*Disclaimer: This is not a personal attack on Aaron, so please do not reply about him if it does not relate to the aforementioned issue. This is a response to his performance pertaining to rewarps.* Recently I've noticed the abundance of denied boss rewarp threads on forums, in particular from the GM Aaron. A key factor in these denied boss rewarp threads is "no evidence of server lag." Some queries: "rewarp" "no evidence of server lag" - Aaron's posts "no evidence of server lag" "cannot offer" - Anybody's posts Now, I am aware that the staff has deemed refunds as privileges, but if you are going to do them, I believe that they should be done consistently. Since bossing is an integral part of this game at higher levels, it can be frustrating to see a refund thread denied, especially when most of the party members disconnect at the same time. Thank you for reading.
I don't quite understand the problem. If there's no proof of lag (ie: none of the GMs saw it, nor did we get multiple reports in game at the same time, nor did we see any mass flooding of warning reports which indicates lag spikes).... then there's no proof of lag. We can't rewarp just based on word alone. We get dozens of ~gm requests per day for people asking to be rewarped because they crashed, because their client black screened, etc etc. Often one party member, maybe two, will d/c out of a run. That doesnt indicate a server-wide lag spike.
I understand what you're saying. I'm just trying to point out the irregularity with the rate that Aaron declines a rewarp due to "no evidence of server lag" vs. the rest of the staff. I did a quick query of your account and I found much less instances of this while you have been a member of the staff for much longer. Now, I don't know how you guys do these confirmations on the forums. If they're individual then that is what I am trying to bring up. If they're as a group then we have nothing to discuss.
Which still doesnt prove anything. Again, if there's no proof of a server wide lag spike or of a regional d/c, then do you expect him (or us) to approve it anyway? I'm sure if you went through my post history you'd see quite a few declines as well. Whether it's refunds or rewarps. It has nothing to do with him as a GM or a person. I don't really understand why you're singling him out, just because he's a little more on top of the threads lately than others. If any of us GMs are online and we experience a lag spike, every other GM has the ability to find out when that occurred.
I've heard quite a few people upset in my buddy list as well complaining about lag, regional or not, and the first thing they do is blame GMs for being "unwilling to help". It's really quite frustrating when there is no way for us to know if it was lag since we were not lagging. We also don't know if there was mass lag if we were not in game if there was no mention of it elsewhere. I think Aaron has taken upon himself to do something that a lot GMs don't like doing (but have to do anyway) because we know people are going to complain. Aaron is just doing his job. Some of us answer other questions and requests better. If he wasn't there to experience the lag and if he got no reports of it, then why would he confirm a refund? We always talk about if there were lag spikes or not, it is only natural for him to deny them if he has no evidence of such. He's doing what he's supposed to and I don't think the staff has ever disagreed with him on any of the threads he denied.
Sorry just now saw the second part of your post. I've been part of staff much longer, but I also tended to handle rewarps in game much more frequently than the forums. When it comes to the forums I tend to try and handle the character issues of refunds and such instead, as I'm not always around enough to see if there was lag. It's handled case by case not necessarily individual or group. Edit: Also, in cases where a GM isn't sure about if there was lag or if it was rewarpable, we ask each other. So many things get brought up and discussed amongst each other, just because one GM may confirm threads more than the others doesn't really mean a whole lot. It just means that that person is going through and dealing with threads, some may be old issues that were momentarily forgotten.
I'm curious though. I have a habit of keeping a command prompt up which constantly pings royals.ms . Would that be sufficient to prove latency?
Pings could fail due to issues on route to the server, including issues at your ISP, interference to your wireless router, etc. Therefore pings would not be able to be used as proof.
its just that when multiple ppl dc/lag at the exact same time you would think that is because of the server. but that is not the case appearently. or maybe theres just not enough evidence to support it.
Of several threads I saw recently declined, there was no proof even in the SS that multiple people d/ced at once. All except for one, but I can also understand not being able to be sure of that one either. Multiple people missing out of a map could also mean they died, or they left. I've seen it where there was regional lag and the other members of the party left the zak run. When I went to rewarp them in game, I was confused because the zak had disappeared. Stayed in hide for a while after refunding, and I overhear them talking about how a few of them didnt d/c but they left anyway. We've had multiple cases of people doing that - so of course we're going to look for solid proof now.
I don't see how you would ever be able to prove that you dced with a ss unless youre constantly spamming servertime and ss. Even then you would have 1minute between your screenshots to make your character leave if it wouldve died to claim it dced? I thought the ss was pretty much to prove that you were at the boss before server lag/dc. usually that ss is taken when you notice lag before anyone even dced, sometimes it is taken by remaining party members that survived the lag spike inside but that is not usually the case afaik. Isn't it allowed to leave a bossfight when half the part dc and ask for a rewarp/refund? or do the remaining party members have to stay inside and pray that theres a gm online to rewarp the rest of the party. I'm pretty sure you were able to get refund for the whole party if people dced due to server lag even if not every single one dced I think they should all be able to get the refund later right? The fact that certain people trying to abuse gm rewarps to warp people who died or dced to non server related issues (I thought was a banable offence) I don't think thats anything new. Could you explain to me what solid proof looks like and how we would be able to provide it? Anyways when I did krexel this week me and my friend both lagged and 2 of his chars + 1 of mine dced at the exact same time. I'm not saying that this had to be server related but it seems really odd that we would both have unrelated issues at the exact same time that makes us both lag and dc my guess is theres some new issues that you guys are not aware of since there seem to be a bunch of people who have had similar experience as me and my friend recently. Were they have really thought that they legit dced because of server related lag posted a thread with the proper amount of evidence that you but ended up not getting refunded after because theres no evidence of server lag. Or is it just the lack of evidence provided by us? basically my point is if it only happend to me one time then thats just odd. But the fact is that it has been happening over and over for multiple people and that to me seems as if theres something wrong.
