Sexism When Enforcing Rules Regarding "Sexist" Comments

Disclaimer: I type like a mean person; if this bothers you, don't read further. I am not friends with any of the people involved with the utterly retarded bans for saying "c word", not one person on either side. I have zero coin in the game. No emotional involvement whatsoever.

The enforcement of the rule regarding hate/vulgarity/obscenity/sexism on the word "c word" but not on the word dick is not only incorrect and unfair, but sexist in itself. I'll explain in the most simple way possible.

Here are the words as defined, they are not my definitions, and I am providing multiple sources of them to substantiate my claim further. The top definition is always "c word", the bottom always dick (they could easily get mixed up if not for the specificity regarding sex)


Lexico:



Cambridge:



Merriam-webster:



Oxford:



Dictionary.com:





One, "unacceptable, hateful, derogatory and sexist", punished via in-game and forum bans, warning points, post removal and shout box/discord bans. The other, comments hurling the word at people are left up to remain all over despite multiple staff views, comments, and some even liked by GMs themselves. Additionally, staff member(s) have gone as far as to say dick while at the same time having punished players for using the "c word".


They mean the same exact thing, only directed toward different sexes or their genitalia. To treat these words differently is by definition sexism in itself as female genitals are not any more offensive than those of a male, or vice versa. If one is sexist, hateful, vulgar, obscene, derogatory, etc. the other undeniably deserves the same label. Currently there is a verifiable difference in enforcement and overall treatment between the two words. Inconsistency would be phrasing it nicely, but the reality of it is that the rule isn't being enforced against dick at all, and the staff are using their personal opinions about the word(s) to determine their enforcement despite their personal opinions being incorrect by definition (as shown via multiple citations above).

What happens if I search for posts with "c word" in them? They don't exist, and I'm not even allowed to look:


What happens if I search for posts with dick in them? Oh, two pages, multiple quotes (potentially more as search doesn't bring up every result), GMs saying it, liking comments with it, and handfuls of players who have used it without repercussion despite staff observation:


I can only imagine how many players have said dick in-game without repercussions.

Realistic suggestion: Stop being unfair. Enforce your rules fairly and with consistency. That includes on your own staff members who use(d) that language or chose to ignore it being used by others.

Unrealistic suggestion: Quit being little bitches and let us talk however we want to talk. Also unban the dudes who got perma banned in-game for that petty nonsense holy fucking shit

Closing disclaimer (*~*mean words warning, hide your vaginas*~*): I don't see anything wrong with either word, don't view them as sexist and think that policing words like an uptight elementary school teacher is not only an unnecessary waste of time but flat out pathetic pussery. We don't need some stay at home nerd dictating our internet speech. When you're in line at the grocery store or sitting at a restaurant and some randall says "c word" to his friend, do they kick him out/ban him from the store? Do you go report him to management? No, you just go on with your day like a normal person and don't use the word yourself. You don't like what you hear, so what? It doesn't fucking do anything. It's one thing if it's threatening or there is a victim, and another when it's just used in ordinary speech/discussion. The latter has no reason to be restricted, not by me and not by you.

 

Yo this is a well-written feedback thread

 

The fact that the staff also allow certain individuals to create new characters to camp a specific channel in Free Market Entrance in order to spy targeted players does not help the whole situation: deliberately staying online waiting for a ban-worthy word to be typed in all-chat clearly show that the reporters themselves were never displeased by the so-called offense they are filing a report for (is not that supposed to be the whole reasoning behind reporting?), but were rather purposely using the T&C to get carefully chosen individuals banned.

I believe GMs should show more patience and exercise proper judgment under such circumstances before pulling the ban hammer, as it is most likely the same players reporting for the same reasons towards the same persons every single time.

