Suggestion: Remove Evan as moderator

A forum moderator should prevent people from inciting flame, not be an active contributor.

Dismissing someone's ideas by comparing them to a child wanting ice cream is completely unprofessional.
It adds no contribution to a discussion and encourages angry dialogue between people.

Staff members shouldn't be criticized for giving their opinions or when they tell other people their opinions are flawed but they should word their responses in a way that doesn't actively insult people.

 

My metaphor wasn't calling Jae a kid.

It was simply using a real life example of how "Just because the majority wants something doesn't mean they should get it". Hense why I said he shouldn't take it personally that his thread, "the most viewed on the forum" didn't lead to an implemented change.

Not that anyone cares, I don't necessarily disagree with Jae's thread or topic, I just think it should be implemented with limitations.

 

That's the point though. In practice, many situations are complicated and influenced by many factors, and people typically don't think about them thoroughly while voting in a forum poll.


Evan might have done a lot of work in the background that very few people know about, let alone giving him credit for.

The "child wanting ice-cream" comment was pretty bad, but he might not actually mean it, and it was just poor proofreading. It may be harder than people think to proofread everything you write, and give others no weapon to use against you.

Also keep in mind that everyone other than Karven is working for free. They don't get a penny.

These are the things that don't come across many people's minds when they vote in a poll.

 

These types of things should not be said in discussions at all, especially from an authority figure. You don't agree, simply state in a clear way that doesn't have metaphors or similes. Comparing one thing to another thing that has no connection AT ALL is not smart. Especially when you compare it to trivial things like children being selfish. Because while what you said can be interpreted differently, the overall point is that not everyone gets what they want just because they think its a good idea. You can say what you said 101 ways differently, but you chose to say in a form that could be seen as passive aggressive.

Why is the colorful language needed. Just say something like

"While you might think this is a good idea, it doesn't fit into what the server administration currently has in plan. However, if you make a strong enough argument it could merit consideration"

And if you on a personal level don't agree, just say you don't agree and why. But don't take someone else's argument or opinion and just discard it like it holds no value.

Why shut it down and be offensive at the same time? People in authority positions should know how to talk to people who are under them.

 

This. I think the biggest challenge in being a staff is that you have to be able to blot out your inner voice and respond in a professional and unbiased manner. The days of commenting as a player is over the moment you commit to a staff's position, there shouldn't be any long winded to-and-fros, only a clear cut response, if misunderstandings were made, so be it, release a formal statement and move on asap. It's not a competition and there're no sides to this. Voted no because it is unnecessary and pointless over a small issue lol

 

While Evan has had his share of curt replies, I choose to believe he's a decent guy seeing how he tried to fight for our benefits behind the scenes (https://royals.ms/forum/threads/about-a-forum-ban-and-moderation.118664/#post-670189). It's a game and we all need to loosen up a little.

That being said i really like how the current topics are stirring lots of discussion. I've never really agreed with the staff decisions regarding the server and it pains me to see it being killed slowly. The community is the greatest asset of this server and not listening to the collective voice is just suicide.

Like Shiyui mentioned in the linked thread, the players have their grievances toward certain members of staff. At the risk of sounding overly political, would it not be better to alter the way Staff are selected? (I came across a screenshot of a staff discord conversation - can't remember who or where in the forums i saw it - where it seemed like someone was selected without too much consideration. Could there be a scheme in which members of staff need to be elected, serve a certain duration, and stand for re-elections at regular intervals? Not saying this is a great plan but just want to throw it out there. Perhaps there could be some discussion on regarding the selection of staff. The only interest i have in this is as a player.

 

I know Jae fairly well, and I can honestly say the same about him. He's blunt and he can sometimes be tactless, but whenever it comes to server issues, he's just providing feedback. I personally believe Evan wants what he feels is best for the server, too, despite his bluntness. And that's also how I feel about Jae. The issue lies where you draw the line between Evan and Jae, the latter of whom is banned.

The only time Jae gets frustrated is when his suggestions are either ignored or not refuted in a healthy way (ie. substituting anecdotal evidence and personal feelings for fact and/or providing no logical explanation). I think he has every right to be frustrated when his opinions, which are often well thought out, are compared to the petulancy and shortsightedness of children. If you actually want to use children as a metaphor, I believe Evan and other staff sees Jae as a child who doesn't know any better; only superficially looking at the bluntness in his wording without looking at the actual issues he's pointing out. If people believe Evan's cold-blooded replies are not fairly looked at as constructive while pointing out server issues, whose to say Jae's isn't? Even if you only look at this AP reset issue that he's brought up, he's not upset that you disagree with his proposed solution, he's upset that no other solution has been provided, and the only official response is a complete and utter dismissal of the issue that he's suggested. To that end, his frustration comes out in the same "cold-blooded" bluntness that you seem to be acquitting Evan of, and, of course, as someone who isn't a Moderator on this forum, he should be given even more leeway than you all are giving Evan; yet, Jae is the one who's banned.

