Single target damage on mages is complete garbage. Even with 1850 tma, chain lightning will do an average of 94k dps. Paralyze performs slightly better, at 102k dps. In comparison, most other late game classes will be doing around 250k dps (see 2nd chart). It is true that mage ult on many boss parts results in high dps. A godly archmage ult will do about 50k dps per target (assuming no elemental modifications). This is particularly interesting in HT. However, even with ult archmages are still a massive hindrance to the party, as all bosses have significant sections of single target damage. The high dps of mage ults is also lessened when one considers that all other classes will be focusing specific body parts, meaning that different parts die at different times. As each part dies, the mage ult does less and less dps. There are also very few situations where ult is even relevant (zak arms, ht main body). In the context of Neo Tokyo bosses, archmages are even more garbage as the end game boss run (Royal Guard, Core Blaze, and Auf) are all single target fights. Note that these arguments can extend to buffing bishop single target also, but I chose to focus on archmages as bishops can at least supply utility in the form of dispel / res / hs to the party. With that said, I would not be opposed to an appended bishop single target buff. Buffing single target mage skills would not affect leeching or general mage gameplay at all. The only change would be that it allows people to play mage in bosses while being less of a hindrance to their party. There are several common counter arguments to buffing mage: Mages have the best farming potential in the game. This is a fact not a counter argument. This change would not affect mage farming rates. Furthermore, bossing being accessible does not provide a meso or exp advantage to mages -- bossing in both aspects is inferior to farming Ulu. This buff would be for those who like mage and want to be social / boss for fun with friends. Buffing mages may result in people not bothering to make attacking classes. This point can be countered by being conservative with the buff amount. The buff should aim to keep mage significantly subpar as single target -- however, instead of doing ~40% the single target dps of a normal class, doing 70% (arbitrarily picked percentage) of a normal class would still reward making an attacker in terms of kill times. Due to magic damage formula, the dps of a highly funded mage compared to a low funded mage is far less of a relative increase than weapon attack classes. This is also seen with cheese being the mage equivalent of an apple, but only providing a 10-20% damage increases where apple will often provide a 60%+ increase (dependent on clean weapon attack). This is a fair point, and a single target mage buff should likely be balanced around lvl 15x to avoid a situation where mid game mages are stronger bossers than other classes. This will result in a drop off for high end mages still, but I believe this is pretty inevitable due to the magic formula. Elemental damage makes this hard to balance. It is true that in specific bosses or parts elemental damage will benefit mages. However, if we aim for the 70% mark of a normal class (again, this will be further diminished at high lvls / funding / attack pots, see point 3), attacking an elementally weak part would only result in 105% damage. Furthermore, almost all relevant bosses have multiple boss mobs or parts. The time spent attacking an elementally weak part of a boss will be a minority of the total time in the boss run. Furthermore, when hitting multiple boss parts at once elemental weaknesses or resistances result in an amplification of already uneven damage distribution, which reduces overall dps efficiency. Mages bossing is not nostalgic. There are a variety of differences between Royals and GMS that have already been made in the interest of balance. For example, Shield MA 60% was removed from Jonin's drop table in Ninja Castle to prevent a price crash. Neo Tokyo's release featured multiple changes to mobs in hp and resistances specifically aimed at nerfing mage ultimates. The well known 4th job skill patch heavily buffed buccs, shads, and paladins. Such changes show that nostalgia does not automatically justify the status quo. Chain lightning in particular would be broken with a buff as it multi hits. This will be less relevant than one might think initially. Chain lightning's range is not large enough to bounce between many boss parts, and in cases where many parts can be hit at once (such as ht main body and zak arms), blizzard would do more optimal dps. There are also diminishing returns on the damage of chain lightning (100%, 70%, 49%, etc), which results in uneven damage distribution and bosses or parts dying at different times, and the mage still having to attack at lowered efficiency while having lost a target. This uneven damage distribution is even more emphasized when bosses / boss parts have differing elemental weaknesses or resistances. However, this does represent some situations (mainly scarga?) where IL can be better than FP. However, FP also does approximately 10% more single target dps than IL, so this can be written off as class tradeoffs. This will inflate mage gear. While this may occur for very high end gear, there could also be an increase in scrolled mage gear (there is currently no point in wasting int scrolls on mage gear when a common item could be scrolled instead at the loss of some slight tma in order to be able to resell later). Furthermore, this "very high end gear" is often either untradeable (cs'd zhelms / htps) or useable as washing gear, which dominates its valuation. "If we are buffing mage single target, why don't we give night lord genesis?" See the counter argument made under point 1. Giving genesis to x non mage class represents a flat buff in terms of both exp and meso farming ability. Bossing is inferior to farming in both aspects for mage, bossing is purely for fun. In summary, it is possible to buff archmage single target damage while still maintaining their position as inferior bossing classes. The results of this buff would be relatively minor, only affecting the subset of people who enjoy playing mage and would like to boss with friends on their archmages.
