Class/Skill Improved MM Feedback Thread!

ahem!

also how is everyone feeling about the buff? I haven't been able to play since end of December, so I have no idea. Also my 166 MM was on mega hiatus and acting as just a se mule here and there, so I wouldn't really notice because I wasn't active enough to compare before/after.

curious how it's helped, and folks feelings, and if any new ideas have been swirling in your heads

 

Upon further thought and play time on my MM, I would like Pierce to be changed to just a plain CD (3~4 sec) with Max damage (no charge). I don't think distance requirement change is necessary if this goes through. Crit multiplier on pierce (multiplicative instead of additive) would also be nice but I'm not too sure how it's calculated. Just make it similar to how DrK's berserk works with SE compared to Hero's ACA.

 

An old idea for snipers, just for fun~

Spoiler: Prone Sniping

Or "prone shooting/aiming", was a simple concept for the sniper class. A 10/20 point passive skill (shaving 10 points off or replacing thrust--thats right, we're getting deliberate here) that allows snipers to use attacking skills while prone (keydown [down button]+attack). Damage of all attacks are increased, as well as avoidability while prone, but you will take more damage from all attacks when hit while in this position! Watch out!

• +10~15% extra damage to all skills and attacks (except summons) while prone aiming, or increases crit rates/acc instead of att%
• All useable skills while prone consume more MP than normal
• +10~15% increase to all incoming damage you take while prone, physical and magical! oof!
• Increases avoid a good chunk while prone, +50-75 points
• Can't cast buffs or PKB/dragon's breath while prone, except hero's will
• Increase to mortal blow's rates when prone
• Increase to blind's rates when prone
• Regular 'attack' still does the thwack animation. You will also thwack mobs that are too close, the same if standing, but you can't KB them prone
• Keeps you in "F1" face while prone
• Visual possibility: small maple leaves on ground slightly obscuring the player

Prone Sniping halves or replaces thrust for snipers to become more deliberate attackers at the cost of speed and risk of taking extra damage. Similar to battleship, the major drawback is the slight delay from attentive positioning into and out of PS position to avoid damage (or not), and rebuffing, and the extra damage dealt in the vulnerable position.
Gives the class an extra dimension of engagement, as well as distinction from rangers in third job

Other possible skill names: Aim, Ambush, Ambush Aiming, Bosshunter, Jungle Vision, Desperado, Deadeye, Guerilla Nest, Headhunter, Critical Hunt, Vital Hunt, Critical Scope, Wildeye, Wildscope, Critical Ambush, Crossbow Trap, etc, etc

...haha, unless

 

I am happy with Marksman being where they are now. Again, I don't play this class for the dmg potential (there isn't any due to our 'slow' strafe + crossbow speed). I play it for being an all-rounder with a great set of single and multi-target abilities, including a great party buff, at 4th job.

I am an archer main: I own a 17x BM and 15x MM.

Since the 100% Marksman Booster bug fix (buff), my range has become incredibly stable. The update shored up my minimum damage output a lot!

Future Buffs

For Damage: reduce cooldown on Snipe from 4 seconds to 3 or 2 seconds. This gives us the "ranged Paladin Blast" ability which ignores weapon cancel.

For Party Buff/Boss Debuff: Improve "blind" - Imagine using this skill on zakum

Old Blind:
Level 30: MP -36, for 180 secs, with success rate 40%, enemy's accuracy decreases by 30% for 15 secs

New Blind:
Level 30: MP -36, for 180 secs, with success rate 50%, enemy's accuracy decreases by 50% for 30 secs

For high level/end-game Marksman, Blind suddenly becomes a potential lifesaver at Auf Haven, Toad, and Yakuza Male Boss (including body guards).

