Discussion on Zakum's Weapon Cancel Mechanic

Hello all, today I mean to write a post discussing the Weapon Cancel mechanic with regards to Zakum, a current end-game boss that feels much more tedious with the release of new source. This post will be a short explanation and breakdown of the mechanic along with a comparison to other commonly fought comparable bosses with the same mechanic, of which there is currently only one; Krexel. To conclude, I will propose compromises and alternatives to the current system as well as my personal opinion on the situation. To provide some merit to my claims and information, I have done Krexel and Zakum twice daily for most days over the last few weeks, with the exception of the week I spent participating in the guild Thanksgiving event. Furthermore, I've done Zakum runs fairly consistently over the last few months, as well as heard and gathered feedback from a variety of different players. Any statements that compare or discuss old source Zakum come from the experience of hundreds of runs on 8 different classes through a number of different server stages. With that said, let's begin.

Zakum's weapon lock is currently at approximately a 40% uptime throughout the entire run. Through the first body, Zakum does not cast skills as often, however there is a fairly consistent alternation of weapon cancel and magic cancel with short delays in between that generally last around 20s, though can be longer. First body Zakum makes up 24% of Zakum's total body HP. When the fight progresses to second body, Zakum's attacks become far less relaxed, and he begins to fire off abilities with very little delay between them. This includes cancels of both types. Again, Zakum alternates them fairly consistently, however on this body there is often no more than a 15s span before another of the ability is cast. Zakum's second body is 1/3 of the entire body fight. Lastly, Zakum's third body rarely does anything but cast spells, often firing them so fast that a character is still in invincibility frames from the previous attack when the next one hits. This absolutely includes weapon and magic lock casts, which essentially do not have downtime on third body. Zakum's third body makes up 42% of the body fight, however due to the spam of weapon lock, the body feels and often physically takes 50% of the entire fight's duration or more.

Currently, Krexel has only one eye which casts weapon cancel - the first Krexel eye casts a weapon cancel that lasts approximately 5-10 seconds, and a magic cancel that lasts about the same. Cancels are often separated by half a minute or more before another cancel is casted, leading to weapon cancel mostly being an annoyance, but never a problem. The first Krexel eye tends to take about 15-20% longer than the second Krexel eye despite having the same HP, however it is important to keep in mind that the second Krexel eye has a spot in which most attackers can sit and not be knocked back, leading to less time devoted to positioning and more time spent attacking, so the difference in time is not entirely comprised of weapon cancel downtime.

To discuss, many players feel that Zakum's weapon cancel downtime is extremely excessive, however complaints about Krexel's weapon cancels are much fewer and further between than complaints, grumblings and gripes about Zakum. It's simply fact that Zakum's weapon cancels last significantly longer than Krexel's does, and as such is far more cumbersome. I can completely understand the logic that Zakum is a more worthwhile boss to fight, giving valuable skillbooks and end-game helmets for most classes, and as such should be more difficult than Krexel, however the simple response to this argument is that Zakum does far more than Krexel does already, between spam curses on the arms, skill seals throughout the fight and stuns that are currently unblockable with Holy Shield. Even if Zakum were to have no weapon cancels at all, it would still be far more difficult of a fight than Krexel is. It is entirely relevant to point out that the Hero, Paladin, Shadower and Buccaneer classes can avoid the entirety of the other skills that Zakum performs by tanking the body, making weapon cancels the only negative mechanic to these classes. Similarly, weapon cancels are the only limitation to Bowmaster and Corsair Rapid Fire DPS at Krexel due to the ability to completely avoid damage on the first eye.

Some propositions for alterations to the weapon cancel mechanic is either to shorten the duration of the weapon cancel to an appropriate length of no more than half the current value while leaving the cooldown on the skill at about a 1minute length that Zakum tends to conform to at the moment, which would essentially half the impact of weapon cancel, or otherwise to increase the cooldown on the skill significantly so that the 30s block is more randomized rather than consistently once per minute and some as it currently is. The former option of shortening the duration creates less time for players to clear summoned mob buildup, and thus puts more stress on decisionmaking - do I clear mobs or do I reset my buffs and position to resume DPS? - but also lessens the impact of the weapon cancel eating into short duration attack potions, as 15s out of a Heartstopper's 1minute length is not as notable as 30s. The latter is more relaxed in decisionmaking ability as it gives ample time to clear mobs while the bossfight is stalled, however it retains the frustration factor of a significant portion of short length attack potions lost.

