Hi everyone, Since the last thread regarding this subject (https://royals.ms/forum/threads/closure-on-the-use-of-mouse-wheel-to-drop-mesos.124867/#post-711096) has been closed due to the OP basically being done with it, I'm opening another thread regarding the same subject. Tagging everyone from previous thread: @Tomatoed @Jsgk_ @iCookies @Spaghetti @Superluminal @Vend @Tim @Evan We were left with alot of question regarding the following statement coming from Tim (GM): -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The statement from Sof is coming from us. Currently: You're allowed to rebind keys in a 1:1 action matter with third party software as there is no direct benefit in doing that over using the default keys. We also allow the use of controllers and remapping software for example as long as the player can reply while playing to not be mistaken for a bot. Only when one action registers multiple outputs will there be a violation of the T&Cs; for example, one scroll (finger movement) of the mouse wheel registering multiple clicks is not ok. This would grant players an unfair advantage since it is no longer a 1:1 action and not every player has access to this hard- and software benefit. ↑ Game Hacking - The act of using or benefiting from any third-party program, macro program or otherwise defacing or modifying any part of the game software to gain any sort of advantage over other players, or otherwise selling, advertising, distributing or posting information related to the act.Punishment: Permanent ban. I see there are multiple points brought up in this thread and other posts so I'll address those too: ↑ Shadowers are inherently a flawed class due to its poor design as it is the only job able to directly exploit a factor of user input (how fast you drop) to manipulate your dps output. The fact that meso explosion doesn't rely on your character's range and that, under certain conditions (immovable/pinned bosses or 50k bags, can dish out the best DPS in the game using a fruit knife doesn't help its case. This was updated in a later version of the game and im personally a fan of including damage range in the damage calculations for meso explosion. We haven't had the priority to do this yet however feel free to leave more feedback regarding that change. ↑ I have never seen anyone complain about it, except a handful of individuals that choose to go down the manual path and get salty at those who use mouse wheel. To me the only exploit that is concerning for Shadowers is the individuals that do bosses with crazy high sack amounts with the intention of abusing the meso explosion glitch. Even if you havent seen or noticed complaints it would still be unfair to allow people with better hard- and third party software to have an edge on other players which is albeit far-fetched a pay-to-win aspect which we would like to avoid. ↑ Imo it's not an unfair advantage. If it's not allowed, shadowers will more likely have an unfair disadvantage. To drop fast and have high dps, almost on par with NL (who basically stand there and attack), you will have to put in some effort. We're mainly concerned about the unfair advantage it will have between shadowers rather than comparing between other jobs and their damage output. The shadowers without the ability to have their mice scrolling to provide many clicks would be at the unfair disadvantage. Regarding your lowest DPS statements I'm not sure if thats true. I hope this answer is what you were looking for and feel free to discuss more Shadower related feedback unless OP would prefer new threads to be opened for that! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all, Spaghetti argued the following: "Mentioning that "not every player has access to this hard- and software benefit" is an inherently flawed statement. That's the same as saying someone playing with the bare minimum requirement in specs to play this game is at a disadvantage to someone playing with a GTX 1080 Ti, 32 GB RAM, and an Intel i7 4.7 Ghz+ processor because the guy with the better specs can open 5+ clients as opposed to the 1 client that the other guy can open because they "don't have access to that hardware benefit." While that is true, the staff doesn't seem to mind that kind of unfair advantage. The same stance should be taken for this issue as well." Evan replied and the most important part is: "Like Tim said, not everyone has the ability to rekey in such a way, and in that sense it is unfair IMO." This can be easily done by a free program everyone can download. If it's allowed then we can just create a thread to help every shadower, just like we did with telecasting to make it more fair to everyone. The only thing you need is a mouse and lets be fair, we can assume that everyone is using a mouse of some sort while gaming. Tim also said: "You're allowed to rebind keys in a 1:1 action matter with third party software as there is no direct benefit in doing that over using the default keys. Only when one action registers multiple outputs will there be a violation of the T&Cs; for example, one scroll (finger movement) of the mouse wheel registering multiple clicks is not ok. This would grant players an unfair advantage since it is no longer a 1:1 action and not every player has access to this hard- and software benefit." This last part (This would grant players an unfair advantage since it is no longer a 1:1 action and not every player has access to this hard- and software benefit") has been discussed already. Not only Spaghetti pointed out that it's not the case that people are not able to benefit from this hard- and software benefit, others did too (like myself in