 

if snipe cd reduced then mm damage scaling into endgame is worse bc more snipes <-> fewer strafes so less dps improvement per watt bc greater proportion of dps comes from fixed snipe not stat-dependent strafe. why use apple or invest in good gear if 60% of ur dps is fixed. also may change how si affect mm (right now si is very good for mm, allows for exactly 1 more strafe in between snipes). if snipe cd is reduced to only allow 3-4 strafe between snipes instead of 6-7 it’s difficult to know without testing if si will still provide a similar benefit to mm. a useful blind could b fun

 

My friend, I don't need to imagine. I've daydreamed this for years lol

My conditions are more strict however. We don't want SE/blind mule dual-ers (although I hear some thieves could use the avoid ).
IMO:

• Blind needs to be maxed to affect a boss mob. A mule with SE and max blind would be 140, not unheard of but still
• Only works at 1/3ish it's maxed level rates (-10% acc instead of -30%)
• And to really prevent mule abuse, I'd prefer if only you get the avoid benefits, not the party

This gives mm a conditional, built in avoid buff that would improve their dpm and reward those who use and invest in this sadly lacking skill. Remember that -10% acc doesn't equal +10% shifter. On zakum it would mean -25 acc (zak has 250 acc). What that means to your avoid though, I honestly dunno how to math that

Blinds base acc reduction being buffed to 50% would be much better than 30. Even using max blind with current -30%, it's hard to notice a difference. Even if it was 50%/3, that's only -16%, taking zaks acc down to 210.

Early blind is very unlikely, you have to max SE (130), snipe (140), mmb (150), mw10/20 (153/156), and have utility points in pierce, frostprey, & dragon's breath (154/157) at this point you'll want pierce pretty bad, or FP depending on your style, but this is the earliest you could start blind unless you have a mw20 mule, so you wouldn't get the boss boost until 160-167. But the avoid boost vs neo tokyo mobs would be great until maxed.

If it was a party skill I'm afraid it would ruin the class and be a mule, unless the avoid boost was fairly low.

But then we should compensate hamstring, and I just can't think of a good way, unless you just buff concentrate a bit more and add avoid on it, or give phoenix dot. Max hamstring slowing mobile bosses slightly would be fine with me personally, but it would be a party effect essentially

~~
Anyway I was thinking about pierce a bit more, and not wanting to rehash everything cause this thread is already a great read for pierce ideas, here's two fresh ones

• Pierce still charges like normal, same amount of time, but acts like chain lightning? Not super wild like CL but not 100% horizontal either/ has some bounce but still detects sequentially (doesn't go backwards)
• Pierce passively charges. So it's essentially on cd at all times but you can still fire it any time, but depending on how soon you use it again, will change it's damage. If you immediately fire another piercing arrow, no charge, lowest dmg, if you run and jump and pot and F5, assuming it's been 4 seconds or whatever the perfect charge time is (where you get the swirling gold light under the fully reeled back and loaded xbow graphic), then it's full dmg. This is better than it simply being on regular cd like snipe, because, like iron arrow, it's really nice to have if you need it, especially on mobs that don't freeze.

 

Worth noting that the proposed changes to pierce (as well as big bang), fixing the attack cancelling when damaged, firing in air, as well as while moving even, are indeed 100% possible

And blind/hamstring are just matters of unlfagging them from boss immunity.

Both skills could work at reduced rates, like 10% (1/3 as I originally proposed), as well as reduced durations. If anyone who has these skills knows, they don't last that long and require continuous attacking to proc both effects, making muling highly unlikely.

If staff is worried about muling, simply add a few qualifications to bossing, such as, skill must be 11, 15, 21 points or higher, or maxed, character must be equal or above the boss' level, or within x amount of levels to proc a boss.
If staff is worried about full party avoid, you can just formulate boss blind to boost the MM avoid to the identical acc reduction (this would all be much simpler than it sounds)

Also worth noting that it is indeed possible to change strafe or other skills once you have adv to 4th, or shared common skills during the same job, like drks achilles giving more dmg reduction, or strafe, such as MM strafe being 5 arrows, etc. Even if not outright, a single point in passive MMB would accomplish it as well

 

OP got a makeover, lots of edits and additional suggestions. enjoi

 

useful blind would b 2 fun

even though we did just see a huge server crashing formula change, so it is actually possible, and we now have HP quest, I removed these suggestions simply because focus+blind+concentrate would be easier and better overall for the classes imo.