Another interesting suggestion is to remove the weapon cancel entirely; this is my personal standpoint, as I feel that weapon cancels are simply poor game design. The idea of a weapon cancel is to force class balance between mages and non-mages so that a balanced party is never fully standing still, however the truth is that mages are not strong bossing characters, and while there are definitely some bossing mages out there, this speculative intended mechanic ends up being completely wasted on the vast majority of runs, as there are no mages attacking anyway, and the non-mages are simply forced to wait out the duration. Furthermore, there is no counterplay to the weapon cancel. Zakum's third body does spawn monsters which can be cleared during weapon cancels, as was touched upon in the previous paragraph, however there is no method of avoiding the weapon cancel with skill, timing or planning, as is the case with seals (timing Holy Shield) or stuns (moving away from the pillar markers). When Zakum casts a weapon cancel, it is a 30s pause in the boss fight whether you like it or not, and I simply find this to be tedious and unrewarding of a mechanic. I can fully understand the logic of weapon cancels being a part of the game and do not expect this to be a popular stance, however I think weapon cancel as a mechanic has no place in pre-bb Maplestory.

As always, I would very much like to hear if there are any other opinions for solving the frustration over the current Zakum weapon cancel mechanics. If you have a suggestion or want to dispute points in an attempt to come to a more appropriate conclusion, feel free to post informed discussion below so as to promote meaningful discussion on the topic. I hope that together, we can all come to a conclusion that results in a less frustrating boss fight that feels like something we want to do rather than have to do for money/experience.

Thanks for reading.

 

I have another idea, although I don't know how conventional it is, or if it's even feasible.
Have Crusader's Armor Crash have a % chance to cancel out the Weapon Cancel.

If this can't be, or shouldn't be, done, then I'd say shorten the duration of the Weapon Cancel ability.

 

Just for clarification, what about new source makes it feel more tedious? I'd assume it's because Horntail is missing, so people are forced to Zakum.

One thing I found is that halfing the duration of the weapon cancel doesn't exactly half the impact of the weapon cancel.

Spoiler: example

30s cancels: 30s weapon cancel --> 60s expected cooldown
Weapon cancel is active 33.3% of the time

15s cancels: 15s weapon cancel --> 60s expected cooldown
Weapon cancel is active 20% of the time.

Additionally, magic cancels would probably also change from 30s to 15s. So, the expected cooldown between weapon cancels would decrease too.

This doesn't really matter at this point but it's just a detail I thought I should point out.

Is this true?

Idk how it's coded but I thought everything is a probability. Every spell Zakum casts (seal, 1HP attack, stun, weapon cancel, magic cancel) has a different probability. So, lowering the probability of Zakum using cancels would increase the expected cooldown (or time interval) between weapon cancels. Is there actually some kind of minimum cooldown or static cooldown coded?

For the shorter duration of cancels option, I'm not sure if you think putting stress on decision making is good or bad. I come from Moba games and have read several years of patch notes and they usually advocate game design changes that reward smart players. So, I think this would actually be a positive aspect?

For the longer cooldown between cancels option, I think players will get frustrated sometimes no matter what especially if they have bad luck in a run. But, I think this option is just easier for players lol. Having longer duration but less frequent cancels lets players chill out a bit, clear mobs, buff, maybe chat or whatever they want.

My personal opinion is that the first option is better from a gamer standpoint, but the second option is better from a "i want to watch netflix + multiclient farm stoppers" standpoint. To be honest I don't really care, but I would pick the second option because it'd make Zakum runs easier for me.

I agree that weapon cancel is a bad game mechanic. It literally just makes the boss take more time. It's tedious without offering any kind of increased difficulty or counterplay. But anyway, can you explain what you meant about weapon cancel and magic cancel forcing class balance? I think mages and non-mages are equally affected by weapon cancels, so there is no advantage of a mixed party.