If IL/FP mages were only slightly inferior to attacker classes i would've probably made a 30k/30k (yes i know HP washing issue, but that's my personal preference on any main i'd play) IL Mage as my main. by slightly inferior i mean same funding, yet "only 15-20%" worse in single target DPS. your points are valid and make sense, yet don't overbuff Archmages making them superior in any scenario. I hope the staff takes this suggestion into consideration. good luck
Tsue explained rather well on why any changes to paralyse/chain lightning, if carefully considered, won't make mages any more op at point number 1. The changes that he proposed shouldn't make mages any better than any other regular attacker in bossing, so they wouldn't be good in bossing; just not absolute trash. And their farming capabilities would be unchanged, so it would in no way make mages more op.
I think these are some really well thought out points to buff mages in boss fights. I really appreciate the point that you made regarding how this doesn't really affect their meso income either. Selling leech is almost always more lucrative than boss splits. I think buffing some of their bossing abilities will make mages less 2 dimensional in terms of their identity; mages are currently only good for leeching. As it stands, most of a mages tool kit is utterly useless. By buffing paralyze/chain lightning and re imagining skills like fire/ice demon, some new dynamics could be added into the game, lending to new team compulsions and bossing configurations.
That's sort of the issue- it should affect your ability to leech or farm if you also get better bossing.
My main is I/L arch mage and level 19x. I love bossing with my mage. It used to be difficult to join partys, and still is with randoms, but friends don't mind inviting me. Sometimes I can't be a big help, but there are some positive affects at certain bosses with I/L mage present. Zak arms getting destroyed quickly is one thing as mentioned above, but other benefits can be: Freezing and very quickly discard of Shao clones. I duo Shao with friends every now and again. Typically my friend will push clones away from the boss, and I will then do a combination of blizz to freeze them, ice demon to deal consistent damage, and chain lightning all 3 at once. Repeat blizz if necessary. My friend can focus on the boss as I do this without clones being in the way, and they are killed quickly. Attacker friends deal higher damage on single targets overtime. However, chain lightning often deals higher damage with 1 hit than my buds attacks. When I went bossing with my friends at Namless magic monster, my chain lightning dealt over 50k damage to the boss. The boss flinches at 50k, so I could help my mates pin the boss without them having to push it all the time. At Dunas v2, I stood on a platform above my buds and Dunas, dealing consistent damage with blizz without getting dispelled, both on the boss and most imperial guards in the area. Each imperial guard would give anywhere from 0.1-1% exp (depending on level of each party member) when killed. After Dunas died, we stayed for a while to kill more guards to help a friend level up. With the help of my ice demon, I actually whited my buds in terms of damage. Bosses that uses weapon shield a lot (when your attacks do 1 dmg only), I can help to continuously deal damage to the boss while my mates can't do much. Basically, if you invest in good gear and know your stuff, an arch mage can be helpful, but it depends on which boss it is really. I wouldn't mind if my chain lightning got even more powerful, but I can also see why mages would become overpowered if so.
Please see points 1 and point 8. "OP" should be defined before use. I believe that "OP" is best quantified in terms of mesos/time and exp/time. This would not increase the mesos/time or exp/time for mage at all -- spending your time bossing is strictly inferior in both aspects to farming on mage. In the time it takes to get the party gathered, do prequests (in the case of ht), and actually do the boss, the mage could have simply sold leech / farmed ulu. Bossing on mage is only superior in the subjective "fun" aspect. Not trying to be rude, but you should explain why you think this. You have simply stated a position without supporting it. It is not a buff in terms of meso/time or exp/time, as points 1, 8, and my above reply to Dabsta. There is also the nostalgia counter-argument, which I touch on in point 5. To reiterate point 8 as I think it is most relevant to your statement -- consider the converse of "Give nl genesis for better mobbing". In contrast to the proposed mage buff, this nl buff would represent an increase in meso/time and exp/time.
