post was all about, hey if you guys want a way to socialize, cool. That's something that I think 100% of the game could get behind. But there's always a caveat of "...but we also want buff mules/trade", whether it's done through "Grinding is bad now", etc. Some want socializing, some want more, that is why i said what I said in my original post and seems to get skipped over a lot.

As you said, it ultimately comes down to Matt. If people are so bent out of shape over that, I implore people to look deeper than short term pleasure (wanting the button back) and try and think why Matt got rid of it in the first place. Input is good, but this doesn't feel like a feedback thread, it feels like a witch hunt aimed at anyone who doesn't agree with everything a couple people are saying. I'm not as against this idea as people think, I just don't think reverting to old source button is the ONLY solution, and I stand by that.

To further clarify.
I am all for the button being returned as a means for to people to socialize. I am against, in principle, it being used to house buff mules, to NPC, and to trade/maintain stores. Socializing should be encouraged, and so should actually leaving your grinding maps to do other business. If you put the time and effort to make buff mules, moving them to where you train is not the end of the world. Some people even leveled 131 HS mules for oblivion. People adapt, it's not always easy, but again, why should it be.

 

I'm replying to you @Evan, mainly because I feel the points that you've made really don't apply to how I feel and what I've put across. You may not be referring to me at all, in which case I apologise, but you haven't addressed anything I've said so far so its hard for me to tell

You can definitely argue that people were spoiled with the button and I'm sure lots of people wouldn't be butthurt if the FM button never existed. However, the fact of the matter is that it did and we can see what it was like before and after and therefore we our giving our opinion 8 months since it was implemented. For the record, I do personally think that the ease of buff mules in the FM seems rather overpowered and people rather took that for granted.

It seems kind of unrealistic to expect everyone to come together on everything they believe about this matter and people have made very similar points and agree with each other at least on some level?

Some people might be doing a lot of finger pointing in this thread and I in no way support that as its just not constructive in this sort of feedback. I personally may not be giving particularly constructive feedback but I am just detailing my own experiences with this matter and why I feel that the return of the FM button in some manner is to the benefit of the community.

Having been on staff at the time, I think I have a decent grasp on why Matt got rid of it in the first place. He urged us all to try it and give feedback later because he was convinced that it would be for the better. Some players may now agree with him and some are evidentally not. It's therefore our responsibility to give him feedback on our experiences on the matter and I really hope that they can be taken aboard and discussed within staff, before a conclusive reply that is representative of staff is given to us.

 

I find this point a little hard to understand. The way I understand the term "spoiled" is that it's something that should be avoided. This is because although the "spoiled" party may feel good in the short term, in the long term it will affect them negatively. I see how people using the old button felt better in the short term, but I don't see the long term negative effects. To me, it just seems like a feature that people liked and was removed. Are we "spoiled" with mounts? Teleport rocks?

I am someone who likes the idea of buffing and trade mules in FM, which I think I made clear in my initial post. However, I don't agree with the kind of "slippery slope" mentality being applied here. If the FM button were reinstated without the ability to use buff mules, and purely for the social aspect, I'd still enjoy it quite a bit more than I do today. The single point we've all touched on is the social aspect, which I'm glad to see you also support.

I have thought about Matt's motivations, which is why I created this thread outlining my point of view, and I'm glad that others have outlined their experiences as well. I'm trying to point out the ways the change has impacted my gameplay after some time, and I'm posing the question : Are these the intended effects?

I had to look up witch hunt to be sure, so here's the definition for those of you wondering: the searching out and deliberate harassment of those (such as political opponents) with unpopular views.
Reading through this thread, the vast majority of feedback is calmly stated, with nothing I can distinguish as harassment (with the possible exception of @Shiyui). I think using terms like witch hunt devalues the honest discussion we're having here.

I don't think anyone has advocated for the old source button being the only solution, so I'm glad we agree on this too.

 

I mean I've essentially been playing this game since it opened, and I really have no problem with the removal of the FM button. If you want to merch in FM, using a town scroll is easy enough. Walking back to whatever map you were initially in, even if this was Oblivion 5, is a cake walk. Takes a few minutes at most. If you dislike the travel time, use teleport rocks (when they are fixed), or be smart and plan things a bit so you don't have to tp back to town every 30 minutes. You're playing a private server with one of the lowest EXP rates around, and a few minutes of travel time is a hassle? Lol, no. If you want to socialize in FM for extended periods of time, the same reasoning applies as with merching. Otherwise, why not just use the party/buddy/guild chat instead? It's literally there for players in different parts of the world to be able to communicate.
I should note that I am, and have always been against the keeping of buffing-mules in FM. I think it's an unnecessarily lazy way to play in a server that is trying to provide a challenging (essentially time-consuming) experience, and I don't think it blends well with the gameplay experience that MapleRoyals advertises.

