In light of recent bans related to glitch abusing, I thought it'd be a good idea to try and get some staff (and player) opinions on what constitutes/should constitute a bannable glitch abuse. The recent case of Limb/Kiwibear abusing a glitch for extra EXP rests on the assertion that such EXP gain is a significant advantage accrued to the abuser that game design probably did not intend to allow. In response, Mike (Limb) brought up the point that using the Horntail weapon cancel glitch to speed up runs is allowed while extra EXP gain is not. While chatting with some staff members involved in the decision to ban HS glitch abusers, the main reason provided for allowing the HT weapon cancel glitch use was that the "gains to abusers is minimal - at most it reduces boss run time or pot usage by a small margin." The difference established seems to be drawn on the extra gains from the glitch abuse (in the case of HT wep cancel, arguably very little compared to the HS glitch). However, I reported someone sometime last week for glitch abusing Bigfoot - namely, he had glitched Bigfoot into a frame where every Triple Throw attack landed, and Bigfoot was stuck in one location. This makes killing the notoriously pesky boss easier (and outside the possibilities of what the game design most likely intended), so Dimitri banned the abuser under glitch abuse. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/bigfoot-glitch-abuse.73291/ I personally find very little difference between the gains that one achieves through glitch abusing HT wep cancel and the gains one achieves through glitching Bigfoot like Kouji did in my report thread. If anything, the time save (which seems like the main pull factor to get BF stuck in that particular frame) gained through HT wep cancel seems more significant. If making the comparison between the HS EXP glitch and HT wep cancel is too difficult given the difference in unfair gains, how should we interpret the differentiation between two "time-saving" glitches? Having a clear-drawn line between what's bannable and what's not would probably be welcomed from both player and staff ends.
By definition anything you're able to do in the game that wasn't designed or intended for is considered a glitch, whether or not it's considered as an abuse is determined by the gms. So something like smuggling is obviously considered as a glitch abuse but also even something as trivial as dropping a chair while sitting on it is considered as a glitch abuse. If something as minor as that can get you auto banned then I don't get how using mm on cancel melee is allowed when that borders on the same line as smuggling, glitching for a competitive advantage. There's also relogging after you die to respawn in the same map to avoid respawning back in town, again another glitch that's widely accepted and done by everyone that knows about it. From what I've heard, using mm on cancel melee is allowed because HT itself is bugged and casts it more often than it's suppose to and it can't be fixed (correct me if I'm wrong). So because there's a glitch in the game that can't be fixed it's okay for users to glitch abuse against it? Fair enough but then what about before when you were able to use it on Zak? Using mm on Zak got fixed so shouldn't people who've abused it all get banned? What about before when you went into the cash shop to reset your cooldowns, people abused the shit out of that to get infinite echo, I don't remember that being bannable. And what about freezing Krex and HT parts? Every single HT run back then was done by freezing it which allowed people who were below the minimum hp threshold to participate in it and squads were created with the sole intention of glitch abusing it. What I'm trying to say is there's an inconsistency in what we ban for glitch abusing. There's nothing wrong with hand picking what's allowed and what's not even if there's some double standard involved but don't generalize everything under glitch abusing because then we get problems like this where people aren't sure what they can and can't do.
The only glitch that I know and has been used since the start of Horntail is the cancel weapon attack, I don't know if there is still a problem since there have been fixes made and I never did Horntail while I was playing EMS but timers have always had problems and still have problems, that's why we can't have GM events among other things, I have always seen that glitch as a counter to the issues with timers and how spam of weapon cancels were quite painful, I even stopped doing Z-runs cause of that. This is not a new glitch and no one has been banned for that, glitching Big Foot has been bannable since before I even joined the server and abusing some weird glitch to gain more exp, I had never heard of that bug before but it didn't take me that much time to consider the possibility of it being unintentional, or else of course it would just give more exp, since far as I know none of the people using this glitch reported it, so I assume they knew it wouldn't be allowed. I personally haven't seen this as a grey area, but then again I don't generally try to exploit things. I can't think of any other glitch that would make this a grey area, maybe MM but it's still weapon cancel, so still consider it as a counter to timer problems. Finding new glitches and then abusing them for personal gain should give a bit of a warning bell, all I can see this do is make the HT glitch something to also ban for, don't see much of an accomplishment in that.
