reduction of inflation rates - removal/ price hikes of NLC percentage potions

looking at the current state of the server's economy, it is quite clear that there is a constant inflation due to the lack of meso sinks in the game
though there has been efforts, such as chair gachapon, there is still not enough removal of raw mesos from the game to curb inflation

what i would suggest is the removal or price hikes of NLC potions, namely the percentage based ones - honsters, ginger ales, mana bulls and ginseng roots from the shop
or for the prices to match of mushroom miso ramen, or similar

these potions are easily accessible, with an incredibly low price for what they are able to recover, creating an extremely low meso usage for regular training and especially leeching

but my 30k hp fully washed attacker does not even use 300 potions per hour, this suggestion is useless
attacker classes do not pump mesos into the economy, just ironman it to see it first hand

the main meso generator in the economy are the archmages and bishops, with the ults burning through places during leech
if we look at ulu 1 and ulu 2, the drops alone account for 50m-70m in raw NPC drops per hour, at a relaxed pace for most low funded/ unfunded archmages and bishops
even if the singapore maps are ignored, if any archmage were to farm at practically any map with decent spawn counts - malaysia, ludi, sage cats, etc.
the raw meso generation is still significant, making them similar to unregulated money printing presses, which is known to devalue the currencies.

this may be seen as an inconvenience to the game, in a few ways

by using the regular potions, such as sunrise and sunset dews, it limits the up time an archmage might have leeching
- this is to curb 7 hour leeching sessions with 3000 mana bulls, at a cost that is close to nothing compared to the earnings

attackers who rely on high % healing potions will also be affected by having to get elixirs and power elixirs, which will be sought after by mages too
- by keeping the high % healing potions to purely drops, it will increase the cost of running bosses and possibly reduce the availability for attackers to run bosses
- a possibility is to keep honsters, but at at the same/ increased price, so that basic survival is possible for attackers without causing a shortage of elixirs and power elixirs
- then again, its to reduce the inflation rates, so any meso sink is a welcome addition

new players are going to suffer
- well not really, as the low level ultimates burn less mana compared to max, the cost increase should not run them bankrupt
- even if someone casts 1500 casts of an ult at approx 3000mp per cast (low level mind you), per hour
that would be 4.5mil mp burnt, which would only be 9mil - 10 mil per hour, which is reasonably low
- for someone with 10k mp (low level numbers here), using manabulls - 2800 mesos each, with a 60% mana recovery,
the current costs will only be 2.1mil per hour, and this cost will decrease for higher level mages or mp washed mages
- the additional 7-8mil sink per hour will help in reducing inflation, but not necessarily solve all the inflation problems
- additionally the increased running costs can be passed onto the leeching services, which will sink more mesos via taxes

 

Substantiate your claim that there is constant inflation in the server.

White Scrolls and Chaos Scroll prices have been consistent for the past two years, holding at an average of 500m each. If it was true that Royals had constant inflation, then surely these two commodities would have exceeded 600m by this time, no?

And even with these items priced at 500m each, do you realize that the time required to purchase one scroll is significantly less than what it was in old source, 2016?

While I recognize that you did not play in that era, it is a very good comparison of how much easier Royals has become as time has gone on. The player count online in both 2016 and 2020 are the same.

In 2016, the optimal meso farming method was to use a single bishop buffed with SI to 1 hit the Bombing Fish Houses and Gobies at Deep Sea Gorge II. This was a consistent 80m per hour and it beat out solo 1 hit skele leech at the time which was 65m an hour.

In 2020, the optimal meso farming method is to use four mages to 1 hit the Berserkies and Veetrons at Ulu Estate I. This is a consistent 240m per hour. And yet, even for people using only one mage and one computer, they are able to rake in 160m per hour with 1 hit petri leech.

In 2016, White Scrolls and Chaos Scrolls had cost a consistent 300m each. 300/80=3.75. So 3.75 hours of dedicated farming gameplay was required to earn one scroll.

In 2020, White Scrolls and Chaos Scrolls cost a consistent 500m each. 500/160=3.12. So 3.12 hours of dedicated farming gameplay is required to earn one scroll. And that is for an entry level player who has a single arch mage and HS mule to sell 1 hit petri leech.

