Update on Soul Arrow

Hello everyone.

I am writing this post with regards to the current update royals implemented on Archers' Soul Arrow.

As it is right now, it consumes 200 arrows for a buff of 3mins and 20 seconds and it takes into consideration the WA boost from the arrows you have in your inventory.

I main a lvl200 Bowmaster and just from reading the patch notes in the office while I was working I got infuriated and curious as to how GMs thought this was a buff to BMs. I decided that I would just give it a try by going home tonight and test it out for all its worth.

Takeaway: The 10wa buff is nice on paper, especially to BM players who focus on min-maxing. However, I think the change could have been implemented better by considering the types of bm players that exist. I mean, if BMs needed to hold ammunition, it would be wiser to pick a class that had shadow partner, flash jump, alchemist, higher avoid, 30% increase in dps. Why play BM?

It is in my belief that most people who play bm dont really focus much on the dps aspect of the game. I mean why would they? They can achieve greater dps results just by making a NL/Sair/Bucc instead. In fact most bms I know play for the art of the class, the appreciation of always being wanted in parties, the idea of using a bow, the aesthetic equipment, the fact that they did not need to hold ammunition and can still count (barely) as an attacker in parties.

As such, I feel that the Soul Arrow update has greatly crippled many of our BM players on this server.

Pros of the update:
10 wa boost (250 range if you are 8k clean)

Cons of the update:
1/3 of the original Soul Arrow's buff duration (More time used in rebuffing, which no one likes, coupled with already having to buff so many other skills)
Have to travel further than NLs to restock ammunition (diamond arrows/red arrows), whilst having no Flash Jump
Loss of many player's original reason for making a BM
Lesser use inventory slots for hp and mp potions/attack pots/misc items
Becoming useless if you run out of arrows due to forgetting to rebuff soul arrow (Hurricane drains arrows insanely fast which leaves little room for human error)


I may have exaggerated the cons of the update because im biased but they are true to some extent no matter how you put it.

The grievance I have with this update is that the intention by the Staff is clearly for the better of the class, but the execution was done badly resulting in backlash.
We appreciate the fact that GMs/Staff are constantly looking for ways to improve balancing and to make dead classes more populated. However, this update only served to help already established BM players in min-maxing.

The update did not consider the inconvenience it would bring to casual players who just want to enjoy the game on a lower scale, do some mini-bosses for fun etc.
I am not going to ask for GMs/Staff to make a poll before implementing changes as thats clearly not going to happen. But it would have been nice if GMs gave us the option to decide if we wanted this change.

For the purposes of this thread, I will be comparing BMs with NLs as the change of Soul Arrow was mirrored to match that of Shadow Stars.

BMs do not have high avoidability like NLs so we actually use a lot more potions than our range counterpart. We think of our inventory slots as life-saving when it comes to holding potions. Having to hold ammunition now is even more crippling.

BMs do not have "alchemist" skill like NLs so our potions dont heal as much so we have to carry more.

BMs do not have the mobility of NLs (Flash Jump) and having to go all the way to Showa or Dead Man's Gorge (even further than where NLs restock) to buy arrows is absurd in my opinion.

BMs already have to endure issues like knock backs, having to re-buff SE because NLs FJ all over the place, re-casting phoenix during boss' CWA, re-buffing hamstring etc. Now we have to focus on re-buffing soul arrow as well or we're fked basically. Dont you think its too much to ask for a class like BMs who dont even come close to NLs in DPS comparison. The reason I stated DPS is because thats the only accurate analytics people are familiar with.

As such, I dont understand why Staff would nerf our Soul Arrow skill to match that of NL's Shadow Stars but fail to address the difference in skills as those listed above.

I considered asking for the change to be reverted but I figured that it would be ironic and selfish of me towards the players who min-max on a BM. Therefore I am coming up with a few suggestions which I hope the Staff could look into and consider implementing.

1)Give Archers flat 10wa gain in range, revert any archer changes to original. End of Story. (I mean if you really meant to buff Archers this should have been done in the first place). Enough with the terms and conditions.

2)Increase Soul Arrow duration back to its original 10 minutes. Although the inconvenience of having to hold arrows still exist, its bearable if we dont have to hold that many stacks.

3)Give us the option of still being able to use Soul Arrow without having arrows in our inventory, just without having any WA boost. However, this would mean an overall nerf as Soul Arrow's duration has been decreased by 2/3 its original duration.

4)Increase the stack of arrows from 2k to 10k.

5)Revert Soul Arrow to its original description, but allow it to be affected by the arrows we have in our inventory.