 

To be perfectly clear, the ban for hate speech was not due to the use of the "c-word" alone without context. We don't ban for the "c-word" the same way we ban for the "f-word" or the "n-word" which is absolutely prohibited regardless of context. We do hold it to a stricter standard than "dick" largely due to the fact that people generally perceive it to be a more vulgar word and generally use it with more spiteful intent, but sexism is irrelevant to the determination. The word "pussy" is probably the more comparable example that I would consider relevant, which would be perceived at a more similar level of vulgarity with arguably more equivalent roots in sexism as "dick." And at the same time, we also recognize the fact that the "c-word" has different meanings among different communities (i.e. Aussies, or drag queens) that are often harmless so we do look at the full picture. As Chee mentioned in Don's ban appeal, it was the malicious use of the word in addition to the context in which further vulgarities were used that led to the ban.

All this genitalia-related fixation aside, the two words are ultimately not comparable to the same extent. And even notwithstanding their incomparability, the ban in question encompasses more than just the use of the word alone. I don't see this as an issue of inconsistency.

This is also not a very comparable example. Something more akin to this situation would be some randall calling you the "c-word" as you are in line at the grocery store. To which, yes, perhaps the management should be vigilant about those who are harassing other guests. You are entitled to your opinions about "pathetic pussery" or whatever, but I personally maintain that a PG-13 server that hopes to serve as diverse a population as possible should make an active effort in prohibiting players from hurling vulgarities and profanities at others.

As to the practice of players purposely sneaking around with the malicious intent of "catching" another player at a bannable moment--like I said before, I find this to be extremely petty and a waste of Staff time. But "don't be petty" isn't a rule that Staff can or even should enforce, and the best I can say is to encourage the community to perhaps mind their own damn business. On the other hand, this is also part of why Staff don't enforce harassment and hate speech rules as extensively in private chats. It's unfortunately not realistic to tell Staff to "exercise proper judgment" when the harassment in question had occurred specifically towards another player in a public area. Especially with all this talk about consistency and whatnot.

 

Genuinely curious because I think it's an important consideration in this argument, even though you may not be able to release this information.
Is the individual who reported the player for the ban the person who was targeted by this term? i.e. is he or she the one being called "the c-word" in this particular context?

I'm going to hold off commenting on the ban appeals for the moment because I don't know enough about the situation, however I agree with the message of consistency in the OP's post because fundamentally there isn't a difference between the two words. They are both vulgar representations of genitalia, and therefore have sexist connotation linked to them. Their perception by you or others on Staff is not relevant, and similarly the extent to which they are perceived to be offensive is irrelevant. Just because staff collectively think the "c-word" is less offensive than the "d-word" does not make that the truth.

It is sexist and prejudicial to consider vulgar synonyms of penis and vagina different in the extent to which they infer offence.

 

Of course it’s your duty to enforce the rules, and that’s why rules can be changed.

my vagina is highly offended by the fact the “c word” got 2 of my friends perma banned and more friends banned for 3 days for “profane language”

 

Just wondering but isnt this just stalking?

 

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to release that information, no. I can't say for sure, but I will say that if the person had said "dick" or "pussy" instead of the "c-word" they still most likely would've been banned for harassment. Which is why I'm trying to emphasize that the specifics of the "c-word" itself shouldn't necessarily be the focus here. As to your general point of how the word itself should be construed, societal perceptions of their offensiveness do matter. It's why profanities are called profanities. These words have specific connotative meanings beyond their etymological roots in relation to genitalia, and refusing to acknowledge such meanings makes no sense to me.

I think maybe a potentially productive conversation could be had around the procedures of how Staff navigates harassment reports--such as a two-sided mediation rather than a one-sided anonymized report. This may discourage pettiness and spite when all players involved are required to acknowledge the circumstances. I know there have been issues (as seen in the ban appeals) in the past where players crafted a very specific narrative in their report to get others banned when they were just as culpable. But as far as these specific cases go I'm not sure any changes to our collective perception, understanding, or what-have-you regarding the "c-word" would ultimately change the outcome.

and honey don is my precious idiot dongsaeng and my vagina is also offended

 

I do not condone using hate speech and believe that punishment should be meted out accordingly when people break the rules. However, when the rules are unclear and not enforced with consistency, certain individuals will use that as an excuse to weaponize the rules. It is unfair how one side is being punished more harshly for their actions, while issues stemming from the other side are unaddressed. A lot of these people claim to want to help improve and make the community better, but I don't think pulling innocent bystanders into their dispute is appropriate either. Is sneaking around deliberately waiting for specific individuals to slip up not considered harassment as well?

