Back in Old Source in 2016, Hero was one of the best classes in the game. It was the best sed class (with high HP and power guard protecting you from 1/1), had the 4th best DPS, and was very good at zakum and HT. Almost every HT party had a Hero and it was easily the best melee class in the game. 4 years later however, Hero has the lowest DPS of all attacker classes except MM (and even lower than MM without strong atk pots/gear), classes like Shadowers or even NLs are better at sed, and there are a lot of new 1vs1 bosses where Hero isn't that good. Even at HT and Zak I think a Shad might be better than Hero in terms of damage. Their decline came due to a few reasons like the buffing of other melee classes, the removal of the Power Guard 1/1 bug, the popularity of HP washing (which makes classes like NL more tanky than warriors) and the release of many bosses that encourage 1vs1 damage (like toad, shao, neo tokyo etc) Heroes still have the advantage of being easy to play as well as being cheap, and good multi target damage though. Do you think Heroes are in a good position right now?
Heroes are fine. They're great in CWKPQ and Scarga, have good equipment options, and warrior shields were just buffed. Heroes never really declined, other classes just got buffed. They may be a little underwhelming compared to Dark Knights, but at least power guard provides some utility, and they're a very easy class to play.
I do think hero needs alittle tweaking, they’re not in a good spot right now, kinda similar to marksman. i’m not going to go into detail about how drk and hero should be balanced, but seems like Drk’s buff made hero looks alittle cute. Imo adjusting the combo charges into a undispellable buff would be a good change since they’re a class that is almost completely neglected in auf currently. This Buff would probably make it into subpar choice of an attacker class for that content. Nerfing rage attack buff bonus and allowing it to stack ontop with attack potion would make their popularity soar quite significantly.
Don't forget that the DPS chart from the Krex speed run is based on perfect conditions - a very strong att pot (gelt) + full buffs. How often do we get to boss under those perfect conditions if we include newbie attackers and middle-tier players? Krex is a unique brain-dead wall boss that provides near 0 mechanical challenges. If the battleground was somewhere else like HT, everything will change. Despite the dmg buff, I'm pretty certain a 1h sword + shield hero with guardian buff will deal more DPS than a Drk due to less knockbacks and stability.
Maybe make Enrage Stack? at lvl 30 its +26 atk for 240 seconds with a 6min cool down you could either lower the atk or raise the cool down?
With Hero being an easy-to-play class and easy to fund than most classes I am fine with where they are standing right now in terms of their DPS. Just my opinion, I don't like how an easy and chill class can give higher DPS than classes that need better funding or have higher risks in their playstyle, I find the other melees getting buffed more understanding as they have higher risk-reward and contribution than heroes. Sadly I don't have any suggestions to make heroes more desirable (?) but not that I or my party ever decline any hero on my runs before. I'm fine with them having around
It's confirmed. I'm whiting the legendary Spark95 in HT with my Flame Sword -------- On a serious note, I agree with @Jooon 's comment. Having Adv. Combo not be dispelled would be welcome addition. Here's what Heroes need in my opinion: Adv. Combo can't be dispelled Shout looked into to be a better skill Panic and Coma needs to be looked into. Their range sucks so bad...
For me, this is the key point,aside MMs wich since idk much about them i cant tell if theyre at better position rn or not,i really think that all jobs shouldnt be touch in terms of dmg deal positions(maybe some qol changes can be done), bcs everyone is going crazy with drks recent buff(like heros being nerfed bcs of that, i wonder why they didnt complain b4) when the reality is that it was just a little adjusment to have at least 1 reason to choose drks over heros, again my test were that pre buff a similar geared hero beated drk by 3% in cwkpq, and by 6% when duo client at HT, so to me things are balanced between the warrior classes. The real problem now is the content. Discussions about if this X oY boss worth doing or not, can be done and talked widely,but its a fact that mapleroyals have a ton of bosses, and beside zak, ht,cwkpq and scarga(if u can duo them, wich remember not everyone can)maybe we can count shao here, but as u know multitarget dmg is not really that important here, all the other bosses are single target, and yes those 3 zak+ht+cwkpq are pretty much as important as all other bosses in game, but even with that lets see at some little facts. ZAK arms hp=216m hp aprox body1 2 3 =274m hp this could be counted as "heavily favored to multitarget users" but multitarget users just hit at that 3 targets a little amount of time compared to