Example, let's say weapon cancel has an expected uptime of 40% of the boss run. Then, magic cancel has the same expected uptime of 40%. If mages and non-mages DPS continously, then both receive the same 40% reduction in damage down throughout the entire boss.

The point I'm making is that I can't see the advantage of having a mixed party, other than that for the arbitrary enjoyment of having no time where everyone is standing still.

 

As of new source release, it appears all of Zakum's mob skill were changed in some way, which has resulted in more weapon cancels than old source. I'm not entirely sure if there's a different logic being how mob skills are used or if it's different cooldowns/usage windows, but it's generally observed, both in my opinion and the opinions of others, that there is a notable difference between old source and now. I didn't make this clear in the initial post - I apologize.

I'm not entirely sure how what you've just said doesn't agree with my statement. You've mathematically shown me that there is lower activity of the skills if the durations are shorter without change to the cooldown. As it stands, the weapon cancel lasts 30s and then some randomness applies - as I said in my post, it's fairly consistent that a magic cancel follows every weapon cancel, however it's not currently fully reliable, and back to back weapon/magic cancels do happen. This does seem to imply that there is either no cooldown or a very short one - if the skill can be cast immediately after the effect wearing off, then it is entirely possible, though not probable, to never have a magic cancel, and only weapon cancels for an entire run, or vice versa.

To clarify, by randomness I simply meant that the boss becomes less rigidly weaponcancel>magiccancel>weaponcancel>magiccancel>ad nauseum. Having actual spacing between each cast of the skill by the boss makes things less alternating and predictable, though realistically, I would assume that there is some kind of minimum cooldown or static cooldown. I do not know the answer to your question though - hopefully someone from the development side can shed some light on the topic.

I attempt to stay impartial when presenting potential options - the fact that you don't know what I think about it is good. I want you and everyone else reading to formulate your own opinion on what is good or bad so that you can choose for yourself what you want. My goal was to present information based on a problem that I believe exists, and present potential manners of addressing that problem. I am one vote and only one vote.

Thanks for your input - I think that that's an interesting way to put it!

You are right - it doesn't promote any actual balance because, assuming RNG works out to be average each time, every class is affected equally. I meant instead to say that it balances the classes in that neither mages nor nonmages are completely free to attack this boss - there is no bias towards what type of damage you deal, as there is at the Castellan Toad, for example, who only casts magic cancels. In hindsight, writing anything on this particular subtopic is irrelevant, as I would wholeheartedly support keeping the ratio of weapon to magic cancels exactly as it is, and so speaking of them as different skills should only have been done insofar as ensuring it is understood that they are two different skills and do not share logic or casting cooldowns or any of the sort. At least, not to my knowledge.

 

I don't really see an issue with wep cancel. Sure it can be annoying when it is spammed but it has always been there and isn't something I would consider game breaking.

Sometimes you get lucky and only deal with a few and sometimes you get perm wep cancelled near death of the 3rd body.

Just something we got to deal with.

 

+1 on this, not only crusader's one, but all 3 classes debuffs.
The way they work right now is useless, it should work on bosses in general.

 

I found Weapon cancels beneficial in the way they boost some underrated classes like Shadowers and Marksman with their DPS capability in boss runs. We all know both classes are relatively underrated and hardly demanded in boss runs. However, thanks to weapon cancels, they can either drop tons of mesos or deal consistent 199k dmg while other "high-dps rated classes" sit back and watch netflix. For Paladin.......hope they add something cough.

I didn't see much problem with current weapon cancel mechanic. The longer or more frequent the weapon cancels, more beneficial it is for aforementioned classes. Maybe it's because I like everything to be more challenging and strive to deviate from the comfort zone. If I had to suggest anything, I'd suggest to make things more challenging but never go easier.

 

Marksman's snipe hits throught the weapon cancel?
When I went to zakum it only did 1 as the other skills.
Unless it was a visual glitch

 

IMO weapon and magic cancels are as useless as 1/1 attacks (which do nothing for the difficulty of the boss as there's no seduce to kill you).