 

You are both wrong. The comparable example is when you are at a public park (FM) with your friends chatting, minding their own business, and one of the group's old acquaintance (the reporter) decided to stalk the group of friends in the park wearing some dark hoodie (unknown char hiding in the corner of FM) and recording them with a video camera (to obtain evidence) hiding behind a tree nearby. Then after the group has spoken the "c-word", the stalker decided to go to the police station (report abuse section) and submit a report. And then ........

Hmmmmmmm............

 

We may not reach consensus here but I would argue that the extent to which society finds these words offensive does not matter. The context these words are being used are in the form of slurs which infer derogatory connotation by how it’s used, i.e. targeting other individual(s).

e.g. one would not find “I’m fucked for this exam” offensive because although profane language is used, it isn’t being used as a slur against someone else.

When I look at a statement like “you’re a [c-word/d-word]”, I find it highly offensive not because of the exact word that is being used but because of the derogatory slur that is associated with these terms being used in that context. I don’t think it matters which word is being used here even if certain cultures and societies may have come to accept dick/pussy more casually than other profanities around.

This is in keeping with the point you’re trying to make in your earlier response where you mentioned that irrespective of which word is being used, or how you/Staff perceived it, the appealing individual would probably be banned for harassment. I will trust your judgment on this though the focus of the response Chee made in handling that report seemed to hone in very specifically on the specific use of the “c-word”.

I think it’s a colossal waste of staff’s time to be dealing with reports like these and although I would support your suggestion of mediating a 2-way response in these situations, it will unfortunately add to staff workload significantly and is unlikely to be ultimately productive. Obviously there have been cases where it’s made it necessary to include harassment into the TnCs with specific ban durations attached to them, but perhaps it’s worth considering what constitutes the unacceptable part of harassment - and from my perspective that would be the victimisation that comes with it rather than the specific language that individuals use.

 

Remember when everyone hated how corporations enforced censorship on swear words, which was only ever done to appease the soccer moms ("karens", if you'll excuse the hate speech) deathly afraid of their sons or daughters picking up these swear words and keeping them in their main vocabulary? Even if annoying, you can still kind of see where they're coming from, they only want what's best for their kids after all. Do the millenials banning swear words have the same excuse? No not really, it's all about your feelings and the power you have over others. If you're angry, you're given the tools to enact sweet revenge on another, fully endorsed by the staff who themselves want the rush you get for having that kind of power over the virtual lives of others.

As a result, for regular players, swear words are just an easy excuse with which to ban those you hate. You could rile someone the fuck "heck" up without ever using a single swear word, through clever use of sarcasm and satire, be as or more offensive than any swear word ever, and they'd never have a leg to ban you on. But you'd better do it on an alt that you'll never speak in all chat on ever again because you can be sure they'll stalk you to the ends of the earth to get that sweet justice. If you can't win with words, get them a permaban in an online video game as they say.

Hate speech, ie. attaching political connotations to swear words, either by the ones using the swear word, or by the one getting offended by it, is a whole nother can of worms that I'd like to not get into on a place like this. Some things are better left undiscussed. And to address the OP, I find it kind of ironic when I see the phrasing "don't be a dick" used in the same set of rules that try to define punishable speech (sounds orwellian as ***k), what would happen if it were to say "don't be a c**t" instead?

 

Is this really true? Because from what I have seen, context does not seem to matter. Multiple users were banned in CC18 FM last week for saying c*n* to each other in all chat. The reportee was an AFK mule in FM biding their time, waiting for the right opportunity.

Well then, shouldn't one particular user have a strike for hate speech (3 days) and harassment (3 days) if they said the c-and n-word on two separate occasions? not 3 then 7 days. Since the n-word is categorised under hate speech and the c-word is under harassment - two seperate ToS.