be killing 2 and then 1 arm and later on the 3 bodies, so i would think taht having a multitarget user here is as good or a little bit better than having just strong single target ones. HT Cant calculate this by hp, but i will do it by time: in a 70 mins aprox(18 mins pre heads+52mins main body) run u will spend as a drk/hero 3-4 mins hitting 3 targets till legs die(not to count that ranged single targets just have to do 2-4 steps to be back at ur position meanwhile we waste at least 2-3 secods every single time we fell(aprox 3-5 times per min) then hitting 2 targets for another 2-3 mins and if and just if conditions are good enough(have a reliable sed mule+all cr mules have power stance+u can solo wings b4 head b is dead) then you can cross to C side* meanwhile the rest of the pt is in a-b side for another 16-17 mins hittin 3 parts, that makes multitarget users take advantage of their power 21-22 mins out of 70 hitting 3 parts and another 2-3 hitting 2, so the so called overpowered drks still deal 40% less dmg avrg than an equal funded nl at heads, with all of this you will still deal considerable less overall dmg than them... if you take this in consideration, the real problem is how the game is maked around single target power (P.D. i was making this comment last night as soon as u made this thread, but a blackout fked me,i marked a *for when i left writing, idk what i wanted to say last night LOL) Ive noticed that devs have made many changes and adjustments to jobs try to balance them, but sadly HP washing and the knowledge of certain mechanics will remain them unbalanced in favor of easy and strong single target dmg dealers, since no matter what they do, nls remain OP asf, they nerfed some things about nls to try make things better, i never liked that, nerf things is almost never the answer, and since theres a really high amount of nl players in this server another nerf on nl will hit US ALL nl and non nl users, so they should remain untouched. So, the next move for the sake of balance should be one of these 2: 1.-Buff every single job dmg by 10% except by nls and sairs(sair could be buffed in dmg by 5% making their advantage over nls a bit bigger) if this is done the dps chart positions will remain the same but, a bit closer to nls dmg meanwhile they remain the strongest..just not by THAT MUCH(pls dont quote this line, I KNOW this is not a good idea, and it has a lot of holes and consecuences, its not the same that i haved this idea to me liking it, I DONT LIKE THIS IDEA) 2.-Adjust content+add new content that rewards multi target users, i have made a thread about how good cwkpq is, just bcs it has an important place for almost everyone(sorry pally friends) i know this has consecuences also, but i think its needed, make zak hp 50%arms 50% bodies, reduce the hp of HT heads to increase arms/wings, twist auf haven raid to summon 2-3 mini aufs rushable and with much more mobility,CWKPQ2 using KoC as bosses, if Autoban comes b4 year 2050 and PB comes out make those little pbs having a lot of HP making rush and kill them multitarget role, idk things like that, wich make ppl "R-Last atackr, pref multitarget", now multitarget role should be encouraged IMO, and needless to say that this option is the one i preffer the most TL,DR dont buff the jobs anymore, encourage multitarget dmg from now on. heros dmg is great considering multitarget, and even compared to drks if theres muling, no SI or an small challenge they will STILL able to do more dmg than us, even the access to guardian can help them, want a realistic comparission? aside krex try SIless zak/HT, dunas v1(they will kick our asses here bcs its hard to hit from our tombstone) toad,BF, etc etc..... I have 3 friends that make drks these last months....haha theyre regretting hard, and 2 of them are now happy with their hero/pally+bish+cr at zak/HT so no, heros have not declined, its just that multitarget role is not as good...
Haha dont forget high tier ones: HT trio being able to bring my SI mule, "naah theres no room for ur mule and im not juggling it when it just benefits u"
I feel like as a hero I got nothing to offer to an HT party now. Drks have HB, op weapon def and got buffed recently, Pallies have Crash and after they got buffed they are just strong. Also, heroes armor cr is trash My suggestions: Buff armor crash https://royals.ms/forum/threads/mak...-strictly-worse-than-drks-power-crash.147474/ Make Enrage stackable and maybe make it a party skill. Not as rage- it has cd and can be a nice buff for an HT party.
I think the idea isn't bad but DrK and Pallies skill buff are both supportive. I think making enrage stackable and having it a party skill and also buffing armor can overshadow DrK and Paladin's skills for the party, considering HB can be optional since people normally wash too and who would pick free additional HP over free additional damage? Though if enrage did got approve of being stackable, I would request for Hex of Beholder to be stackable as well- Overall I think buffing armor crash alone won't be a bad idea.