Just thought I'd throw this in as someone who hasn't dced from a boss run but has had lag recently. I understand where staff is coming from. I think it'd be great to know exactly what would be sufficient proof(i.e. Screen shot or other way) to submit on the rewarp thread. Ive had a few friends that were taken by suprise from the dc and didn't have a chance to ss. Anyways onto the last thing. I have noticed since the anniversary closure( or maybe a few days after?) there has been an increase in either server sided lag or connection issues in various countries/regions. For example I have experienced I guess for better lack of words lag even after the SC last night. Now I have friends who are in different regions(Canada, EU(I happen to be in California)) that have not experienced the skipping lag that I have. From what I've seen and others have mentioned its laggy on and off and then I notice my character/mobs will freeze but the chat still remains active. Ive let it sit for a good 5-10 minutes and nothing happens so I relog and its fine for a while. Again may not be the right thread for some of it but figure it didn't hurt . On the case of Aaron, I feel that he has been doing a great job with keeping up with threads etc. After working in a school district for....a while, it gets difficult to manage 300-500 teachers all needing help right away. Ill get complaints about something not working, yet on my end everything works fine. At the same time I understand where you coming from Mike. So after all that lol I feel like the best solution would be a thread with information on how to properly report dcing/lag and rewarps(I know there is one I think but maybe a revamp). Anyways im done, thought i'd just add that.
I have not unfortunately. I understand I was not providing really any evidence but I need to start grabbing trace routes in the future. Again that post wasnt directed towards anyone, kinda just a mid drinking post I will provide traces though next time it happens.
I remember that it was mentioned once that there is a regional lag because of the host or something among those lines, which could explain why some would crash and lag and some won't. To be completely honest, I do understand your struggle but it's just discouraging sometimes... I was really disappointed when I saw the new wrap policy. Like, we are all aware that the server clearly has connection and lag issues. And it was hard enough to get a rewarp, sometimes you'd wait 4-6 hours just to crash again. I do realize it's for the best, the last thing I want is for people to exploit it, but you know... I personally avoid krexing completely just because I don't want to have to deal with proving my lag or wait hours upon hours just to get back at it and if the run completely fails, then I'd waste all of my heartstoppers and apples for nothing. I think everyone who plays a class that bosses under these conditions and continues should get a badge (metaphorically speaking of course) or something like that because it's discouraging to say the least. I think it's wonderful that we find a workaround in every issue; if you DC in HT you can use VMWare, if your graphics are glitching you can manually fix them before it occurs, but when it comes to lag and connection, you're hopeless and things are out of your control and you're solely relaying on the server (unless you got your own internet connection problems). Yeah I know re-warps are a privilege and etc but I feel like when they're being denied (not speaking from personal experience) it's like you don't acknowledge the problem and I doubt this is true because there's of course more to it and people can lie but that's the vibe I get from it and I can't help it. I think this issue is very controversial and people are always gonna have different opinions about it, but I know for me personally, it does stop me from doing things I'd normally do on a "normal" server. Don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for everything that we have and that we reached so far, I mean I was here when there were 50 players online. But I do kinda disagree with the recent changes that were made to the re-warp policy.
As Hampa said, I'm curious as to what constitutes as "solid proof" and if there are set numbers such as a xx% dropoff in server population because as mentioned before, I noticed a irregularity in the rate that "no evidence of server lag" was found. If you would like, I can go through and give each gm a percentage to show.
I've been trying to think of how to reply to this in a concise way that puts my thoughts into clearly formed examples. Things I look for when deciding whether to approve or deny someone's rewarp request: (If i'm online) : -- Was there a large amount of in-game fast attack warnings all at once? This is almost always indicative of a regional or server-wide lag spike. - Did I d/c? If so, was I multi-logged and did all or most of my clients d/c? --- If yes, check MTR. Did MTR look normal? -- Check skype chats to see if other GMs d/ced or reported lag. -- Check shoutbox to see if others are reporting lag as well. -- Log back in and observe buddy chat/guild chat/ incoming ~gm's. If I was offline and I'm waking up to multiple threads, I check: -- Skype chats to see if there was any notice of lag from any other GMs -- Other char issue threads: Was there more than one submission around the same time frame? What time did the group enter the boss according to logs? -- In the SS itself, is it only one person d/ced? Or is it multiple? Is the SS of them talking about lag (or anyone in bl/guild), is it of their group standing outside and waiting for rewarp (such as people standing in CBD after krex d/c)? ---- Did multiple people in the party submit an SS showing they all d/ced as well? -- Shoutbox logs. Did other people at the same time notice lag? -- Ask other staff if anyone remembers any lag around that time. No it isnt foolproof, and this is just what I do. Other GMs may be a little different in how they do things. If we're waking up to multiple threads, it's hard to determine which are server sided lag spikes or which may just be personal ones. Some people legitimately don't understand the difference. Edit: And yes, John is correct in that it doesn't matter how many posts a certain GM may have made. Each case is individual. Aaron may have declined more threads in the past week. But I can bet you that I've declined twice as many in game requests if not more. You just don't see it because it's not visible on the forums.
So you're trying to tell me that a statistical anomaly should just be ignored without any explanation or reasoning?
It's not a statistical anomaly. Aaron is simply replying to more Character Issue threads than other staff members, so if other staff members aren't replying to requests for rewarps, naturally you will see significantly more by someone else. Same decision would be rendered by any staff member, it's just who makes the actual post.