I've played Maplesea for the past 13-15 years I honestly cannot remember when I started and I always liked the idea of not having to carry ammunition for convenience purposes. Coming back to a server that was not screwed up (p2w) and had the pre-bb nostalgic feel really kept me hooked and I enjoyed playing BM again. However I believe today is a sad day for many of us as the update just takes a lot away from BM players like me.

Believe me when I say this, we appreciate the thought Staffs/GMs have in keeping us competitive. But in doing so, please do not make it at the expense of our QOL convenience.

Don't you think it would be counter-productive in releasing an update to keep BMs competitive but lose a huge portion of the BM population?

I lost friends today who shared the same nostalgic feeling of playing BM and they decided to move on to a different server. As much as I hate forcing my opinion, I think its necessary for a revised implementation of this update otherwise the server's population will fall even further.

I hope this server will consider casual players' way of enjoying the game.

 

Some points to add
1. @Dave Deviluke could this be moved to feedback section?

2.

regular arrows are available at all major pot stores

3. Archers have already received various buffs in flat attack gains recently. What's with the arclancer bows and mm receiving more attack through mastery. An unconditional soul arrow increasing watt also renders all arrows useless. We already have enough useless items in-game.

4. Otherwise, agree that old soul arrow mechanics should be restored to give archers a choice. Apart from increasing the capacity of arrows, cost of arrow should be reduced appropriately if this change is to occur.

 

Originally I play BM for fun, after reaching 4th job I found SE is popular so I continued, now I play not only for SE but also for dps, because why be a mule when you can be better.

I don't know how you calculate this range.
Bow range formula(max): [DEX * 3.4 + STR] * W.att / 100
You can sign in your STR and DEX to find how many range 1 W.att is for you, I believe it's way more than 25 at your stage.

Before this patch I usually carried 16 stacks arrows for 1 HT run, now I only need to carry 3 stacks, which means you only have to restock arrows every 5 HT runs, I don't find anything bad from it.

Now I do need more arrows while grinding but less arrows for bossing, afterall I think it's balanced.

BM can still press SE without arrows, how about NL?

Please give sort of respect to other attackers by using the +10atk arrows in boss runs.

 

perhaps you can start a poll (please use objective poll choices, as we all know wording may influence the results). I like the new changes personally but we are willing to listen to what others think

 

Why play any other class other then NL. i personally don't think this is a good start to a discussion.

Take a look at the pros and cons.

10wa to a BM is a very big buff, how much does an average player value 10wa, and how much end game potential this class gains with this simple buff?
I simply can't see how its only 250 range sorry.

For an entry-level BM, sure, 10wa might not seem a lot, but at an almost min-maxed end game BM perspective (63wa CGS + 145 DSB) a 10wa upgrade is easily 200bil value.
Comparing to NLs, this class is self sustainable, you don't need any mules to make it shine.

- Yes, this DPS buff is almost as good as berserk buff for drk.

And 3~4 stacks/horntail run..
"Lesser use inventory slots for hp and mp potions/attack pots/misc items"
Inventory management is a form of gameplay, and I don't really see a problem with you just heading into any nearby potion shop to recharge your arrows.
perhaps it's just poor game design from nexon back then, but lets be real here.
-
If you are comparing with NLs
Hurricane is fast yes, but triple throw isn't slow either.
hurricane = 120ms
Triple throw = 600ms

Fun fact, triple throw consume 1 star every 100ms, meanwhile, hurricane consume 1 arrow every 120ms.
The maximum stacks of arrows you can have / inventory is at 2000, meanwhile, NL is at 1000.

I'm pretty sure recharging stars are more expensive anyway.
Honestly instead of saying many players lose their original reason to make a BM, probably more players might play BM as a single attacker.

BMs has SE, a godly party buff.
Spinel is at all major towns and using a showa potion doesn't really take too long.
Once again, you only use 3-4 stacks of arrows per horntail.
One can argue to say, "make a hermit arrow recharge mule 5head."

BM does not come close to NLs in DPS comparison (oh boy you haven't seen BMs that whites every NL in a HT party lol), yet it's significantly easier for a BM to join a party compared to NL, especially after CR update.
is simply its supporting factor that NL does not provide.
As long as the BM has sufficient HP, it's usually alright, meanwhile, NL suffering through range check.

I don't see how re-buffing soul arrow which takes less than a third of a second will turn fuck BM over.

