In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

I like reading your comments, this seems really thought out and interesting. As a new low level Hero myself, I already see how many dead areas of the class there are. And I'm all for anything that discourages muling. I would vote in favor of continuing the conversation on these ideas, except for #4. I'm getting the client/programming limitations vibe with that one, but who knows. I'll have to remind myself to follow up on this once I'm at a higher level and can properly comment on the others with some more bossing experience under my belt.

I'll add, in terms of what I've thought about as far as rage goes, keeping in mind the value/programming burden ratio that is ever so important these days, what if we simply go ahead and keep it the way it is, add the stacking effect, but make its effect (+ATT) dependent on how much added bonus attack is coming from other ATT buff sources? Just typing it into chatgpt to visualize the general idea:

Spoiler

As attack from other bonus sources increases, Apples, stoppers, ciders, etc., the effect of Rage is reduced by some exponential factor. So, if the party is on an appo run, rage is hardly worth muling for (although it would no longer be detrimental to accidentally cast lol, and maybe adds a slight buff). A stopper run? Maybe worth, but nothing crazy. Gizer run? probably worth. etc.. My thinking is that it can at least keep the OG mechanic in the game to some useful degree..

 

Tyvm I appreciate you seeing the feedback as concepts rather than direct "do this" input.

I think devs just need to completely move away from enrage/w.att, similar to my concentrate feedback for bowmasters. It's does nothing for the class or party in the att pot mandatory meta, and there's much more interesting and valuable ways to approach hero, which is where I'm coming from

 

My wishlist for Marksman (ordered roughly by priority) (some are also general SE things):

• Endgame xbows don't require SI (increase their speed by 2)
• Snipe has a bit of scaling damage added onto the fixed damage
• Increase crit hit % by a lil bit to help us scale better
• Focus (first job skill) reworked to be a passive with avoid severely buffed OR made into a cooldown skill with a decent % miss chance for temporary period of time (or temporary stance? HSH-like effect? lots of options - the idea here is just give us some sort of defensive option since we have nothing!)
• Increased puppet duration
• Decrease charge-up time on piercing arrow by just a tiny bit
• Base hp and/or hp gain per APR increased? SE should not be more expensive to wash than thief
• Dragon Breath/PKB works on LHC mobs
• Cancellable birds

Please no:

• No multi bird summons, my eyes will bleed
• Do not remove charge-up from piercing arrow, it's fun
• Strafe+Snipe should always be relevant (and not macro-able), we are the fidgety class

Addressing other classes in relation to MM/SEs:

• Any new content should not be as bucc-centric as current content is, and/or buccs should have their single target damage slightly nerfed.
• The glitch causing shads to lose DPS from SE really needs to be fixed. If possible somehow, make it so that Shads actually need SE to hit the dps levels they're at now, and will dip below that without SE.

I know these last two might be unpopular, but I think the issue is that with the rise of shad+bucc meta, it's causing an identity crisis for SEs. Shads don't need SEs at all. Buccs barely need it and they've kinda stolen our spot in the meta as *the* support class, while also being a much better attacker (and also better at... everything else honestly). We're in a pretty bad state right now, with even the demand for SE weakening. And so are other classes, like warriors. I think you have to do something with buccs and shads to gently bring them back in line.

You can read this too if you feel like, it's a bit long:

Spoiler: Why is the SI thing so important and at the top of my list?

I feel like I need to talk about this more, since I'm the only one that seems to be really passionate about it.

SI is +15% dps for MM. That is the second highest reliance on a single buff of any class besides only NL (without getting into strange niche weapons). But the problem is that we also provide a buff ourselves that is heavily relied upon. So it becomes awkward, because we have synergy with NL parties, but NL parties don't need SI. So you're introducing a dependency that wouldn't be there otherwise. And if the party is full and push comes to shove, who is gonna be asked to go without a buff? The MM. Every time. This happens to me constantly. I either have to deal with -15% dps or haul a mule around just for myself. It contributes to that feeling of just always getting the short end of the stick somehow when playing as a MM

As a VL organizer, MM are a pain to plan parties around. Taking a MM instead of a BM means you can fit one less NL out of the 20 NLs that signed up, because now you need a bucc in that party. And now the party is a mixed party instead of pure ranged, so now the BS is gonna have a harder time doing their job because everyone is all spread out.