This route to funding is even faster for intermediate players who would incorporate characters capable of summon farming Heartstoppers for an additional 20m per hour. And of course, for endgame players, we would use the above-mentioned method at 240m per hour.

The point is that the ability to gear up in this game has not become more difficult over time as you claim. Rather, it has become easier and it becomes increasingly easy as a player puts in the effort to set up more and more optimal farming methods.

So I suppose my questions to you are: (1) what inflation are you talking about; and (2) why do you think we need to make the game even easier than it has been the past three years?

Also, as a last point, do you even realize that during the Chinese New Year’s event, the four mage Ulu Estate I farmers were making a consistent 500m an hour and raking in approximately 2b daily? And that at this time period, White Scroll and Chaos Scroll prices actually dropped to 400m-450m? And they have returned to where they have been at 500m?

So your theory that meso generation causes inflation does not hold true in my eyes. And even with the reasoning underpinning your suggestion not holding water, I think it would be pretty dumb to increase potion costs and impact even entry level mage players trying to grind for levels when you could just… change the NPCed selling price of equipment dropped by popular farm map mobs. Lol. o-o

 

the effects of inflation are not as clear cut as a constantly increasing number as there are other factors that are countering it, namely in the supply of items and savings
items in game do not have a shelf life, nor an expiry, allowing them to stay for nearly forever -increasing the available supply, which in turn decreases the value per item (or currency)

as you have stated, with the time required to earn a WS/CS has decreased over 2016 - 2020, from 3.75 hours to 3.12 hours, this is pretty much a sign of inflation, as the value of WS/CS are dropping over time, using services (which is non renewable) as a form of currency
it may seem counter intuitive, but the real world has the same issue, such as banks printing more money

if the banks continuously printed money, the price of something non renewable, say food, will increase over time as there is more supply of money in the system, causing a devaluation of a currency (which actually happens in the world)
-> ask the old folks, parents and peeps from the older generations on how much stuff cost when they were young

the case for the WS/CS, the supply of the scrolls are constant from gacha, while the mesos are being injected into the economy, making both devaluing each other constantly, with mesos being faster at times, or when the supply of NX is faster at times (CNY event, red envelopes are pumping in tons of NX compared to regular days)

inflation can be seen as a good and bad thing, depending on how severe it gets
regular inflation (much like most of the world), is seen as a economic growth factor of the increasing the wealth of the country, and the people having more purchasing power (royals is somewhere here, maybe on the higher side)
hyper inflation - some cases like venezuela, where the inflation was like 10 000 000% (IMF numbers, can check it out), it makes the currency worthless

at this point, if inflation continues as it is, it can cause continuous decrease in the value of items (using playing time as a guide), and possibly lock meso making solely to leeching, which is service based (non renewable as compared to items)
-> like what was pointed out, 2016 1 hit skele leech was around 65m per hour, compared to today's 1 hit skele leech prices at 100~120m per hour (raw inflation effects)
-> if we went to do farming, say road to oblivion 4, where most of the mesos came from drops, the same 30m earned from drops back then is worth a lot more as compared to the 30m of today
-> another example would be the returning players who did not play for 2 years or so, the value of the items they had on hand (raw mesos, CS/WS) right when they left will be valued much lower when they return
say they had 30 CS when they left in 2016, they would have a value of 9b back in the day
came back in 2020, that same 30CS is worth 15b, which looks like a huge profit
but if the player were to buy 1 hit skele services
9b in 2016: 138 hours of leeching
15b now in 2020: 125 hours of leech
suddenly there is a decreased purchasing power for the same items, at a higher value

this pretty much locks wealth generation to mages, as they hold the power to inject mesos into the economy, and to sell leech, which is highly available as compared to attacker services in zak, ht, etc.

 

thanks GMs =)

 

But meso generation has to cause inflation. There's no inflation if no new mesos are being injected into the economy. I agree with you though. I'd much rather have equips sell for less than pay more for pots. That way, all stages of the game remain equally affected and you won't have low level sins not being able to recharge their steelies or low level mages not being able to afford potions to pq. Its not like I don't understand the reason the staff proposed these changes but I believe it was mostly from a high level, pro POV.