I think this change is okay
-

Shooting without arrow cost is simply,


Not arguing about alt tab fix no more showering during krex friends.
BM now is a single clienter class like corsair while MM is a multi clienter is what i'm surprised about lmao

 

While I agree that the DPS buff could have been implemented more cleanly, this point is somewhat silly. Before I had funds/bossing capability to easily obtain gizers on my Hero, I would always restock Ciders at DMG/Showa Town. It never felt like Showa/DMG was out of the way. In fact, if you regularly hunt Anego, Showa is literally right there. Spinel is in many towns.

 

Thanks for all your input.

I have explained my stance on this. I do not feel like any of the above comments are wrong in any way. I am also not denying that 10wa buff is welcomed. I am just saying a lot of bms like me are uncomfortable with the way the update gave the 10wa to us by taking something away from us at the same time on the preface of saying Archers needed this for a long time.

I do not doubt all your calculations. But the 10wa just gives me 250 range atm. I had 8009 clean range and now it boosted me to 8253 range. I dont really care about dps so the main purpose of this thread is to state how I and many others feel about the changes.

As I mentioned in the post, I respect that a there are players who play bm to min-max and as such I did not suggest reverting the change. I am just seeking an alternative that could accomodate everyone. If possible, why not? I am sure BMs who min max wouldnt want casual bm players who feel the same way I do to quit whilst they get a buff.

I read all the comments about how strong 10wa is for end game BM players and I do not doubt you all one bit. However, it still doesnt matter much to players like me who just want to enjoy little things like hurricaning in the free market or just protecting some people from getting sacked.

I see the replies of BMs not having trouble with the inventory slot. However, there are people out there who do have issue with it. For me, I am un anwashed bm who uses 3 pets for additional hp. As such I have to carry more pet food than others as pet food drains incredibly fast. I tried making a thread to increase the stack of pet food but got rejected on the grounds of having 3 pets outweigh the inconvenience of buying more pet food.

Im sure none of the comments above were from traders such as myself so they did not contemplate how little space they would have if they were to carry scrolls along with them.

Im not asking for a reverting of this change. I agree the buff is good. I just dont think taking away the soul in soul arrow is welcomed. Im sure all BMs would prefer the update more if they just buffed the arrows wa and let soul arrow inculcate the wa boost onto our arrows.

Additionally, @nany625 I dont think it is appropriate to say I do not respect my party by not using diamond arrows in boss runs. Just because we dont use diamond arrows does not mean we dont pull our own weight. Your argument is akin to telling NLs to use MTK otherwise they dont respect their party members. Thats just not fair. People above may not have trouble with inventory slots but believe me there are tons of BMs who do. I dont think its right to trivialise our difficulty simply because some people have no trouble doing so.

I join a ht run telling them my range when appled and I apple throughout with them. No one has asked me once if I ever used diamond arrows. How can you even propose that I do not respect my party members by not using diamond arrows. Thats just not fair.

 

If you don’t really care about dps. Will buying normal arrows from a potion shop not be alright? why should travelling to showa/dead man gorge be a problem?
Why should resupplying arrows be a problem..?
I can’t understand.
Not using arrows seems more like a problem.

Inventory managment is a form of game design.
The amount of pet food per stack is 200 and that itself can last you for easily 30hours of gameplay.
If you are a trader, i’d recommend building a lvl7 storage mule to further improve your QOL.

 

Just to reply on the part of rebuffing soul arrow fking bm over.

Its reduced from 10minutes to 3mins 20seconds. Do you think its possible for players who have been used to 10min buffs for years to be able to switch to buffing it to what it is now?

There is the possibility of us forgetting to rebuff and our arrows which we now have to hold would decrease incredibly fast. For people who struggle with inventory slots already, this would fk us over, especially since the buff is so frequent and we would have to do it 20 odd times during bossing, chances of human error are plenty

 

I said that to accomodate players who do min max. I dont make a thread solely because it inconveniences me.

Buying normal arrows from shops is what I do now. But the issue of inventory slots still remain for us

I have 5 storage mules at the moment and they are completely full. I also have 4 permit stores and 1 automatic store running all the time. I dont think its reasonable to make a storage mule everytime an update occurs, much less if the update mentioned that it did not appreciate the mule meta of BMs.

 

I personally don’t see why not.
A typical BM in the past have a good stockpile of red arrows before any boss runs, and simply run through stacks and stacks of arrows per run, now you only need 3-4.
Dispels in HT/AUF you name it.
i’m sure you are familiar with that bossing mechanic?
You’d have to rebuff anyway.

Removing meteor off marco which player used for years for their farm, removing pet looting summon killed drops is a problem.
Rebuffing soul arrow every 3min20s is not.

Its just seems ridiculous.

 

I understand that you are used to holding arrows in the past before this update. But believe it or not, theres actually a huge number of BMs who have always just relied on Soul Arrow without having to hold ammunition.