Appreciate the responses so far. Just wanted to note/clarify a couple things. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this was autobannable because it relates to duping? In which case the ban isn't for something "trivial." All of these are valid points that I think demonstrate the fact that there's no real standard for what's legal and what's not. And resolving all of these issues would be a huge task - my particular question referred to the discrepancy between BF glitching and HT glitching, both of which provide similar types of benefits that, in my opinion, are not as large as the benefits from the HS glitch. So if the staff decides on what is a bannable offense based on "unfair gains," the difference between banning BF glitchers and not banning or preventing/discouraging people from using the wep cancel glitch at HT seems puzzling. Just because there's a precedent to not ban for one and no precedent for the other doesn't seem like a convincing reason - at least to me. I see the two as being nearly identical in benefits. If the standard for differentiating bannable and non-bannable glitch abuse is going to be measured by excess gains, I'd like to see an explanation for how the two are different in principle.
Since the HT glitch is not a new thing and I haven't seen anyone have any problem with that glitch or this grey line before and glitch abuse has always been bannable, says it in the rules as well, I don't see a ban for glitch abuse as surprising any way. So you see them as identical, that doesn't change that you get banned for abusing glitches, I wouldn't believe anyone saying that they think glitch abuse is allowed. There is not the slightest chance that exploiting things to get higher exp would be allowed, so I am curious what your point of the thread is, currently I see it as you want to people to get banned for cancelling weapon attack at HT?
I don't think you understand his point. His first sentence asks to discuss the line between bannable and non bannable glitches. You could also say that canceling horntail cancels gives you more exp/time since it allows you to finish a run first.
The point isn't to ban people for using the HT glitch. If that were the case I'd be right in that ban wagon. I'm asking for someone to explain how the two glitches that I mentioned in my original post are different from a principle standpoint. They both involve a time-saving mechanic that accrue minimal and similar benefits to the glitch user. Yet one is bannable and the other isn't.
I gave my point of view but you seem to have ignored that when you only quoted me on that small part, which I think is a bit of taking things out of context, I feel this is more relevant to my point to your question: This is of course my reasoning as I said before.
I'm not sure how the HT weapon cancel glitch is a counter to the issues with timers, but regardless, both the HT weapon cancel glitch and BF glitch make for easier bossing. They both circumvent the minor inconvenience of dealing less DPS (weapon cancel for HT and invincibility frames for BF). The usage of both glitches ends up saving time and on that point, the HT weapon cancel glitch is more severe than the BF glitch because the former saves so much more time than the latter. From what I understand, HT weapon cancel glitch is not bannable because HT weapon cancel is seen as more painful than BF invincibility frames? o-o
Your quote refers to zakum weapon cancels, something that is not being discussed. If you've done a horntail run recently, you'd notice that there isn't a "spam" of weapon cancels, and aren't weapon cancels supposed to be a game mechanic? Joey clearly states that this post is here to discuss what the line between something that is bannable and something that is not is. None of these glitches are new things. What is new is that some are only now being addressed. Since most normal players don't discuss all the known glitches and if they are bannable or not, Joey is looking for insight into this.
No it didn't, I said I stopped doing Z-runs because there is no way to cancel weapon attacks and when being spammed there you can't do anything about it. Since this is about bannable and not bannable glitches, Warriors can abuse Zakum though? And like I already said before: If there are no issues with the HT weapon cancels or Zakum weapon cancels, then there is no reason why this bug is being allowed anymore?
I don't like to argue over pointless things. Read your quote again. I never said anything about warriors at zakum
Maybe I was unclear, I don't usually have to quote myself so maybe it gets a bit clearer now, but I was referring to Horntail.
