Hope we can have a healthy discussion on this and keep an open mind throughout. I agree with this point about NLs requiring SE 24/7. But I do not think it is that significant of a downside for NLs when considering the usual bossing team (everybody wants SE and it is like that there is an archer in the party). It is just a difference in opinion and I respect your opinion that archers dc/die frequently, so I have nothing to add here. The effective weapon attack upgrade from dps is ~2 attack from RC to DPS. DPS required 10 more base dex, and you should consider that to reduce the effective attack of DPS by 2 when compared to RC. You can check with a range calculator (after including stopper/apple) to see the effect. Your argument about what entails a "true end game weapon", in fact, show the strength of an NL. Many other weapons do not have a base primary stat and so do not require another 1/11 roll for a perfect stat. NL weapons are expensive because this stat can be perfected as well. @Venin mentioned that we should look at the effective damage to funding ratio, and NL definitely has a higher ratio than other classes. Not only that, their 'max funding is larger than other classes because of greater RNG to perfect their items. Doesn't this mean that NLs have more potential to boost their attack than other classes too? I hope you can see that NLs are advantageous in this aspect.
Ok no point in debating this further, they do more dmg as you said, but costs more at end game and has less utility, these are the facts. First let me point out that how much it costs you to make is not how much they are worth. No one is going to buy a crushed skull for more than 30b. Your pyrope and shield sound right and I will admit that 1h+perfect shield is the sole exception of end game wpns that are more than 30b+, but even then its 25b+ less than a DPS + 6 sets Bfury's. Your overall is very nice, but you went far beyond for that and NL's have the option to do the same by csing then wsing their top and bottoms which super godly player actually do and can easily match 30b with both top and bot. Your Paladin is irrlevant to this point since they get out dps'd by everything. Even with you 30b overall and perfect skull + shield, its not only NL's that out dps you. Lastly a Hero doesn't get outshined by NL's so Heroes should not even be mentioned when talking about NL's being OP. - In Zak, HT, and CWKPQ, a Hero does just as much if not more damage than a NL (aside from doing sed duties of course) because they are hitting multiple targets and are not effected by stuns. Especially in CWKPQ having a strong Hero is like 2x more important than having a strong NL. - Warrior's Stance is way better than any amount of avoidability and shifter - They do not have to spend as much on end game wpn and do not have to spend 20b to get 30k hp - And they Still have cheaper true end game wpns.
Ok first no its not a 2 atk upgrade. At high atk gear, lvl 200 with mw it would be 1 Atk = 7 Luk. So that 10 dex is not 2 wpn atk it's 1.5 rounding up. Also you can hit 150 with base 25 dex for the Sleeve even with: - A Mon instead of a HTP - Luk earrings instead of Dex earrings These two are the only equips as far as I know that you may have to maybe make a trade off of Luk vs dex, so that extra 10 dex requirement ends up being irrelevant. Not the easiest thing to achieve but at the same time, it's not super hard either. And yes NL's have a higher effective damage to funding ratio, but that again comes with the ultra huge price tag if you want true end game satisfaction, and yes this satisfaction is very important for many people when they are near this stage. Also just as MM's snipe, Pally's hammer, and Shad's meso explosion minimizes the need for funding, the design of a NL is the polar opposite where the need for funding is maximized. Anyways i've spent enough time on this thread, ive said my peace. Thanks for reading
Thanks for taking the time but I also see no point in furthering the discussion. The votes speaks for itself. I am one who live breath and dream NL and really believe that this class is overpowered. I choose to turn a blind eye on the other areas of royals such as cwkpq and zak because they are not end game in my eyes, but to others they are. This is probably irrelevant to alchemist but the NL's avoid/shifter and stance is incomparable because NL's avoid is just that good. I was thinking to make a shad sed mule for my hero because I seem to have a slight interest in getting it to 200. Somehow I felt so stupid when someone suggested to me to use my NL as a sed echo mule in HT. This is an amazing alternative rather than making another shad mule and I will opt for this 100%. Thanks
I didn't imply that NL's needing less funding to out dps other classes at average and end game funding mean they were more expensive, I meant the opposite. No one is going to buy a Crushed Skull at 30b because no one is going to sell one at all. That means the people who want a perfect Crushed Skull will have to scroll it themselves. You can replace Crushed Skull with Claymore, which would be more expensive, but more realistic for your claim. Warrior's can also cs their top and bottoms if anyone can even get to that point. Paladin's are in fact a class that can cost more and do less dps at all stages compared to NL's. If we're talking about pure end game for these classes, bottom tier Paladin and top tier Hero can spend much more on their equips and get less out of their damage than NL's. Even if it's not too much, NL's still outshine Hero's. -Krexel, Toad, Bga and NL's still do better than Hero's overall against HT, and Zakum. - I don't agree that Stance is better because the high chance to completely avoid getting hit is much better than the high chance to not move after you get hit -Paladin's/Hero's have different situations in which different weapons are better. A good end game Warrior would incorporate at least 2 of them which is very expensive. -It's more expensive to have multiple end game weapons.