And just because you find no trouble with it or have difficulty understanding why does not take away the fact that it does inconvenience us now. I hope you can empathise with the players who do suffer from this QOL nerf

 

Soul arrow being a 2nd job skill is now currently buffed to work just like a 4th job skill. Shadow star.
This buff itself is already a godsent, and all the BMs who buys arrow!
You are now not contributing as much to mesos sink as much before.

QOL nerf, sure..? Idk i can’t see how rebuffing 1 soul arrow at 3min20s, understanding game timing mechanics and buying some arrows is as big as a problem.

What you are asking right now is a 2nd job skill that last 10minutes, able to shoot without arrow and benefit alongside with arrows?
Specifically only on this skill itself, how is that balanced?? Sorry. It just doesn’t make sense.

 

I dont think you are understanding what im asking for.

I did not ask for Soul Arrow to shoot without arrow and benefit along side arrows simultaneously.

I am asking for the option to choose either or. Meaning if BMs want the attack boost, consume 200 arrows.

If there isnt any arrows in inventory then still allow BMs to shoot arrows just with 0WA boost.

 

Could I ask what you have stored in your inventory that storing a column of arrows serves as a huge inconvenience? I don't main a BM nor have I ever played an actual BM but for me, I'm a NL with a whole column of stars, 2 columns of pots, and like another half a column of pet food and revitalizers for my 3 pets/hog. Shadow star lasts for only 120 secs and we only hold 1000 Furies/cilbis and so the rate at which we consume stars is much faster than the rate at which BMs consume arrows. I think that managing your inventory well is all part of playing the game and by utilizing mules to hold your other stuff, I don't think that there should be any problem with holding a set amount of arrows in your inventory. The only counterargument I could think to this is that NLs have higher avoid so they consume less pots, which is true yes, but I really do think it still is very manageable, it's just you're going to have to visit the pot shop more often but is that really that big of a hassle? I think that there are a multiple number of other problems that should have time invested into it rather than the problem of having to make frequent visits to the shop to replenish your potions/arrows.

Also, if you forget to press a button every 200 secs, then yes I feel that the consequence of rapidly going through your arrows is highly justified. After all, whenever you boss, it is implied that you are paying attention, right?

 

Give the option for archers to fire arrows with soul arrow without having arrows in USE slot, I think that'd be better (suggested before by someone else)

 

Yes of course when you boss it is implied that you are paying attention. But as I mentioned before, human error do occur and considering how we were used to 10min buffs, coupled with the number of times we have to buff it now, theres actually a lot of room for human error to not rebuff and just 1 instance of human error could cost you a lot of your arrows

Im a casual player so I carry a lot of misc items.

I carry nearest town scrolls for major cities

I trade often so I carry scrolls

I like to go around giving people "pure water" to remind them to hydrate

I keep transformation pots like the rainbow coloured shells so whenever I see people chillin I can make them laugh

I also carry all cure pots because some of my friends are not able to purchase acp on their own so having a good number of them allows me to provide them with acp wothout having to travel quite a distance

I apq often and sometimes our haste dcs or leaves so I sponsor the party with amorian baskets for apq bonus. These baskets come in stacks of 10 and if our haste dcs and never comes back in the first run that would mean I have to provide 20 baskets for the whole party. As such I always carry additional for such events.

I also keep different pots like reindeer milk, ice cream sundae and power elixers. Different pots for different situations for cost efficiency.

I hope this clarifies what my inventory slots hold.

 

Im suggesting a change which accomodates BM players who min max along with casual players who enjoy not holding ammunition.

Allowing Soul Arrow to shoot without consuming arrows if the inventory does not have any but with no boost in WA.

This allows min max players who want the wa boost to get the wa boost if they hold 10wa arrows.

This allows casual players who do not enjoy holding ammunition to still enjoy the game as they always did.

This also prevents the possibility of bm getting fked in boss runs when they forget to rebuff due to the change in buff duration.

 

Which is.. what i just shared.
Its simply too broken for a 2nd job skill.

Soul arrow Description:

Consumes 200 equipped arrows, allows an infinite number of arrow to be shot for a period of time. (10minutes)
If the arrows are used up, soul arrow allows the character to fire bow arrows without using any arrows. Only works with a bow in hand.

 

Half of it was originally the way Soul Arrow worked to begin with.

Right now the only difference it has is giving people the wa boost from the arrows they are holding by consuming 200 of said arrows.

It actually isnt a lot to ask for considering the GMs wanted this change and wanted to buff Archers in the name of Balance.