As a MM in VL, I often don't get SIed properly by the bucc. Because they're on top of boss and I'm standing way back, so when they SI it misses me unless they know to walk over to me first, and a lot of buccs lack this awareness. It's almost like the limited range of SI was designed for buffing other melees that would be next to you....? It's almost like MM requiring SI feels really unnatural....?

And don't even get me started on CWK CWK sucks for both archers, but the reason CWK is so much more painful for MM is because of SI. We can't afford to get dp, but it's so easy for it to happen. And it's the most tilting thing in the world to get dped and have to bug the bucc to walk over and rebuff you, only for it to happen again a second later. Removing the reliance on SI would make CWK so, so, so much better for us.

It would also help with RG, which is something we're not exactly the best at.

I could keep ranting about this but I'll stop here

 

Questions (maybe daft) for Marksman players regarding Snipe: What's the appeal for Snipe having any component of fixed damage? If the damage cap is raised (to 500k?), isn't it more important/wouldn't it be a better skill balance for Snipe to always improve your damage output (rewarding the active playstyle of weaving Snipe into a chain of Strafes)? If damage variance is the concern with changing Snipe to an insanely high damage skill (2500%+? idk), why not give it a custom minimum damage formula (like Lucky Seven) which provides a higher minimum damage than the default formula with even 100% mastery (Marksman Boost)? Alternately, it could output a fixed scaled damage (i.e. minimum damage equal to maximum damage; not sure if this is possible).

 

That sounds like it could work too! I guess personally I'm less concerned about how exactly it's implemented and more so the end result. I think the 3 points I want to see covered are:

1. Snipe should always feel worth using at any funding level, even with auf helms and 60+ cgs, and mw30 if it comes out one day
2. Snipe should be a big flashy number on one line
3. Snipe should always hit really hard even at lvl 120 with 1 stat point in it and very poor funding.

Balancing point 1 against point 3 is key. I think point 3 is important to me because I remember when I first unlocked the skill and I walked out of sleepywood and used it on a horny mushroom. I couldn't believe my eyes. I felt like I broke the game. That really stuck with me. So I think I want to preserve that experience for new MMs too

EDIT: I found the SS of that exact moment for me LOL :

Spoiler: baby's first snipe :')

 

im just praying that in the upcoming skill balance change, they don't make zerking easier or change it completely like what our neighbor p-server has done.

 

What about giving snipe a similar effect to Corsair’s egg. Puts a debuff on the boss with short duration so you’ll have to keep spamming snipes.The debuff could be increasing critical rate on the debuffed mob or increase damage just like egg. The debuff only works for the marksman.

 

I read back a few pages and see that your point 3 seems to be the main opposing argument for a Snipe that strictly scales (e.g. @whitemagejames comment). I definitely think it's important to preserve nostalgic class identity features.

Here's an attempted solution:

Snipe strictly scales (again, something like 2500%) and does this damage at skill level 1. For higher skill levels, the cooldown decreases but the damage doesn't increase. (This is how the skill currently works, but with fixed damage.)

The only people that lose here are Marksman players with no range (e.g. bloodwashed SE mules, characters with AP temporarily in INT/MP). (But should skill balancing changes be designed to specifically cater to these kinds of characters..?)

omg baby angler

That would be nice too (and obviously this class needs more attention than just a Snipe damage rework).

Or maybe it grants you, and only you, a Total Crash effect lasting 4 seconds (maybe even a 100% hit rate, completely nullifying Weapon Cancel for this class). That would pair thematically with Snipe's ability to hit through Weapon Cancel, and would further reward players for using it efficiently.

 

No joke I have suggested giving snipe autotarget effect for years here, without any bullseye/damage boost. That alone would improve MM 1v1 dpm. I've stopped suggesting it because nobody seems interested and just replies with "give strafe 5 lines lol"

I'll repeat about snipe and save the inside baseball, the best method for all players, funded or not is snipe at lvl 1, funded or not, does 199k. Then, if your range rolls over a certain threshold (to be determined), it can go higher.