I voted no because I main a NL. Period. On a more serious note, I've read through the entire post and I feel that it has become a debate between NLs trying to defend themselves (using reasons of funding, SE, hp washing etc.) and non-NLs try to rebut them. Instead of focusing on how NLs are overpowered, why not focus on how to close the gap on other classes (thanks all staff for the hard work with Update 59). My suggestion is (I still do hope no change will be made) to increase apple duration to 15mins and remove the duration increase from alchemist. This way NLs remain the same, and other classes "close the gap" on NLs. An increase to stoppers' duration can also be considered (not so significant; 30sec compared to 5min on apple) but I think my overarching intention remains. However, my greater concern is when will this NL vs other classes debate end? Should my suggestion be implemented, the next argument will be "Oh NLs have a greater WA multiplier and att pots make them even stronger. Lets nerf them so NLs are less OP". The fact remains that NLs will always be a more efficient attacker compared to other classes due to the original design of the job. FWIW, I do boss with party combinations of 4 NLs + SE or 1 hero/dk +3 NLs + SE and the time difference is quite insignificant. After all, this is just a game and we should all just have fun right?
I dont get it... Nl are weak... They need se means you need a weak botmaster too.. nl+bm< sair+Buccaneers. Nl is just strong in bigger partys... Appleduration would be nice to raise. Alchemist is fine, nerf flashjump an we got no more nooblords on this server thihihi Its the class for hyperactive people so let em be hyperactive. Its okay We dont mind in that
Avoid is op When I did HT on my bishop and had a hero in the party as sed they struggled a lot and needed to use a timer and for me to go heal them all the time. I saw a hero get hit by 1/1 like 3 times in 1 sed. When I did sed on my NL on the other hand it was a lot easier. I dont use timer at all after the tail die and I can survive even when the bishop die/dc. Not to mention the warriors had 30k hp while my nl had 16k and it was still much better at sed. There are also other advantages like reduced potions use, much lower chance to die from failed autopot, and a good chance to survive instant death attacks (ht tail touch, bga, anego)
Just a simple nope. Spoiler: NL Endgame dmg Range clean MW20 Spoiler: Endgame NL Gear Spoiler: Endgame NL dmg with Apple & NO SE Spoiler: Endgame NL DPS with Apple & SE DMG with SE & Apple: 343k / second DMG without SE & Apple: 141k / second dmg loss upon not having SE: 202k / second which equals a 59% (!) dmg loss or to say it differently: DMG without SE & Apple = 100% DMG with SE & Apple = 243% Comparison with a Endgame Corsair: Spoiler: Corsair Endgame dmg Range clean MW20 Spoiler: Endgame Corsair Gear Spoiler: Endgame Corsair dmg with Apple & NO SE Spoiler: Endgame Corsair DPS with Apple & SE DMG with SE & Apple: 399k / second DMG without SE & Apple: 378k / second dmg loss upon not having SE: 21k / second which equals a 9,5% dmg loss or to say it differently: DMG without SE & Apple = 100% DMG with SE & Apple = 105,5% On a sidenote, here's the DPS with Assassinate Boomerang Step combo for a Shadower with 6.6k clean range without any attack potions with and without SE: DMG with SE: 117455 / second DMG without SE: 115446 / second dmg loss upon not having SE: 2009 / second which equals a 2% dmg loss or to say it differently: DMG without SE = 100% DMG with SE = 101.7% Imagine a Corsair having to use a 1wa Gun instead of 123wa. That's about the same as a NL bossing with and without SE (% dmg wise) Assume a regular Zak Run takes 20 minutes for a party of NLs & SE. Then it takes 2.43 times as long without SE = 49mins~ Assume a regular Zak Run takes 25 minutes for a party of non NLs. Then it takes them 10% longer at most, and this 10% is a huge number already, compared to the 1.7% DPS increase for Shads or 6%~ for Corsairs. Then the run would take 27.5 minutes. 