Currently, skeles leech is in a very awkward position: Efficient skeles split leech gives around 26M exp per hour, but efficient petri split leech gives around 31M exp per hour. That's almost a 20% difference. Efficient skeles SOLO leech gives same exp per hour (31M) as efficient petri SPLIT leech. (Disclaimer: EXP numbers above are rough estimates and could vary with seller and buyer levels) As a result, high-level Bishops are also in a very awkward position when it comes to grinding and leech selling. Currently (02/22/2018) it is not hard for Arch Mages to sell petri split at 65M per hour, but it is almost impossible for Bishops to sell skeles split leech even at 50M per hour. Those Bishops don't have the option to roll back to ULU2 leech selling. There is an over-abundance of Arch Mages who can 1-hit ULU2 at LV130, giving more EXP to buyers due to their lower level. They also cannot sell petri leech, because it requires 1590-1610 magic with gen30 to 1-hit petri, which is out-of-reach for most players. Looking back, things have not always been like this. I didn't experience old source myself since I started in new source, but many old source players told me that skeles leech used to be almost as good as petri. Same goes for v062 GMS, when skeles was a premium training / leeching location. Edit: it seems this is an unintentional nerf due to the v062 to v083 client update: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/why-was-skeles-nerfed.89265/ Some people might question "isn't it fair that Arch Mages can leech better than Bishops, since they don't have good bossing capabilities?". Here is my response to that argument: Spoiler: Response to 'AM better leeching to compensate bossing' Even if skeles is as good as petri, Arch Mages still have plenty of leeching and grinding advantages over Bishops: 1-hitting ULU2 requires around 985 magic with blizzard or meteor 20, but 1246 magic with gen20. As a result, Arch Mages can 1-hit ULU2 with little funding at LV130, while Bishops need 8+ billions of gears to 1-hit ULU2 at LV160. 1-hitting petrifighters requires around 1197 magic with meteor 30, or 1222 magic with blizzard 30. 1-hitting skeles requires around 1295 magic with gen30. So Arch Mages win here as well. Arch Mages have elemental advantages over certain mobs in Temple of Time. Some of them give good drops like earring INT 10%, others have the highest EXP among all grinding mobs in game. In contrast, Bishops have no hope whatsoever to 1-hit those mobs. Meteor 20 and Blizzard 20 books are 20M at most. Genesis 20 prices cycles between 800M and 1.5B over time. For now, meteor 30 is around 100M, blizzard 30 is around 500M, but genesis 30 is 1.2B. Moreover, Arch Mages may not be as bad at bossing as people think. As hypothesized by some veteran players (e.g. @Martin ), in multi-target bosses like Zak or HT, well-geared Arch Mages have the potential deal as much total damage as 8000 range night lords. In conclusion, I propose to restore the spawn of skeles, so that skeles leeching almost as good as petri (maybe a tiny bit worse). Reasons for this change include: This is not a buff. This is a reverse of a previous unintentional nerf. This reverse would allow many Bishop players to enjoy the class again, instead of only using it as a mule for heal / HS / resurrection / echo. Even with this reverse, Arch Mages still have plenty of grinding advantages over Bishops. Moreover, Arch Mages have decent bossing potential too, which is currently under-utilized. Edit: With this change, supply of dragon scales and spirit (essential for dragon weapon crafting) will be back to normal. Thanks @resum for pointing this out!
The only thing Arch Mages have over Bishop's is damage. The convenience and support skill of dispel, heal, resurrection, holy symbol, door, holy shield should be a good enough trade vs extra damage.
Not sure why you posted that, since none of the changes I proposed would change the damage of Bishops or Arch Mages. But let's talk about the importance of these conveniences anyway: The convenience of dispel and holy shield can be obtained with allcure potions (400 meso each from NPC). The convenience of holy symbol and door can be obtained by making a LV81 HS mule. So the only real conveniences Bishops have are heal and resurrection. In my opinion, heal and resurrection are definitely not enough to compensate the serious disadvantages high-level Bishops are current at, in terms of grinding and leeching. And as a result, more and more Bishop players are not actively playing the class, and only use Bishops as mules for grinding / bossing. This is definitely not healthy.