 

lol, when i posted that, it really was the case. i still don't know the extent of how much they are capable of tweaking formulas (for example, in the last update, they were limited to changing the multiplier of the effect of luk on aboid only in 1/multiples of 2), but I'd guess it would still require bigger effort from a simple skill change. And i agree, in terms of hp, with the change to the hp quest to begin at lvl 120, i don't think there's a need for big hp changes

 

I was thinking about where drk vs hero is right now and i think the fundamental problem is they fit the same roll (rush,pin,hit 3 targets) i was wondering if mm gets buff will we just have the same thing where people will just shift to the stronger one

So i was thinking way not a simple change like strafe hits 2 targets? Could make mm super good in some places but not just outright beat bm all places if the buffs lead to mm being the stronger of the 2

 

Even if all my suggestion were somehow implemented, mm would still be weaker (unless they did the holy grail and implemented prone shooting), I'm not for any direct att buffs atm, and I don't even want mm to be better than bm, just better than it is (in fact the OP has a lot of indirect buffs for BM too)

Att buffs are what's causing the jagged upward power creep. Rounding out all the skills to not be so useless so that they all more than less holistically support the class goes a lot farther than flat dmg (and beyond, it refreshes and shines class identity), but it's not as easy I guess when you have one developer

Also hyperbody would like a word with you

 

I wouldn't mind if snipe was changed to %damage instead of a fixed value, as long as it maintained its ability to go through weapon cancel, as well as it ignoring monsters defense too. Like make it 2000% at max level or something along those lines.

 

I might not be totally against that, I'd need to see some examples of how it would look on paper, but likely makes early mm much weaker, and still leaves them in the same boat late game or whenever they cap.
Could open the door to lowered cd, but I think snipe and cd are pretty much fine where they are. autotarget from snipe would be just beautiful in lots of places (zak, ht, shao, dojo, pap, pianus, vergo, dunas2), but other things like overall dmg, late game boss dpm are what's mostly suppressing them (not their min. damage), which avoid from blind, snipe's autotarget focusing hits, and advanced mortal blow would increase beautifully

 

Reminder to share all your feedback about the update v71 marksman boost 100% mastery buff, how you feel about it, etc.

Also added a suggestion to snipe: shatter damage reflect (DR), or shatter DR and deal no damage to the boss when it is destroyed, but opens the boss back up to be damaged

(Although I strongly feel the blind buff is much better.
Legends straight ripped my blind buff idea off, the exact rates and restrictions to a tee. I originally posed the same buffs to blind a long time before they implemented it. Strange validation lol (hamstring also works on bosses, -20 speed at max on mobile bosses, pretty nice effect and payoff for your skill investment)
Worth mentioning that legends also did all the proposed basic fixes to pierce (less charge, no cancel, able to fire in air and while walking--along with big bang and monster magnet and grenade, all suggestions I made here long ago, and made summons right-clickable. All extremely simple but large QoL improvements that go far, but staff seems to spend a lot of time fighting with eachother here)

That's 2/3 of, IMO, the best non-intrusive changes the marksman class could get for overall improvement:

1. blind buff
2. pierce fix
3. and the third being snipe getting a short autotarget

 

Just so you know, confirmed Legends admins frequent the Royals feedback. Then make there game better, WAY BEFORE Royals does it. Not sure if they "take ideas" but I know they read this stuff because I had that conversation. Kudos to Legends. They're admin is on point.

Also, a very different client. So that may be the biggest difference. I believe there client is much more malleable than ours (speculation) but seems true.

 

I'm stoked either way lol, more than happy to provide help or inspiration in my free, public posts. Yeah their updates are sophisticated afffff

 

About the advanced mortal blow idea, MM really don't get any buffs in 4th job if you think about it. They get tools, though.

They get snipe, which is timed, fixed damage, that will be situational (non-constant). Excellent skill bossing or not, but eventually becomes obsolete in bossing dpm, therefore, invalidates itself on charts. So speaking in long-term terms, 170-200, technically stops counting (not outside bossing, but for the sake of this overall illustration and most end game MM, it would). If geared, your strafe range will outpace snipe one day. However if snipe had a short autotarget effect (I've said before 7-10 seconds, but a bit longer would be perfect, 20-30 seconds) this would help pull the strafe dpm up over time by concentrating strafe's on the boss. Snipe will always be viable during cancels though, so hell yeah.
They get SE, which will be a constant party buff. Nothing bad to say about it, it's a great, neon green comfort, but BM/mules have it too (that's not a bad thing but for this distinction it's important to note) But SE will automatically be part of any dpm test chart, archer/mule or not, and se is desperately needed to improve strafe damage. So while yes it is a major buff, it being such a universal party buff makes it a standard, required skill, that mules and bms also have too. To put it simply, even if MM didn't have SE, it would be in all their chart tests, like NL. This is only worth mentioning because they are the underdog archer class, BM is stronger, preferred, and much more common, and will likely be picked over MM if the party has the choice
And then all they get is MMB, which is
essentially to improve strafe. yes it improves you mastery and adds w.att, but strafe is your main attack (and this isn't a bad thing, I like strafe and I like that MM use it as a main attack), while snipe is fixed and eventually lapped (this is not a bad thing either btw, but it's also why I've suggested functions to snipe, like autotarget and other suggestions, to aid strafe. Snipe is still one of the best skills vs normal mobs, and hits through cancels). MMB is maxed 3rd after snipe+se, so you are roughly 150/152 now. Your early snipe advantage of your 14X has worn down now. Every other class has caught up with you, and MMB was your last buff.