Is that you PurePoisonXD? Jokes and memes aside there has been discussions about it before. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/improving-arch-mages’s-1v1.107532/ https://royals.ms/forum/threads/buffing-arch-mages.115781/
Thank you for your input. It is true there are niche benefits, but other than the zak arms these are extremely minor. Pinning shao clones is generally done on the mandatory hs mule with a summon already. Flinching bosses is semi-useful (moreso in Auf than in Nameless as most people will only do Nameless once), but this role is often filled by warriors / bucc. Re: Dunas, as a godly mage you will generally do about 50k single target dps with your blizz example. Even people sitting in debuff range and just holding down attack will far outdamage this. Likewise with respect to your weapon cancel, most bosses use magic cancel too, so it balances out. In summary, I agree that there are niche situations where mages are slightly better than their average. However, mages are still a massive net negative to the party in almost all of these situations simply due to the low single target damage. It is true that you can boss with friends, but if this was the dominating counter argument then we would not have seen the 4th job skill patch which buffed buccs / shads / pallys. Those classes could boss for fun with friends too. There is a point to which mages can be improved to be less of a dead weight to the party while remaining significantly subpar to other classes in bosses. I attempted to touch on most of the counter arguments in these threads in the op. It should also be noted that these posts are pre update 59, which saw single target buffs to the weaker non-mage classes which undermines the 'status quo' argument. If you feel a particular point from the linked threads is relevant though, let me know and I will think about it. ---- Also a general note: I will attempt to keep my responses centered around the buffs and arguments described in the op. I feel like many feedback threads devolve and become quite unfocused / disorganized both in the proposed changes and arguments for said changes. I want to keep this thread focused on discussing a simple change (% change to single target mage skills) and the surrounding arguments, as I feel like this is the most easily digestible format (and least work implementation wise) for staff.
I'm sorry if my post came off as offensive -- I was actually being sincere when I said "thank you for your input", as I particularly appreciate the perspective of people already bossing on mages. I'm not sure how to prove this intent, but you can browse my post history I guess and see if I have been rude to people before. I was not trying to invalidate the points you raised, just note why I felt that they were not strong enough to be reasons to avoid buffing single target / did not conflict with my arguments in the op (in any case, these comments were aimed for others not you -- you said you weren't against a buff, I am trying to convince people who are not in favor). Sorry if I'm coming off as pedantic, I am just trying to be consistent in my arguments.
You're essentially using reductio ad absurdum as your argument which is ridiculous. Giving a NL genesis is ridiculous but it's essentially the same buff like you said, in reverse, so why would one be okay and not the other? ( I don't see anyone actually arguing about giving a NL genesis, hense the fallacy) And my reasoning? They simply don't need it. Mages are by a VERY large margin, the best farmers, they have access to some of the best money makers, they can leech, and bishops are essential as a support in bosses. They can literally boss, but you want to make them stronger to make them more viable- but even if they are just below the worst bossers, it still, as the other guy said- essentially make a perfect class. It's not ideal- but, that's sort of how Maple works. You have to play multiple classes if you want to do everything. This is no different than how many classes in other MMOs work. Im a bit outdated but back in the day if you want to multi target you had to play a class that did well with that, shamans for example- you didn't play a rogue to multi, and this is completely ignoring tank/heals which makes classes even more unique and special and able to fill niche roles. Mages here are farmers. They level fast, they don't need to HP wash, they make good money. Some people love mages that way, and I'm sorry that some people want to boss on their mages- they still can, but there's no reason they need to be good bossers.
Mages surpassing other attackers is not the point,if they go from being terrible at bossing to being not so terrible it is already an unnecessary addition to a class that far outperforms any other class at one of the most important aspects of the game which is mobbing.
Are they really a bad bossing class? Yes indeed i agree, its 1v1 potential is literal garbage, but its overpowered mobbing skill makes up for it, making them the BEST farming class in the game. Just like shadowers, a decently washed archmage & bishop are just as OP as a seduce target. All warriors sed targets will not be able to compete against them. I use my magicians as main Sed+Supportive DPS unit in horntail daily. Mages won’t die even without heal unless dispel + sed and not casting hero’s will to rebuff. Access to magic guard to make the class unable to be 1/1-ed and infinity, which gives unlimited mp, one could tank horntail’s tail while seduced several times easily Together with elewand5/7 depends on your choice. This class clear spawns so accurately and deals 120k-199k dmg to each Parts on cheese. They do have alot potential if heavily invested on and if their downside of 1v1 is significantly adjusted. Archmages would become a tad too overpowered. ——— Meanwhile what i would suggest if this discussion does ends up supporting this class to be buffed; 163 Staff which is almost irrelevant in the game now can be adjusted such as eleStaff 5/6/7/8 to have mutliplier of their respective element buffed. Ontop of that, Allow weapon’s attack speed scaling on skills : paralyze/CL and fire/ice demon (Currently its the same for all weapon’s speed) To be able to benefit from the lv163 staff’s Fast speed, Speed infusion too should also be able to be placed into considertion for these skills.