If you say the c-word isn't hate speech, but rather harassment, then people should be banned for harassment. Which is not what is happening. I don't understand how an AFK mule is allowed to report two friends for saying c*n* to each other and both friends get banned. Who was harassed in this situation? The spectator watching the two friends call each other c***?

 

Apologies in advance, the second reply might be slightly off tangent in regards to the actual discussion, but I feel a need to address it.

Personally, I feel that both suggestions are impractical. And yes, I know one of them already says unrealistic suggestion, but I'm just bringing it to the table to discuss for transparency. First off, the realistic suggestion, if we want to talk about consistency, it will mean adjusting retrospectively. For a time-consuming activity like this, will it do any good to the server in the future? For sure. But is it worth the time? Probably not. There are definitely better things to do with the time than to trace back and investigate these conversations/forum posts. Next, the unrealistic suggestion, I'd rather not go in-dept of what the negative spectrum of this could be. Also, unban players who got banned, be it temporary/perma is another retrospective adjustment. You have to unban many people from ages ago for this. It is time-consuming and doesn't improve the server in the future. There is a probability that it will even make the game more toxic.

My personal suggestion is that instead of adjusting retrospectively, adjusting prospectively will be better. Listing out prohibited words such as "a-word", "b-word", "c-word", and the list goes on for whatever kind of offensive words that you can think of is also unproductive. People will just find gray areas and abuse the system once again. My opinion on this is similar to how they handle RWT jokes, if you are unclear on whether you will get ban for it, simply just don't use them. These were the rules you agreed to when signing up anyway. Also, since reports/evidence submitted are private (for obvious reasons), all you should do is believe that staff do not take the evidence provided at prima facie, and try to understand the context.

On the topic of stalking/camping and the most recent bans
Many people stalk/camp hackers at popular maps including myself. If stalking/camping isn't allowed, how else will the community assist in catching the rule-breakers?
But obviously, there needs to be a limit set on how much stalking can be done. I won't even talk about camping, simply because the party getting camped can always choose to change a map, and if they do and the camper decides to follow, it will be considered stalking. Maybe a good start will be to discuss what forms of action should be considered stalking, and what is the appropriate punishment for stalking.

There might be the argument of:
"Sometimes people want to talk about personal things with another player" -- then use the whisper function.
"Sometimes people want to talk about personal things with 2 people" -- then use maple messenger
"Sometimes people want to talk about personal things with 3 or more people" -- then find somewhere secluded to talk about it, if the person continues to follow you, just warn him/her and tell them that you do not appreciate him/her following you around. If he/she continues to follow you around, simply just report him/her.

tl;dr just be mindful of what you type in all chat, peace.

 

"Sometimes people want to talk about personal things with 2 people" -- then use maple messenger - If you see people sit in a coffeeshop irl talking about stuff that are none of your business. would you listen? would you forward the info? if yes, thats creepy bro.
"Sometimes people want to talk about personal things with 3 or more people" -- then find somewhere secluded to talk about it, if the person continues to follow you, just warn him/her and tell them that you do not appreciate him/her following you around. If he/she continues to follow you around, simply just report him/her. Dude, we just wanna play the game why do we even need to worry about stalkers are you listening to yourself? why do I need to find new places and "schedule meetings" like wtf? I just wanna kill mushrooms and talk to my friends

Oh dear, You sound like the kind of people who tell girls: "If you don't want to get harassed don't wear cleavage"

 

Instead of throwing personal insults/ultimatum, maybe contributing to the actual discussion might be better. Jeez, I'm out.

 

Never had the intention to insult you, sorry if I did. Just mentioned my opinion over your statements above. and its not personal cause I dont know you lmao

 

No problem, all good.

 

Previous feedback threads regarding sexual and profane language worth looking at

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/regarding-the-new-rule.2837/

Good points and suggestions were made

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/adjustment-to-profanity-rule.1854/page-3

7 years on

 

Just giving my two cents,

If people knows about respect on each other, we dont need so many rules to restrict every player. But the community seems like lacking of mutual respect imo.