 

Part of the goal is to give all stars a place of use- if new players can't afford to use better stars (which unless someone gives them, they probably wouldn't have anyways) they can, and should go to a cheaper/lower attack star- tho people don't seem to like that sentiment.
The other half, I don't see where people are struggling to maintain their stars while leveling- I have leveled a sin, and play tested with the new costs, you can make more than enough mesos to afford your stars and pots (pots aren't more expensive mind you)- however you do have to loot stuff, I used to see a bunch of people not picking up their drops- this sort of indicates way too much money was coming into the server if a level 10 doesn't need to loot anything but some equip drops.

I also want to emphasize, none of this is set in stone lol. We had to start somewhere with the adjustments to the prices for stars and NLC pots. I've already mocked up some new numbers which ive pitched to the staff discord, should help with lower levels- but I really really want to mention, again, that shouldn't be an issue anyways.

Additionally, new players are going to struggle regardless. It's hard having no money and no one to help you and no higher level accounts to help fund a new low level character, but we all started there. Something people here have that they didn't in GMS, is voted NX, which 1 day of voting can get you 30m which is enough to recharge a stack of steelies more than 420 times. For a point of reference, thats equivalent to over 44 HOURS worth of steelies if you used lucky 7 (without haste or mastery, this is a new low level remember) non stop, without moving, or potting, or anything.

We are hearing feedback, so please just be patient- I don't think Matt or Kevin have had a chance to really sleep, its been a couple days, and the rest of us can't really do anything but discuss it, read feedback (which we are) and plan. When we know more, we'll let you guys know.

 

equip prices drops at popular maps but low potion cost
sure the profits will drop per hour at places like ulu, so inflation is kept in check
but there will also be that off brand farming map that gets left unchecked, meaning that the problem just shifts to a new location when people find a new place to farm
so if there is a need to slow inflation, the measures would to either drop all equip sell prices through the entire game, or increase the dirt low prices of the NLC potions

high potion cost during update 65
the increased prices are targeting the high level POV, that is true
that is also because they are the ones who are injecting most of the wealth and items into the game

as for low level players, the price hike in the NLC potions should not affect too much, but on the contrary, would help them earn more mesos - all because the prices of elixirs and power elixirs will also increase
new players do not really use the % based potions during the low levels, as they don't really heal much as compared to the solid stuff, like reindeer milks, cheese, pure water, etc.
so any accumulated elixirs and power elixirs will be kept for later levels, or sold before the price hikes in any case.
but with the price hikes in NLC, these elixirs are now worthy drops to sell to players, meaning that low level drop tables with elixirs will be very much welcomed

further comparisons with the old prices, on effect on new players
for old mana bulls, 2800 mesos for 60% mp healing is insane savings only for the 4th job mages, as they are the only ones who burn through MP like no tomorrow
the normal cost of MP from normal potions is usually around 2 mesos per mp, but as long as the player has above 2334 mp, the mana bulls will be saving them mesos already
but the only ones who reach that kind of MP normally are the mages and very high level thieves and bowmen
new mages will not be too affected by the increase, as their MP pool is not too high, and there is MP eater to supplement their mp losses from mobbing or magic guard
the new price of mana bulls at 13400 mesos will only start saving mesos when a player has more than 11167 mp, which is roughly a level 160 mage without mp washing

as for the old honsters, 2800 mesos will start saving after 4667 hp (1hp = 1 meso), but even then, the heal amount is still low as compared to cheese and reindeer milks, making honsters kind of a potion for high level bossing (honsters out heal cheese only at 6667 hp, out heals milks at 8334 hp ).
the only players who reach 4667 hp naturally are the warriors, high level unwashed thieves, pirates and bowmen, and washed players
but if someone is already washing, i don't think they can qualify to say that they are new players
the current 8000 meso price tag will only save mesos on players with more than 13334 hp, which are pretty much washed players, even the warriros (for reference, an unwashed 120 hero will have about 9k+ hp)

but overall, my view on the game balance of % potions is that they are very premium in terms of effect, as they scale amazingly into the end game
a 1 press solution to high healing and mp recovery, along with inventory space savings
at NLC, the availability was too amazing, as everybody could go there and buy these powerful items for a low price

 