No more of your skills, except MW which is also universal class buff, buffs you for the rest of your career. That's 50 levels+ post 200 career that you're just racking up dex and hopefully improving your gear. You got a desperately needed strafe buff (mmb), a party skill hundreds of mules are made for (se), and snipe--but it will one day be obsolete in charts. This is important to illustrate, and it's why approaching the class holistically is more rewarding (for balance, immersion and fun) and appropriate from a whole-class and balance POV, unless staff simply thinks buffing strafe/damage is all MM want/need.
Frostprey is "passive damage" but held back by elements, and BM also have a summon, it's not a chart factor (but nice for grinding if mobs are freezable)
Pierce is too wonky and conditional for aggressive boss usage to make it viable above your other 1v1 tools. It needs some vanilla retooling and testing.
Blind is pretty dang bad even vanilla, and does nothing currently for your boss dpm chart.
DB is ok for wyverns/zak spawns/shao clones/mavs, but so is freezing them, and other classes can push and freeze too, or outright obliterate them. Makes no impact on your bossing dpm.

So really nothing past 150--and more technically nothing but MMB (snipes obsolescence, SE'S ubiquity), long term--buffs MM for bossing. No other class has a third job skill (strafe) that eventually eclipses a 4th job skill (snipe) and almost every other bossing class has 4 primary maxed, or more, 4th job skills that structure their boss DPM skillset. So looking at all this it's especially negligent the class so often seen as "the worst" remains so underdeveloped still, especially when they need SI to even compete (and still lose), when falling asleep holding hurricane is still so much better in all conditions after all this time. You need to think like developers who's job it is to understand this classes identity and intended direction and balance that into the future where BB never happened, not like meta peacekeepers just because mm has a low population. But I do want to reiterate, all this said, MM still wouldn't need outright dmg buffs to improve them


The mortal blow buff specifically (or adv MB) suggestions, could be within MMB, giving MM an edge at the last 10~15% of a boss battle. This would give them a dpm spike, but not immediately on charts, so its still in (very fair, and restrained, if I may say, even with or w/o the presence of SI) balance with BM and the rest of your party dpm of the fight.

It could even just be a passive 10 or even 20 point skill added in 4th, that's not that wild of an addition (all other necessary skills could still be maxed). Or Advanced Mortal Blow could also be in MM's Sharp Eyes skill as well, packed in. Nevertheless it could also just be built into MMB, which is better because it's passive and is maxed last of the primary MM skills.
It could increase damage on near death bosses in a number of ways:

• 90/100% crit rate,
• increased crit damage,
• passive increased w.att,
• ignore w.def%,
• or some combo of these.
• Increases MP cost of strafe (amount TBD. it could greatly increase MP consumption, to be like the opposite of concentrate, which reduces MP cost), and/or all attacking skills (except snipe) on near-death bosses/mobs. It could also cost MP+HP

This still scales with range/gear over time, unlike snipe, and takes a concept already within the class to a new function to help the class where it needs it (somehow improved but balanced 1v1), and very much fits the class identity (slower, lethal, calculating, opportunistic). And again, it appearing late in the fight and chart keeps it from being OP and imbalanced for sure.

Again this is just one concept to help MM. It doesn't add any outright attack or dmg to skills, and keeps them understated and (literally) behind BM still, which is totally fine, but brings a good conditional buff and a DPM spike late in charts to boost them in a unique MM way.

 

buff snipe cd so you can strafe strafe snipe macro ;")

 

I would love this, my chat log would be a lot less scuffed from the CD message