the same thread). Now, about scroll wheel dropping not being a 1:1 action. If we argue that we have to look at the motion of the finger for scrollwheel dropping (1:2 action; 1 finger scroll leading to more than 1 click) rather then what it should be, i.e. 1 click of the scroll wheel equals 1 mouseclick (1:1 action), then we also have to look from the same perspective towards other jobs/skills: one press of a button can't lead to more than 1 attack. So that means we can't hold buttons anymore to cast more than 1 triple throw for example. Because 1 push leads to more than 1 attack, meaning 1:2 action. This would lead to a game that's basically unplayable, annoying and causes health issues like cramps in your fingers or wrists. This is actually the case for shadowers atm but even worse, cuz they need to spam the left mouse button which is even worse than spamming a keyboard button (cuz you need to spam click it and stop the mouse from moving away from the coin in your inventory to drop mesos). This leads to the following questions: 1. Why on earth do we want players who like to play the shadower class have such a bad experience in the game? 2. What is the problem if shadowers deal more damage and have a pain free experience? In short: Who cares...? Shadowers suck at horntail and basically at every moving boss, cuz if you've played a shadower then you know it's hard to move and drop at the same time. The only thing that's making it a little better is the fact that we can use the scroll wheel so we don't get wristpains/CANS and stress levels over 9000. It's true that for krex and zak, shadowers are strong, but are they really that OP cuz of the scrollwheel method? They basically do the same damage as a good NL or DRK and they blow up tons of mesos for it. Since there are basically only cons for not allowing to drop mesos with the scrollwheel, i would say: tolerate the scrollwheel dropping for now untill we find another solution for the meso dropping. This way shadowers can still enjoy the game and we won't face any more of these sad posts (Vend, most helpful guy<3): https://royals.ms/forum/threads/permanent-ban-request.124889/. Also, I don't want to make one of these <<< Please also see the other thread about this subject that I've posted above. I haven't included all comments and there are some that probably explain it better than I did or are also important. I hope we can figure this out together and make the game enjoyable for all.
Update: DutchyGuyWell-Known Member Hi Andreas, May I ask if you guys are discussing the shadower problem regarding scroll wheel dropping and if it should or shouldn't be allowed? I'm waiting for a response on my thread because we were left with alot of questions, but I'm not sure if you guys are planning on answering any time soon ('cause it's a difficult subject and I don't know if you can give a definite answer to it just yet). I also want to ask if I can still use it for now or that it's not allowed untill we find a solution to the problem (because I'm just waiting rn and can't really boss anymore). I also don't know what is, and what isn't allowed. I heard setting up multiple keys as left click is allowed, scroll wheel is allowed if it is 1 click ea scroll and it isn't allowed if you have every scroll click as 1 click. Is that correct? I hope you understand why I'm sending you this message. Thank you in advance, Andreas! Kind regards, Dutchy DutchyGuy, Thursday at 12:59 PMReport Reply DutchyGuyWell-Known Member This is the thread I was referring to: https://royals.ms/forum/threa...mouse-wheel-to-drop-mesos.124996/#post-711758 DutchyGuy, Thursday at 1:00 PMReport Reply DutchyGuyWell-Known Member Invited Tim to the conversation. Hope you don't mind (^.^) DutchyGuy, Saturday at 11:26 PMReport Reply TimAdministrator We explained in the thread before yours that currently its not allowed to do the scroll wheel dropping for multiple clicks per action. You're able to boss, you deciding not wanting to boss because it's not easy is a different point. you're free to discuss this in your feedback thread and we will chime in when we can Tim, Yesterday at 3:26 AMReport Reply DutchyGuyWell-Known Member Yes I get that. Should have left the part where I said I wasn't bossing atm. But what about everything else? I discussed everything me and other players wanted to discuss in the thread I made and we're now waiting for a response. Would be really great if you could answer those questions too Tim. Thanks alot in advance and I hope you can clear up some things for us! Kind regards This is all that has been discussed so far. It's just not allowed and the reasons will remain unclear. Thanks guys, I'll keep you updated if anything happens.
I might be missing where the confusion is, but Tim stated exactly why it's not allowed in the previous thread. As a visual of what Tim means.. Below is regular clicking (best I could do) and below this, is what happens when I rekey. By re-keying my left click to my mouse wheel (one that has the option to be smooth (spins effortlessly)), I am about to click 19 times faster just by spinning my mouse wheel, and it's just a few movements, not a bunch of clicks with my finger. If your mousewheel is "sticky" like it makes a clicking noise when it spins and only spins a little with each movement (what most mouse wheels do), this is what I was able to accomplish. It's a little over 3 times faster than clicking manually.
If I click 130 times per second, will the client actually send that amount of requests to drop mesos, or is there a limit to the amount of requests? If my question sounds stupid it's because I don't know what I'm talking about.