Why dont u just nerf Droprate back to 2x en leave the spawn rate the same then u get way less money in to the economy and everybody is effected and not only the archmages.

i suggest:

1. Leave spawn rate the same on the ulu maps.(and other maps if effected)
2. Droprate of all mobs back to 2x
3. Nlc pots 200% of the Original price.
4. bring tax up to 5 %
5. Remove Ap Resets out of NX Store and place them at Frederick for 15-20m

in this suggestion u got 4 meso sinks who effects everybody.

whit these changes u will get allot of mesos out of the game. @Matt @Tim

 

C'mon man, you can't really say 'part of the goal is to give all stars a place to use' when you very well know its just gonna be subis, steelies and ilbis (not accounting for high level stars) as nobody collects kumbis, icies, etc. when they're essentially worth zero mesos and will continue to be.
Also, I apologize as I didn't express myself correctly earlier: it's not that you can't afford to recharge stars, its just a burden to do it. It isn't really fun to worry about stars costs. It isn't fun to jump by a low level mob and not kill it cause 'that's mesos down the drain'. I'm sure you can make enough mesos to recharge a set but is that really the point of your sin? To keep up with recharge costs? Position yourself mentally as an actual new player for a second. Don't you think you'd ask yourself 'why am I at disadvantage?', 'how come other classes don't have to sustain their weapons (archers, for instance)?'. Plus, within those tests, did you account for PQs? If you choose to participate in KPQ, CPQ or LPQ as I imagine many players enjoy doing (nostalgia, good exp), you're essentially just spending money and not getting back any. Will they be able to keep up? or perhaps will they be forced out of the PQ area as its too expensive to solely level up in party quests.
"One day of voting = 30m" - Yeah, I think you could get even more than 30. Voting is not only optional but it awards you with NX (iirc there's a level 50 requirement for resets and gachapon tickets), not mesos. Although there's some people out there that would rather get mesos over customizing your character, that's probably not everyone. Having said that, I'm pretty sure you'd still feel at a disadvantage when your level 18 pirate friend buys a 10 att glove with that juicy nx money but you have to settle for an 8 or 9 att, cause you had to cover your steely recharge costs - which will be the case every single day.

tl;dr: I'm not saying these recharge costs aren't possible to keep up with. I'm just saying it takes away fun from things, puts new players at a disadvantage and for what?

 

I really like this idea. But let's be serious here, because this solution could almost solve the price inflation without jacking the price up on pots and stars so hard. They did it in GMS at or just before v83 and it worked (They nerfed the pricing pretty hard, iirc it was dropped to almost 10% of the original value [500k drop -> worth 50k to npc now]). People also weren't as pissed off. I can probably fill my inv at skele's with equips and sell the whole inv for 15-20m every 40 minutes or so, which covers the new cost of pots + small savings at the end. If this was taxed so for example, if an item dropped is worth a 1/4 or 1/5 of what it was worth before, then that's approximately 13b sunk from the economy throughout the whole day. This would directly effect high-level players, instead of effecting even the lowest leveled players in the worst ways. Mind you, this could also cause an increase of price for leeching at skele's, because the cost of pots will no longer replenish its self.

 

So it a been a few months of living with the potion price adjustment and I would like to make a little review and suggestion here instead of making a new thread.

Mages- barely makes a difference in meso loss rate for me. I just buy a cheaper pot now that has a better meso to mp/HP ratio.

Most attacking classes - again, just finding a better pot to use more efficiently.

BUT WARRIORS- I USE SO MANY POTS, WHEN NL'S COMPLAIN ABOUT STAR RECHARGE PRICE, I LAUGH HYSTERICALLY. Star recharge price nerf is chump change compared to the amount of honster/gingerale/elixirs. Warrior is arguably the most expensive bosses to fund now due to this. I think we can fix that.

Solution - an exchange quest line or pot store only accessible to warriors, selling untradeable pots at a more affordable rate.

 

Hello, it has been many months since this thread's discussion came to a close. And your suggestion to implement a specific solution for warriors is a bit tangential from this original topic. As such, I will be locking this thread. I know you wanted to add to this thread instead of creating a new one, but we want to discourage the habit of necroposting--especially in the Feedback section. You should feel totally free to create a new Feedback thread.