2.5 minutes vs 29 Minutes mhmm... That's 2 more apples. Im not even defending NLs. Just trying to take a neutral point of view. What i find really funny is how people always find things to complain about. Take for example this reply i made. All i get as an answer is "WTF HOW U GET SUCH DMG GEARS??? IS THIS HAXX???!??" The answer is simple: git gud And actually reply something of substance to what i wrote. So yeah to summarize once again, no other Class needs SE, they barely benefit from having SE. If i were to do the calculations for any other Class the output is pretty much the same. It's nice to have, but not neccessary. People go on bossing runs with SE because most of the Attackers are NLs. So if, as said earlier the BM / MM dies or dc's, then run is pretty much doomed for Nightlords. it's not rare to hear from 3-4h NL HT runs because the SE disappeared for any of the above reasons. It's only fair to leave Alchemist as it is right now. If however the Client gets fixed for newer Systems and people (namely SE) don't randomly DC anymore, leaving the only option open which is dying, then we could talk about a nerf/change again. Your argument is simply invalid.
just wondering but why did u consider that as the endgame nl gear? i rly dun believe that thats the norm for nls rn
Reduce the w.att from gear / str / dex or whatever equally to make an equal comparison between any class and you get the same % dmg increase / loss numbers with/without SE. I consider this endgame.
None of that invalidates my response. SE, Echo, MW are buffs that increase damage, and people will delay boss runs in search of SE regardless of their class.
The chart you showed is wrong The Dps change isnt nearly that much Nl deals an average of 200% damage per hit without SE and 306% with SE So basically with SE youd deal 53% more damage. Aa you can see the damage difference is pretty huge but you wouldnt be completly trash and you could still beat zak in 30 minutes instead of 20
Can you guys stick to the point of nerfing alchemist instead of saying NL needs SE? I mean it kinda relates back to why you're saying no on the nerf but it's starting to get out of hand.
If you wanted to nerf night lords, why choose alchemist? It sounds like people have a problem with large single target dps (which is normally less beneficial than good multi-target, however this server is very centered around bossing for non-mage classes), but absurd single target dps is ok as long as their stoppers don't last 90 seconds? wut? Either way, I would rather see more buffs to lesser played classes (like the ones we've seen to bucc and pally ) rather than calling for nerfs. You could always simply play 3 different night lords yourself!
errr how bout u change the echo to No, post the range with just mw20 n compare it to this these are more or less the top nls in the server. these should be the more realistic endgame range rather than ur 10k range with echo n mw20, which correct me if im wrong, is like above 9.5k without the echo? theres literally only 2 people with above 9.5k range in the server. u keep asking us to think abt it but have u actually really thought abt it urself?
Nerfing Alchemist is a ridiculous idea to be honest. Are NLs overpowered? Damn right they are. Why though? because of HP washing, the godly system combined with the numerous chaos scrolls available, and finally overpowered potions like Onyx apples. The entire server's feature list is like tailor made to make NLs overpowered, yet you guys act surprised and complain. If there was no washing and if there was less chaos scrolls available as well as apples being harder to get you would see a lot less NLs overall.