However, this punches down on unfunded folks, and your snipe can't scale. So without range, I think snipe could still improve based on your level vs the boss level, or your accuracy stat, because both of these things scale to 200. So both range, and lvl/accuracy, can improve snipe damage

It's the simplest way, and the best approach for all stripes of players, and scaling, while keeping the skill exactly as intended

 

I have a different idea for MM.

(1)
I think BM is the se for range team, and MM is the se for melee team by some reasons:
--->BM is good at single target when MM is good at multi target
--->BM/NL don't need SI, when MM/DK need SI

Therefore, I think if we want to distinguish the class feature and buff MM, we can do the following things
--->buff DK, make hero/pally got more benefit from se...
--->make some bucc skill to get more se benefit from se (bucc have good dmg now --> buff some non-primary skills to get more dmg with se)
--->other buff to MM

(2)
I remember snipe is like [strafe+snipe](4x125% + 1x dmg cape) in a version.
I think it's a feasible approach that copy 1 strafe to snipe and add cooldown to 5~7sec
---> or do this adjust at snipe40/50/60 after pink bean skillbook

 

I'll give my thoughts @Cooler

I do think a great way to buff Hero's damage output with Enrage is the idea of Ignoring Enemy Def (IED on other server). IED was nice on Shadower there as the damage boost was very noticeable but the way to use it was weird at times. If IED was placed on Enrage then 1) Staff wouldn't have to bother changing buffs around too much to give Heroes more attack damage and 2) Heroes could see and feel the impact of IED

---

Hero mains would probably prefer more meaningful changes than "Remove/ignore Damage Reflect" or "Reducing Heals". The bosses that do DR are very few and Heroes don't bother running them. Reducing heals wouldn't feel impactful enough for players to bother using it. Your idea of ignoring Defense is better than these two suggestions.

------

Let me summarize on things that could make the Hero subclass better overall:

- Give all Warriors Total Crash as a Class Party Utility (akin to how BM/MM have SE as their Class Party Utility | Paladin will retain a stronger version of Total Crash though)
- Make Heroes have the identity of being the best mobber of the three Warriors and only slightly boost their single target damage. (Single target should be Paladin >>> Drk > Hero but multi target Hero >>> Drk > Paladin)
- Changing how Combo Orbs work by:

1. giving Heroes their full damage on buff activation rather than how many orbs you have
2. Combo attack lasts longer from 3mins to 10mins
3. Make their Combo skills be stronger
4. give Heroes bonus weapon mastery on skill rank up to additional 10/15%

- Make Brandish have slightly better damage (do NOT use the idea of making us weave single target attacks with Panic; would rather be nice and simple with Brandish as we endured til 4th job to use Brandish)
- Make Coma have very good AoE with full orbs: bigger range, scaling, multiple lines to scale with SE buff, etc (should be like Dawn Warrior's Soul Driver)
- Make Shout have a cooldown but bigger range, more damage, and no longer stuns but buffs mobs with Speed to attract them towards you. This will make this a nice grinding skill. Optional to make it consume orbs for its damage output
- Panic, I agree with Cooler's idea of a debuff to the targets but I'd like to see it turned into a mini-Rush that debuffs multiple targets rather than only one.
- Enrage changed to Ignore Enemy Defense so we can get the damage output increase without jeopardizing our Attack Buff (i.e. Apple) and Yeehaw won't have to strain his hands reworking the Buff system

 

After running CWKPQ with my lv 165 Marksman, I found that MM struggles significantly in the boss stage against the Pirate. The Pirate's long-range attacks constantly knockback me, forcing me to reposition every few seconds, even when using Blind (lv15) + Heart Stopper (+60 Avoidability).

I attempted to place Puppet directly below the Pirate to draw aggro, but this only worked 1-2 times and often put me at risk of getting dispelled (losing SI and MW). Later, I tried placing Puppet in front of the Pirate to reduce the frequency of long-range attacks. However, this caused another issue—when the Pirate used melee attacks against Puppet, he frequently performed an airborne attack animation, making some of my Strafe miss entirely.

Additionally, Puppet's low HP and short duration (requiring re-summoning every minute) made the gameplay frustrating. Watching the NL next to me dealing nearly twice my damage to Margana made me feel like I don't want to run CWKPQ with MM again anytime soon.