I think generally, if given the option most players would gladly vote in favor of things that might make the game less tedious, by calling them "QoL"-improvements, and I think it's potentially a slippery slope.

 

The thing about removing the FM button is that it has a bigger negative impact than a positive one. Also, if you compare it to making boat rides mandatory, which is something I don't agree with, there's a way around that: TP rocks. However, removing the FM button is removing the bad aspects about it but also every single positive aspect without giving something that can still give you back the good aspects of having the FM button.

We've mentioned the negative aspects that this change has had on our game experience. It has made the game worse for us. How has it improved the game for you or someone in favor of the removal of FM button? What's the positive impact on your game experience?

Was having the FM button impacting negatively your gameplay?

Edit: If you think about it. It's like when people complain about leeching or HP washing. Whenever someone makes a thread about that what do people say? Quote @Evan: "You don't have to leech". (Not true if you're HP washing btw). Even if someone doesnt agree with leeching they get told "you can choose to use it or not". Same could apply here. Imagine we had the FM button back. Do you HAVE to use it? No. You could walk to FM everytime if it's nostalgic to you.

 

Each self has your own point of view about the Pros and Cons of the FM Button, but is there something about it that affects EVERYBODY?

If you use it just to "easily" get to FM for a trade and go back to grinding, does it affect others in general?
If you use it for buffing mules, does it affect others in general?
If you use it to get away from grinding and afk, not having to walk back later, does it affect others in general?

Imo, the answer for those and all other topics is NO.
As others already said before, it's just convenience. Not something OP at all.
Without FM Warp, you've seen a new mule been created, Door Mules.

Retired Bishops been sitting at specified places (CWK, Skeles, Zakum, Krexel) just to sell DOOR SERVICE...
If you don't think that's a negative point from removing FM Warp, I couldn't name any other.

I've lost the chance to do some good trades, just because I was busy grinding or leeching someone in a place far from FM.
I have to leave chars at certain maps and log out, because it would be a pain to get back there after.

Someone mentioned before about "npcing stuff in seconds", but you have to remember that you can't sell anything at the FM NPC's

 

There are better things to spend the time on than walking back to maps just because you might want to get something from FM. That's my opinion.

 

Early on in new source, I was visiting obscure random maps like the middle of the eos tower for quests. The few buddies I had online would be chatting away in BL chat, but if someone asked for some help with something in the FM I had to weigh my choices - leave the map and take that trek all the way back? Even with eos tower scrolls, it's a pain in the ass. Or do I help the friend in need? Do I hope that someone else can help him and I can continue questing?

More than one time, I decided not to help, because the time and effort it took me to leave my map and go to FM and go back wasn't worth it. If someone wanted me to HS them, I have to go find where they're at and stick around, rather than just quickly logging in and finding what channel they're on. In return, I've also had much less help from people when I needed it - and that makes the gameplay much less fun.

The impact it has had already is clear, and TP rocks/once a day warping with family system won't make a difference.

Just my 2 cents for now.

 

How about the ability to use the FM button but limit accessibility of it to only town maps as to avoid the buff issue ?

 

Still wanna hear why buff mules is an issue

 

How's that any different than going to an FM entrance portal from a town map? most towns have one, or have easy access to one.

 

I don't know about the rest, but personally this would be plenty sufficient...

 

Tbh it's still early stages coz nothing is functioning as it should yet. We have no dojo (which is in nearly every town iirc) we have no HT PB scar/targa (I know for a fact you'll eventually put these in the game coz everything will get boring otherwise) we have no cwkpq nor do we have family tp or tp rocks. So this is giving us time to focus on other negatives. Let's wait until all those things are implemented and see if we are bored enough to notice how bad not having FM tp is.

The only aspect of FM port I miss is buying a a mega to recruit for grind or self buffing so I could grind. You guys really want me to buy leech huh? Is this what you want Matt?! HUH?!?! IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT?!?!?!

Btw fuck leech... can't beat 'em join 'em but still fuck how lazy it's made people become overall F3 -middle fingers up-

 

This.

Why let us have multiple alt accounts if buff mules were an issue?

Only difference without the fm button is that it makes the game tedious and inconvenient.