We're not talking about Zak. We're talking about HT and BF. Please answer my post. I advanced an argument that HT weapon cancel glitch and BF glitch are equivalent in terms of gain (time saved) with the former being more profitable than the latter. However, the former is not bannable and the latter is. Joey, Mikey, and I want an explanation on why there's this discrepancy. So again I ask: @Andreas HT hasn't had timer problems for months. Timer issues may still affect other things like GM events, but it doesn't apply to HT. Also, HT weapon cancel may occur more often than usual or may last longer than usual, but it's not permanent. There's no real reason to do the HT weapon cancel glitch other than to save time and because it's convenient, which is exactly why people do the BF glitch. So why is the HT weapon cancel glitch not bannable but the BF glitch is?
There are even more broken glitches in the game which give people huge advantages, cough power guard blocking magical damage and 1/1, which clearly isnt working as intended but yet everyone accepts it as a normal game mechanic.
Rule 20 of the T&C states that Spoiler 20. (Glitch Abuse) Exploit errors in design, features which are not documented and/or bugs to gain access that would otherwise not be available or to obtain any competitive advantage (Always contact a game master if you are unsure);Punishment: 1st offence - 3 day ban, 2nd offence - 7 day ban, 3rd offence - permanent ban I'm guessing that because in every horntail run (in fact, every horntail run that I've been to), everyone does the mm/cancel wep cancel glitch, nobody actually gained any "competitive advantage". That is why I'm thinking these "glitches" are something admins/GMs closed one's eyes to. I had done several horntail runs together with some of the GMs' normal characters that had also performed said "glitches" too. Not that I'm calling all of them out to be banned or something, but I'm pointing out that everyone is doing this glitch. Nobody wants to be that "black sheep" doing 1s and prolonging the run. So technically speaking, nobody has actually gained any "competitive advantage" by "glitching" horntail runs because everyone is doing it. Although, by principle and the T&C, everyone should be banned for it given that there's evidence of it too. In contrast, glitches like HS glitch, stuck BF glitch or damage glitches only benefits a small group of people who knows about them and intentionally abuse them while others couldn't. Thus, they've gained a "competitive advantage" and will be banned if there are evidence. Just my opinion I think having this thread is good though, because many many players are confused by what is bannable and what isn't. Here is another thread regarding Time Leap not very long ago, https://royals.ms/forum/threads/time-leap-glitch.73743/ . It's the same issue - "Is it bannable or not bannable?". I thought I should bring it up too so an admin or gm could clarify this too. Sorry for the wall of text
Using the HT weapon cancel glitch does give a competitive advantage though. You save time which indirectly means using less pots, having more time to run other bosses or grind. And everyone doing a glitch doesn't mean that the glitch no longer gives a competitive advantage. It only makes you on par with other people who have that unfair competitive advantage.
Yep, I agree, lesser pots used and finishing horntail earlier, hence an advantage against how the game should be played and even possibly unfair to future new players when this glitch is fixed (HT book prices rise/longer runs, more demand for apples etc) but definitely not an advantage against other players that currently goes on horntail runs because everyone else is doing it thinking it's the norm. Which is why I was saying there isn't a crackdown on people "abusing" them. Also, to think about it, I think the reason why everyone abuses these glitches thinking it's the norm is because nobody has ever been reported upon and banned for it (at least, not that I have heard of). I have a feeling if one person was to be banned for HT glitches, there will be an outcry of unfairness especially if it's a popular player, more reports will ensue, and then revenge reports and then more drama and chaos I don't wanna be involved and think of
I think people are missing the main point of this thread which isn't specifically about removing cancel melee from HT, glitching BF's iFrames or the HS glitch; it's that here's a broken game mechanic that was never supposed to exist yet people are actively abusing it, some with consequences and some without. Yes some of these glitches are more noteworthy and perhaps more game breaking than others but that's beside the point. At the end of the day they're all the same in that it's people knowingly glitching a mechanic of the game that wasn't intended the way it was designed to function. Edit: I just wanna add that when I say the words "abusing" and "glitching" I don't necessarily mean them with a negative connotation, I actually find some of these glitches to be pretty awesome and would love for them to become a permanent addition to the game.