Where did you get this 40% number? Even if you calculate from the krex 2nd eye tests, the gap is less than 30%, and should be even less on apple and less attack gear. My guess is that Drk single target is around 75% of NL single target under normal conditions. That means Drks do 225% of NL's dps when hitting 3 targets, and 150% of NL's dps when hitting 2 targets. From this, it's not hard to see that Drks do way more damage than NLs in HT main body (unless there are too many warriors of course). For simplicity, let's say you're only hitting 3 targets 1/4 of the time, 2 targets 1/4 of the time, and 1 target 1/2 of the time, that's still 225% * 1/4 + 150% * 1/4 + 75% * 1/2 = 131.25% of NL's damage. That's crazy strong if you ask me. For comparison, a 1 atk upgrade increases one's dps on apple by around 0.3-0.4%. If you really want to include preheads into the calculation, don't forget that people usually stopper or gizer at preheads, which makes the dps gap smaller. (NLs really aren't all that strong on gizer compared to other classes, but maybe stopper is the more common case for preheads.) Of course, the tradeoff is that it feels a little sad not to be a NL/sair in single target bosses, but that's what makes class choices interesting. HT is really one of the few cases where multitarget class truly shine through, and there's a reason why HT speed run attempts have a warrior instead of a full NL pt.
I think people are too fixated on the absolute single target ranking in perfect conditions. There's bound to be some class at the bottom of the ranking, but there should not be an endless cycle of buffing classes, just because they look bad in krex 2nd eye tests by lv200 attackers on gelt and 80 atk gear. In theory, classes with stronger multitarget or more crucial party buffs should naturally have less single target dps, so as to encourage interesting tradeoffs when picking classes. In that context, the current ordering feels imperfect but still pretty reasonable, with the gap between many classes close enough where gear improvements and player mechanics can actually tip the balance between who whites at a boss. I think multi-target classes, whether Hero or Drk, are still in a good spot given that HT is the most popular end-game boss (see my comment above on why multitarget is super strong at HT). If the general consensus is that Drk feels weak pre update 68, and Hero feels weak post update 68, maybe the solution is just to reduce the Drk buff a little so that both sides can be happy. Personally, I welcome the 5% buff to zerk as it helps establish the class identities of Drks vs Heros better, i.e. make them feel more like conceptually different classes, instead of just substitutes with easy and hard mechanics.
All my quotes aree being made with a friendly and relaxed voice, also any critic or commet its not towards u, more to general knowledge, also i do not petend to ofend or whatsoever: krex dps test are a merely reference, im one of the biggest defenders of "that thread is just a couple of friends trying them on 2nd eye of krex, it shouldnt be taken as a fact of actual dmg of jobs" yes, on weaker gears and using apple the diference is less,i agree that AT KREX 55wa gears drk(with SI)vs equally funded nl difference should be around 22-25% but that 40% difference at HT HEADS, comes from my experience because im including factors aditional to paper math. 1.-Reposicionate time and dmg lose bcs of that.- A.- knockback.- for melee users being knockbacked make them not to hit, so you have to stop hitting,losing at least 2 hits, 1 when being pushed, and another when reposicionate , carefully tho, bcs if ure too close to the edge at Head A you may fall and if ure too far u wont hit. Ranged ot the other hand, dont lose hits by being knockbacked. bms for example have to stop to reposicionate but they will still hit arrows when theyre being knockbacked, nls hit both when being pushed and when walk foward B.- fell when youre hitting heads.- theres no need to explain that it takes at least twice as time to go up again being a hero/drk than being a nightlord, not to count that ure being interrumpted way more, c side is quite cancer for us when we just need to hit just C bcs arm is alrdy on warning, it takes way more to repocicionate. C.- oposite to head A when u dont want to be too near the edge to hit porperly, head B needs u to be really close to the edge to hit properly 2.- stars follow target.- animation of heads going down make us hitting 0 targets for half second every once in a while meanwhile nls keep doing dmg to head b unless were hitting b meanwhile A is still up(wich btw is another advantage of heros, if you posicionate at b meanwhile A is still up, you can hit both every once in a while, drks can do taht too, but i only risk like that when theres TL there, otherwise is too much of a risk, heros can do it whenever) Animations argumanet dont take us dmg at arms/wings, but reposicionate does, so i would argue that at the start of the main body we do 65% dmgx3=195% dmg for 3 mins then doing 65%x2=130% for another 2(till tail is dead) then crossing for another 16 minutes of 65%x3=195% till wings are dead and by that arms are on warning alrdy, so from that point is 60% of dmg till the run is done 29 more mins avrg, lets count dmg at pre heads since both on sttopers at 75% for 15 