I personally don't think Evan should be removed as a Forum Moderator (nor should the position of Forum Moderator be removed) as he should be given a chance to improve on his replies which could be misinterpreted. However, a forum mod should be held to higher standards (since they represent the server), and if this much leeway is being given on someone of a higher position, the same fairness should be given to a player, no matter who it is while being relatively unbiased.

 

I disagree that Evan (or any other staff member) should be expected to sanitize their posts to be "professional," assuming they're not posting in the capacity of a staff member at the time. Staff are still players; they still have the same kinds of concerns, opinions, and personalities as other players. As long as they discharge their professional duties appropriately, their other posts and in game interactions should be considered "off duty."

You wouldn't approach a staff's legit character in game and expect them to drop what they're doing and rewarp you to Zakum, would you?

 

It baffles me how this subject can keep popping up and Evan does nothing to change his behaviour. I have heard multiple staff members say that they talked to Evan about his approach towards the community but so far he have not changed one bit, so maybe the staff is taking the wrong approach on helping Evan not sounding like a D-bag.

In the past i made my own version of this thread https://royals.ms/forum/threads/forum-mods.104070/ and so far i have seen no change in Evan's attitude and in my opinion it is obvious that somethings needs to be changed and maybe that something is not just giving Evan a slap on the wrist and telling him things like "perhaps I enjoy watching people squirm at slight inconveniences." is a very unprofessional thing to write as a response.

 

In a section specifically meant for players to post suggestions and feedback about the server I think staff members should definitely post professionally, or at the very least not have posts be so borderline rude that it starts a commotion. If the individuals chosen to represent the staff team don't at least feign professionalism in serious sections of the forum then what kind of message does that send to the player base?

You'd be surprised at how common this is

 

I'm sorry but I just want to correct your statement. No one here is under anyone. We all in same position. If you have a title like "Administration" or "4rum moderator" next to your name, that doesn't mean you are any higher than other people. As they are (Admin or ...) just a position to help other people in the community.
I hate it when anyone look down on other people because they have more ability than other people.

 

A recurring theme seems to be about the staff members and them acting in the capacity of a member of staff vs that of a casual player.

Regarding forum replies i totally agree that they should act with a consistent level of professionalism expected of anyone holding a position.

In-game, i don't see what's wrong with asking gms on their normal character for rewarps. If the rewarps are warranted, shouldn't the gms try and resolve it first? I might get the rewarping issue out of context, but reading the recent forum posts about refunding the event ring, it's clear that people have been trying to reach out to gms for days without getting any response despite forum and in-game megaphones. It's clear that staff don't do this full time but that doesn't mean that these small but cumulative issues should be left to fester. Perhaps recruiting more, or replacing those who are more busy now would alleviate some of the issues?

 

Alright what the hell is wrong with you people. I've been here long enough and I can say with confidence that A LOT OF Royals players are a bunch of over sensitive people acting like kids in adult bodies.

Yes this is a flame so give me that warning points if I deserve them.

Holy shit people.

 

General observation that the staffers here are constantly badgered with nonsense by we peasants and aren’t celebrated for their sacrifices, dedication & presence nearly enough.

Dilly dilly, staff. Dilly dilly.

 

I'm sure working as a moderator isn't as easy task as everyone thinks, being one is kind of a job where several admins have to maintain strictness yet friendliness.
Someone had to be the bad guy, but i'm sure all moderators, GMs, love this community that they built, played, and growned together with.

Voted no, i'm sorry.

 

It's funny you mention that. I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who served as a GM on two MMORPG servers. That's precisely what makes me say that staff members should be allowed the right to behave as players when not specifically functioning as staff, even when it comes to suggestions and feedback. Because, fundamentally, they're carrying out staff functions purely for the love of the game. There are no palpable rewards, and very few pats on the back; staff are just players who are more qualified and willing to take care of business than everyone else.