I don't see a point of buffing mages non ultimate skills by a small margin, it's not like they'd become viable in bossing anyway. And if they were to be buffed by a bigger margin, then making an attacker class would lose its value. Case in point; I gave feedback for an mm buff, which was eventually implemented. But even with the buffs people still generally regard mm as a meme class and view them as an inferior bm. Just look at any typical boss run, unless you're running with friends, it'll be hard to be accepted in a party if you're not an NL or (the only) se. Pallies, shads and buccs deal respectable 1v1 damage and have their niches, and don't normally get recruited as easily as an nl. The server has been generally becoming more and more min maxed, a small buff won't cut it. And do not call me out on being an elitist player, I personally play a paladin. Even with a very respectable range, I've been turned down at Shao simply because of my class (omegalul). Spoiler Hella ironic because I've recently learnt pallies can solo shao With that said, If someone wants to potentially attack in a boss with a mage, nothing is already stopping them. Dedicated players have done solos of zak even with just a mage, without any buffs. As @Shiratsuyu has mentioned, clearing end game content is already achievable, you just need the right company for it. Mages do not need the buff as bossing was not their focus, as much as I am shoehorning them into a specific role into a 'farmer' type class, I think it's only fair that they remain good at doing so. And the fact that certain classes were buffed does not change anything as they were Wa based classes, unlike mages which are ma based.
1. Wouldn't the possibility of dispel from Dark Wyverns or HT during sed make an archmage/bishop a bad sed tank? 2. Also, do you really think buffing the single target a bit would make them OP? 3. Not exactly a question but... I notice your point of view is very end game oriented. Imagine a fairly new to the server player who is a 4th job completely unwashed Arch Mage . They might want to boss with their friends for fun like at Zak or Krex but at the moment it's completely unviable since they do like 25% or 33% the DPS of an attacker. Why not bring the number up to like 60% to move from unplayably bad to just regular bad?
1.As a Seduce position, There should be an active bishop clearing spawns, even if the bishop misses the wave. Seduce + Sed + Dark Wyvern Spawn in the same instance does happen, is it common, No. the moment one notices this combination happening. Will should be immediately be used, with an insane mana pool that all mages have, MP drain is unable to drop your MP down to even half. Seduce + Dispel is not common, but it does happens too. Then again, the will skill is usually left unused unless these happens. Very rarely that this combination happen twice in 5min intervals. There should also be ress available just incase that this happens. Its not an absolute unkillable seduce target, but its death rate like shadowers isn’t as high compared to any other class. 2. Yes, it will be pretty OP. With their single target DPS buffed into a decent bossing skill with a good mutliplier and attack speed To make CL similar to Crusher/Brandish and Paralyze to similar to paladin’s blast should be the discussed balancing from this thread. Still having insane mobbing skills. RIP warriors MIGHT be the result in this change. While in Horntail/Coreblaze/Zakum probably using Meteor/Blizzard is still the most optimal. 3. Indeed i’m looking at end game with really well invested players and maximising their character’s potential, i believe thats what everyone will eventually walk towards to and where these balancing causes the most effect on as such changes does allow archmage as an competitive option over other classes as their main character. Similar to our current paladin’s hype. Stonetooth prices are above the roof. Priced similarly to DSB/DSC. Oof. Looking at our current state of these Early to Midgame, Leveling 30-70 I/L being one of the top tier classes in CPQ, F/P the double channel misting in petris lvl71-120, their leveling opportunities is already very powerful incomparison to any other attackers. They do shine pretty well in zakums and shao. Yes indeed its not as strong in krex, but in overall progression for 2 friends as new players, the one that chooses the archmage currently would already significant leveling and meso making advantages. Imagine that they would be able to compete with his buddy’s attacker character’s DPS. Aaaand of course they don’t need washing till late game I personally feel that its alittle too Overpowered if the adjustment is made. This is overall is just my opinion.