This argument has been address in my original post, inside the spoiler "Response to 'AM better leeching to compensate bossing'". Please let me know what you think about it
Because better damage or better spawn to put Bishop skele leech on par with Arch mage leech will suddnely put arch mages behind on their only specialty. -The convenience of dispel and holy shield is what a lot of people ask for during bosses, thus a useful support convenience skill -the convenience of holy symbol comes from the Bishop line not the Archmage line so an entire class is being made for 1 skill, because the skill that class owns is that incredible. And a level 81 mule lacks support skills that can be obtained by becoming a Bishop. -Heal and Resurrection are leagues beyond dispel and slow. The one thing Arch mage's have is more damage over Bishop's for better farming, and to obtain that better damage and match Genesis speed they need booster and require more mp every ultimate. People also sleep on the 2nd job skill Invincible that makes Bishop's even more tanky than the mages.
My max exp rate training at skeles now is only about 85% of what I was able to get in old source. It's really just restoring skeles to what they used to be: Slighlty less exp compared to petrifighters while still actually being decent. Why is this becoming a bishop vs archmage comparison? lol
i think a lot of it is groupthink from leech buyers. they heard that petris was faster so they only wanna buy that, ignoring that skeles is cheaper. I've seen people try to see Skeles at 100/50 at no avail while Petris leechers sell at 140/70 easily. Using your rates, the person buying skele leech gets more exp for their meso.
I think so too about groupthink. Once me and a bishop tried to sell duo 2 hit leech at petris for just 20 or 30m to a solo buyer. We think the exp is really good and maybe also same as 1hit petris split. But nobody wants even though it's so cheap. Not sure why..
I wouldn't mind having Skeles's spawn rate increased but if it is I'd hope that ToT's would be too. You talk about Arch Mages having better grinding places, which is true for I/Ls at least with Oblivion, but with Road of Regrets's current spawn rate makes it that Petris still beats it. If Skeles is made to be equal to Petris, grinding wise there wouldn't really be a difference for Bishop vs F/P except that 1 hit Skeles takes about 90 more magic which I don't think its that much. *The main problem here would be RoR's spawn rate, but since it doesn't make sense to just increase it in one map and not the others, I think a overall ToT spawn rate increase should be a good idea. Would help out any other classes that are grinding there or doing the quests too.
Nothing I miss more than holding Skele maps for hours prior to 2x events, having to earn respect (through damage/reputation/guild) to avoid being KS'd for said map, and KS wars to defend your map from the foreigners (usually Peruvian back in the day on gMS) with no etiquette or reputation to lose. As bad as it sounds on paper, those were the best times by far. Make Skeles great again, make KSing a thing again, and make EXP events a thing again too. Truly gMS like >>>>>>
tbh, you underestimated the efficiency in Petri very much. For those who don't telecast, it's quite the same as what you mentioned: 31 m exp/hr. But for those who can telecast: 1. Arch mages: it's estimated about 45 m exp/hr from a solo leech (I can do 38 m exp/hr in duo leech by using a lv160 mage. But, I haven't seen such a good mage who can do much more than this standard.) 2. Bishop (who spam gene 13% faster than mages do): it's estimated about 60 m exp/hr cuz I have recorded 48 m exp/hr in a duo leech. The most important difference between Skele and Petri is the amount of the mobs. You can only do little better if you telecast in Skele cuz there are few mobs in the ground floor. For those Bishops who can do 1-hit petri, the efficiency will be better than Mages'. More exp for higher fee, I think it's acceptable.
That will be great. Lots of ppl said they are pro leecher. But, they didn't say that they are uneffective.
man I just want to mentioned that goby is good in old source as well where I always stay farming beside skele map, but in new source they're totally changed, where else can a lv200 bishop stay for good income? maybe I have to quit my nl to fund my bishop to 1600 magic attack to 1 shot petri.