 

I hoped i'd never have to ever make such a blunt post like this, but i have attempted to help, both from inside and outside staff, to no avail and its honestly getting to a point where i don't even care anymore.
To be completely honest, i don't think Evan is fit to be a staff member. Not because of his moderation (though there's room for improvement), but rather because, imo, he says way too many things without the knowledge or experience to back it up and things that are imo unnecessary, unprofessional or just stupid. (also the fact that I and others have gotten the vibe that he holds somewhat of a grudge towards higher leveled players). Not only on forums, but also during my time in staff chat, I and others felt that he would too often get involved in various gameplay related discussions despite his obvious lack of knowledge and experience. Evan isn't the only one guilty of this either... As an example, considering his highest character is a 14x-15x paladin, it's clear he would have no experience from fighting Horntail, yet he would constantly argue as if he knew the ins and outs of a boss he to my knowledge has never even attended. There was also a time when I brought up a change to mage skills i thought was incredibly stupid, being a mage main myself, to which he borderline tried to school me on how arch mages work(...) despite me having played every mage class to 200 and him having little to no experience with the classes. Back on the topic of forum posts, it's in threads like this i feel like Evan is saying way too much when it's clear he lacks the proper knowledge to properly respond, and honestly isn't really in the position to either. It's clear by looking at the amount of player outrage. Evan is not in staff to handle the community after a poor change is made, that should be left to the people who actually made those decisions. He is simply here to moderate the forums. That doesn't mean he can just act however he likes though, as all of his actions still represent staff as a whole, and whenever he writes something stupid, it does lower the public image of staff, which should ideally be kept at its highest. That is more or less why I say Evan is not fit to be a staff member.

Spoiler

Once again Evan isn't the only staff member i think makes stupid, unnecessary or unprofessional posts. This post from Kai for example is one i find to be both unprofessional and unnecessary. I might be nitpicky here, but this post is a passive aggressive post towards players made in a thread that is supposed to have a calm, funny vibe. I reported this post in an attempt to have it quietly removed for this very reason, and linked my previous feedback post, where the bottom paragraph is about this very topic, in my report as a genuine attempt to help staff better themselves, but i guess it was just pushed aside as "wow Martin is whining again" considering it's still up... And I know how easily posts from previous staff members get posted in staff chat so you guys can all talk about how "stupid" we are, I've seen it happen.

Do I think Evan should be removed from staff? Not necessarily, but I strongly believe he (and some others) need to better themselves and think twice before saying things on forums, and to learn when to refrain from making posts they shouldn't make, if they do wish to stay. There is a good reason many people don't like Evan, and the things i have mentioned in this post certainly do play a significant role in that. If you reading this think Evan or any of the other people I've mentioned in this thread are innocent and have done nothing wrong, and its just us players that are stupid for disliking them, then i suggest you take a look at the bottom paragraph in this post.
Have a nice day

 

-sigh-

I bolded 2 parts I'll respond to..

I haven't Horntailed here, but if you had asked me, I would have told you that, I never once said I know more about HT here than you do. I did however manage a horntail running guild on GMS for years. And, I don't need to run HT every day to know that in an attempt to help paladins, giving heroes the armour crash as well would undermine any benefit to bossing we were trying to give to pallys, but that's a different argument entirely. I was not the only staff member to hold this view.

The second, You wanted a multi target skill (chain lightning) to hit multiple targets, but do the same base damage as paralyze, a single target skill. You're only argument was "no one uses it for multitarget".... so when I said a half dozen times, if we removed CL ability to hit more than one I'd be behind it 100%, and you didn't like that or never responded to it. Am I really so far off base in thinking that multi-target skills shouldn't hit more than single target skills in the same breathe in terms of skills? (Power strike, slash blast. The 2 DrK skills. etc). THe thread you linked about rage was a literal rebuttal to the statement that heros have no party skills (which qualitatively is true, but categorically wrong.)

Now, I don't have an issue with people who are high level... I have an issue with high levels who think they know things better because they have a level 200...I have an issue with elitism. Having something, especially in the context of the server here, doesn't mean you're an authority... and while you do know a lot, I disagreed with you on things, and that is okay. When you left staff, I reached out and you ignored me, for a bit. I asked you, concerned, if you left because of that heated debate, which was never personal. It was a disagreement on giving CL equal footing with paralyze. I didn't find out till after everyone left, and in a thread (similar to this one) that you guys only left because of issues with how the server was being run.

Why you waited, or other staff waited, to voice these opinions here, is beyond me. I would never, ever, ignore you in a chat if you wanted to talk about my conduct, or ask about my depth of knowledge on a subject. I'm probably coming off defensive, but there's been what, 5 threads?, that were made about me and a large majority of the heat is coming from a small group of people who have an issue with me, but don't actually know me... but there's always 2 sides to the story.