mins Drks dmg=6830% for the whole run with SI witouth is 5805% Nls= 6500% Meaning that on this perfect conditions SI+being able to cross+cr mules with stance where pt does not care that much to rush wings we do 5% more overall dmg than nls and just withouth SI(wich is the more common situation) we do 10.8% less, if pt has a not that reliable sed target you will be not able to cross making the difference bigger, and if theres 3 cr mules where 2 of them are stanceless, the common meta is to rush wings, wich makes the difference even bigger, so instead of 130% is 105% AT BEST.Ofc i have to admit that having "similar fundings" is not accurate and its more commong having a 12k range drk or 11k range hero than having a 8k+nl wich could make the difference a bit bigger in favor of multitarget at lower att gears(50att or less) i dont think ill never get to 130% but definetely it can get a bit over 110% overall Now HT is a really special boss bcs mechanics are really important in the matter of killing it faster, so what ive witnessed is the following Pre v0.69 YES having 1 multitarget, specifically a hero will make a run faster than just having a full pt of nls witouth a doubt, if one of the atackers was a bucc, or you have someone pro at juggling and you have a SI mule, both drks and heros could do the same role post v0.69 is kind of the same, changing that heros and drks will do pretty much the same dmg with no si, but if theres SI drk would be better(wich again, i dont get how this shadow a hero, i mean drks are harder to manage you know? and i need more skills and an aditional buff to outshine you) but: in a 5 man the difference in time matter will be a little bit smaller in a 4 man IT MUST be SI for both to make heros/drk better other wise just nls will be better in a trio theres has to be SI just to match a run with 3 nls atacking, and in a duo, no matter what 2 nls are better than 1nl+1 drk/hero. debating this porperly would take to record several HT runs on diferent conditions and actual calculations will fell kind of like doing a tesis, tbh, it rather interesting and i love this debates(way better than drama at least XD) but with all this being said: i kind of agree with you here, zak and ht are the 2 most important bosses of the game and both benefit multitarget dmg, so "still unperfect, but reasonable" feels like the perfect definition,things aren that bad now, and if any hero feels weak compraed to drk, i will encourage to try drk, and u will say for shure : "ohhhhh i didnt knew this" and probably(like many of my firends) " ermmm, yes strong, but dont worth it" what im suggesting is, beside some qol changes(maybe aca undispellable and for shure buffing the range action of heros cr to match ours) heros per se dont need any buff, just a general encourage multitarget role, bcs it looks like all the new content is going to be made for single target users, making our niche smaller and smaller, if they do, its a benefit for us, and it doesnt harm anyone, f they dont, things arent that bad currently , again "kind of reasonable"
HT preheads are just krex left/right eyes reincarnated as dragons Jokes aside, as long as the party is in agreement of which atk pots to use, it doesn't always have to be the convention of stopper prehead + apple main body. Spoiler: tangent People don't seem to think like this, but if you work out the math, the [amount of extra mesos you save] / [amount of extra time you spend] by using stoppers instead of apples actually comes out to be pretty similar meso/hr to selling petri leech. For example, something that takes 10 minutes on apple probably takes a bit less than 12 minutes on stopper (say one's total clean atk = 180, then the ratio of total attack on stopper vs. apple is (180 + 60) / (180 + 100) < 10/12). In other words, you spend 2 extra minutes attacking but you save 5m of mesos (10m per apple vs. 5m per 12 stoppers), 5m/2 min = 150m/hr. I've done plenty of auf duos on stoppers and it felt pretty fine. Obviously, this math is less true for NLs because they have alchemist and scale better with high atk pots.
As someone who does plays Hero, I feel in terms of damage Heroes are in a good position. However it kind of feels bad being the only class that doesn't brings much to the table (archers SE, NL/Sair DPS, Buc SI, Pally CR, DrK HB, Shad can boom their mesos :*) ). I've always commented rage or enrage could be a great stackable party buff as it would make parties to desire at least one hero. It would not affect the dps meta as we are buffing everybody, maybe classes like Drk & Shad could be given less priority if this buff go through. The truth is ; Heroes may not be in decline because they are the most beginner friendly class, but just because we are an easy to play class doesn't mean we should not receive any love.
I think making Enrage a stackable party skill is exactly what Heroes need. Finally Heroes could also contribute to parties and Enrage would actually be a desired skill to have (in its current state it's just a gizer with cooldown...). With the right tweaks it could be a great addition to the overall gameplay. I really hope one of the GM's will take the initiative and truly consider the implementation of this suggestion.
I'm not sure how enrage works but aren't there risks of turning heroes into extra + wep att buff mules in bosses?