Compared to Night Lords, who are also ranged attackers, BM/MM suffer much more from knockback, severely impacting our damage output. If this were justified by having top-tier DPM among all classes, it would be understandable, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Currently:

• Warriors and Bucc have Stance.
• Thieves have high avoidability.
• I'm unsure if Corsairs face the same issue, but given that their theoretical DPM is among the highest, they might only need minor adjustments.
• BM/MM seem to be the most affected by this issue.

To address this frustrating problem, I propose a tweak to Puppet:

• Keep its original effect.
• While Puppet is active, grant BM/MM an additional Avoidability boost. This could be a flat numerical increase, but it might still face the same issue of being overridden by other buffs? Alternatively, it could work like Thieves ability to completely avoid enemy attacks, but doing so would take away the uniqueness of different classes...

I hope the adjustment aligns with Puppet's original design concept while also addressing the issue of it becoming completely ineffective against bosses with AoE attacks.

 

I don’t think you’re puppeting correctly. It often switches aggro to the other attacker (NL in your case) so you may need to use multiple puppets at the bottom for it to aggro on the puppet, it happens to all archers. Also the mage boss has 200m hp and pirate has 240m but of course, NL has to be stronger than MM since 1v1 dmg (and haste) is all they have and you have a very strong party support buff. You’re basically comparing the top dps class at its absolute strongest scenario (barely getting hit) to a MM that’s having trouble trying to get puppet to work.
Puppet is very strong on bosses that actually works with it, you get a whole minute of no damage to yourself.

 

So you mean I need to cast Puppets multiple times to attract its aggro?
Also, "Puppet is very strong on bosses that actually work with it"— Does this implies that Puppet is completely useless against certain bosses?

From my perspective, I prefer this skill to have varying degrees of usefulness across different scenarios rather than being either 100% effective or completely useless. Because archers will encounter the same issue in other situations, not just CWKPQ.
I also believe that any actively playing player would want to do more than just "provide a powerful buff."

Edit:
LOL... I just realized that more than a year ago, many was discussing the same issue.
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/cwkpq-improvements-for-archers.219626/#post-1312198
Seems like all BM/MM players have similar feelings.
Anyway, here's my feedback to the knockback issue archers face in CWKPQ, and I hope more archer mains can share their ideas (or any tips to improve the knockback issue).

 

yes you may need to recast puppet, I’m not sure if the archer cwk guide videos has been taken down by Daizunda but look around for one.
Puppet technically works against all bosses, but the way certain bosses work just doesn’t go well with puppet, eg Zakum having spread out multiple body parts and the map size being limited so if it aggros puppet, it hits you anyways.

 

BM can slow the pirate, so it's easy to set puppet at any condition.
MM's problem is our teammate have to focus on pirate's hit box to help MM set puppet well.
--->I seldom set puppet well with NL, but it's easy with shad/pally/bucc top-att
--->some pro NLs will go more left when they see shark from pirate, so I can set puppet well.

 

Paladin: make acb have a fixed range;

Uncap blast damage;

Change the elemental weakness of zak arms like ice,ice,fire,fire, Holy,Holy,lighting,lighting

Either make all monsters weak to some element or change charges to deal more base damage and less bonus so we can 100% out put on neutral monsters and something like 110% o elemental weak. Atm we do half damage on neutrals..
Beside neutrals damage is ok no need to buff.

Heros:Buff its damage for real my pally do 50k more damage using same gear.

if you want give hero utility and cant make atk on rage stack make enrage give a %damage to the whole party like echo for around 5 min with 5 min cooldown.
If no utility just give enrage a huge damage bonus for some minutes.

Make coma worth using with 10 orbs.

Marksman: i am no MM expert but wont snipe work as final atk with strafe good?


General: you know when you buff on a rope and its way faster? Make it while you stand too.

 

as long as u have me in your pt ill always have your back with my si

 

Spoiler: off topic

keeping blind on him is smoother than fumbling with puppet imo, especially with SI. easy to melt him w/o any dispels or chases using blind than setting up puppet and pushing him back hoping he doesn't dispel you and the NL and repeat every time puppet fades.

Smoother for the NL, even more misses, and the sooner the NL can go into autopilot and not rebuff from dp or have his bs rebuff, the better for everyone

 

make SE give its caster 100% crit rate cause bms and mms deserve a buff