I would not be sad to see all of it removed :x

 

I tested with a Marksman guildie, it does have a visual glitch which shows only 1 dmg but one can observe the HP bar actually moving with every snipe (where actual 1dmg would never be enough to move the bar).

 

Good to know.
My Snipe isn't high enough to be that effective, so I didn't notice it.

 

I support any change that would reduce(or eliminate) the impact of wep cancels. It definitely feels much more spammy than it did in old source, with many of my friends currently avoiding zak as much as possible due to this.

 

The problem I have with your post is that it's not really a matter of luck at the moment. It's actually lucky to not see a consistent alternation between the two cancels with little time in between. I would consider myself extremely lucky to see three magic cancels in a row, or otherwise extremely unlucky to see three weapon cancels in a row. The way current weapon cancel works is pretty much a flat increase in the time it takes to kill Zakum because it's fairly consistently a 40-45% uptime on weapon cancel over the course of the fight. That is my issue, and the core reason that I posted this thread - it serves no purpose except to extend the fight with no counterplay at all, and it almost doubles the length of the fight with how often it's cast.

Sparky's point of being slightly balancing for Shadowers and Marksmen is a positive point in favor of keeping weapon cancels - I do believe that Snipe should not hit through weapon cancel, though, I think that that's a glitch, and furthermore Shadowers already have the highest theoretical 1v1 damage via dropping+Assassinate on Zakum anyway because it is a boss that is bombable. While I understand his point, I personally disagree with it being a good reason to keep weapon cancels in the game, current form or nerfed.

 

The Weapon Cancel mechanic was just one of the many devices added to the game to artificially inflate the length of time it took to do things. It adds next to no real difficulty to a boss other than taking longer to kill and there potentially being a risk of someone dcing or something like that. Otherwise its just there to make you spend more time killing it. This isnt intuitive game play. This isnt exciting and revolutionary. Its a boring AF mechanic and I've always hated it. I dont mind it existing on something like Horntail, because its our end game boss. And it doesnt punish a party as bad since theres so many different targets for a group to focus on when you're killing.

 

Personally I could do without the mechanic at all. It literally doesn't add anything to boss fights other than time. Time that is a hard thing to come by for me these days. I don't think I've moved my character out of the FM in about 3 weeks now except for a few Krex rounds. If there was a way to remove the buff from the boss with a skill, I would say it has its purpose, but its literally just a thing to make the boss fights last longer.

 

I think this is the best way to do it, Saders have a lot of spare skill points, and Dark Knights/Pallys could benefit from the extra utility of Power/Magic Crash. Unsure if there are any client limitations though. Apparently Threaten cannot be implemented with percentages

 

I do see the point you are trying to make. It does not make Zak any more difficult and just extends the time, increasing the possibility of someone slipping up while potting or lagging and dying by mistake.

What I meant is the weapon cancel has always been there so I never thought of it as something to be removed, increasing cooldown on it would be wise though. Likewise, I would not care if it were removed either. It seems really simple to do but with the amount of things that still need to be programmed on this server I don't know what the priority for something like this would be.

 

As we are currently 65-19 in favor of a change being made, would it be possible to hear a staff perspective on the issue, as we are now approaching two weeks into this thread without a response and I very much feel that my thought out feedback and the discussion following it has been completely ignored.

 

In light of Horntail being released, another question is raised; I was told, during the internal discussion you referenced which occurred last, that fixes to Horntail skills in efforts to release that boss may affect the system for which bosses use skills, and as such, Zakum’s skill overuse issues may be altered through the release of Horntail. Can you confirm or deny that Zakum has not been altered with the most recent patch, as I would like to keep the data in the first post as up to date as possible.

It seems like you barely post until I ask you to directly - while off topic, I feel like this needs to be said. I have the feedback that any response from you or the admin team all is constructive, even if it is “we’re working on other things and will discuss this later.” The players need to hear from you. Not answering isn’t really conducive to player-staff relations, and it makes us feel almost as ignored and irrelevant as I felt back then. Don’t mistreat your server. We’re people, not numbers.