@Zerato Your question is not stupid. I can't spin my mousewheel and i'm not able to scroll as fast as I can cuz i'll only drop coins. So yes there is a limit your pc can take. It's about how low you set your paste delay and it makes some difference how good you cpu is. @Evan The confusion is about the fact that for some reason we look at the finger movement for scroll wheel dropping instead of just 1 click on scrollwheel = 1 mouse click. That reason will make alot of other stuff not allowed too like holding attack buttons (cuz it's 1 action followed by more than 1 attack). Since you can't just spin the wheel for people who can do that, cuz you'll drop a lot of 10 meso coins which really lower your dps by alot, you'll always have to hold back. So I don't think the 19 times faster measurement is accurate (for meso dropping). Last thing that's unclear is why you would want the shadower class to be barely playable, since even with the scroll wheel dropping they are not over powered and they already suck at so many bosses (like ht or bodyguard). Manual clicking just isn't possible for longer periods of time cuz getting cramps from a krex run is just rediculous. So why you guys look at scrollwheel dropping from a different perspective than to everything else, and why would you want to do this cuz it makes the job so much less user friendly (unplayable for some).
The game was set up so you could hold the skill down and use it many times, dropping isn't a skill (for one) and two, I can't hold the button down and use the skill 19x faster than pressing the button. Brings up an interesting idea, we could have a delay on dropping, so wheel or clicking, you can't drop more than X bags per second. I don't really get what you mean, if the cursor is over the drop button and I'm holding down ctrl+V with 00005000 (or however many 0's) I'd be dropping sacks of 5k, not 10s. It's not that I don't want the class to be playable, it's a matter of consistency, and the admins have come to a consensus on this that it's no longer 1:1 and therefor bannable. I have a CB here I made for fun (to bomb BF), and with manual clicking I'm still averaging like 8-10 minute bigfoots and I'm still bad because I keep getting trampled lol. I get it though, it's a lot of clicking and in general it's already a very complicated class (unlike say warriors), but this isn't new. Shadowers have been around for ages, and CB with ME were around even longer, they were the gold standard in taking down zak in early maple. I said this in the other thread, shadowers who have to manually click aren't bad, you guys were just in a really good place for reasons you shouldn't have been and now it seems bad... and at the same time, it's not really the admins fault... it does break the rules as they're written in the TnC.
Just wondering, knowing that people weren't "caught" using mouse wheel for fast-dropping till now, can the server even detect a case where mouse wheel is used for fast clicking on anything? Whether it be meso dropping or any other buttons. Do staff have ways to detect fast-dropping "hackers" from now on? Or will it only depend on reports with visual evidence? Although Tim has cleared things up, I doubt this would stop many shadowers from using the mouse wheel if they are not within the vicinity of a Staff member.
Might be a little off topic, but would Scroll Speed also increase the number of clicks then? If so, would limiting scroll speed somehow make this viable/legal?
Very clear answer Evan. Thanks alot! With the 10 meso coins I was trying to explain that most (if not all computers) don't allow for scrolling as fast as you can and only drop bags. The past delay has a maximum. So you will drop coins in between. Maybe you have a super fast pc where you don't have that problem though, not sure. The idea of having a max amount of meso bags dropping in x time or have a meso bag drop skill for shadowers seems like a good solution though. Perhaps you could even allow any dropping method that way cuz there's a max anyway. If you could answer one more question, that would be great! Is it allowed to have multiple keys as left click (if that's possible) or use the sticky keys function (you do have the + for double click though)? Thanks again for taking the time to answer Evan, appreciate it
I understand we are all a little done with this subject. We now know 'the why' for not allowing scroll wheel dropping thanks to Evan and Tim, so there's only one thing left to do imo. Could some people help me with making a list of all dropping methods and if the method is allowed or not? I think it's nice for all shadowers now and in the future to have such a list, right? I'll start (do tell me if I'm wrong somewhere): Scroll wheel dropping: 1) 1 click ea scroll --> allowed 2) >1 click ea scroll --> not allowed Dropping with keyboard buttons: 3) 1 button as left click (like the '5' on numpad when using sticky keys --> allowed 4) More than 1 button as left click --> allowed 5) buttons that allow for more than 1 click each time you push them (like the '+' when using sticky keys) --> not allowed So everything that is a 1:1 action is allowed, the rest is not. To all players and GMs that helped in this thread: thank you!
Dunno. Maybe it is because the double click function is considered a 1:1 action, because it's just what that key does. But it can just as well be that it's considered 1:2, so maybe @Evan could help us by telling us what method is and what isn't allowed? Could you do that Evan?
I was just explaining what Tim meant, I'm going to leave this question to the admins haha. In addition to these.
