In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

Hot take: Mages don't need to be good at bossing. No other class levels as fast as they do (FP is especially fast post level 80), they're able to make insane amounts of money with leeching too.

They're a niche class. That's a good thing. You have DPS bossing classes that suck ass at grinding and leveling- are we making everyone good at grinding with mass multi mob damaging skills to compensate?

 

agreed to all except can we have one skill (maybe dragon’s breath) which affects mobs but not boss mobs? I need it to solo shao i.e push shao clones away and puppet while i kill shao.

 

Hello Evan

1. Mages don't need to be good at bossing. No other class levels as fast as they do (FP is especially fast post level 80) ???

>>> Even though Leveling pre 4th job and even 4th job mages doesn't seem to be that big of the aspect for me, what about FP before level 80? what about IL 3rd job ? Isn't Shad 3rd job fast too ?. And on 4th jobs nowadays non-mage classes also have many very fast leveling options like Shao, LHC, even some other bosses.

2. they're able to make insane amounts of money with leeching too. ???

>>> Most of Leeching arch mages can do bishops can do.
>>> Attacker classes can sell services that can earn a lot of money too, even though might not be on the same level as skele Leeching.
>>> Some attacker classes can do RG pretty well, probably even better than arch mages, that can gain 200m+/hr equivatent of profit.
>>> For single content mage faming, they only make like 50m/hr mesos, I am sure attacker classes can make more money than that rate.

I have stated in your quoted comment that even increasing DPS for mages by a lot, they still have elemental limitations, Bosses that they can do well with their element is probably less than 50% of the bosses. That's a trade of for their very-good 10+target mobbing skill. Were you aware of this point that I had already stated ?

 

1) Poison allows FP mages to kill much higher level enemies than they normally would be able to- this works 30+ but mist is much much much faster.
2) So you want them (mages) to be the best grinders by a margin SO wide- and also be good at a lot of bosses but not all of them because of elemental weaknesses? Funny thing is this isn't even a new argument- one of the old Staff members unironically wanted to make CL stronger than or equal to paralyze because they were slightly worse for bossing ignoring the fact that CL is multi target. If people want to boss they should play a bossing class. For games like maple to survive you NEED this sort of diversity and class identity.

Go boss on your mage if you want to- don't throw the meta of the entire game off because you're trying to shove a square block into a round hole. If you're that sold on it- go become the best mage the game has ever seen- break the mold. Nothing is stopping you besides the fact that people won't invite you- I mean heck- people will spend billions to wash instead of bringing a DrK for HB it's that big of a deal to people who boss regularly lmao.

Also honorable mention, in what universe is only 50mil/hr bad. You really think a hero is out there selling leech for 50mil/hr + all the drops they can sell? I'm not talking about bossing- since there's a cap on that. (is BF leech still a thing? Don't know- doesn't matter- when people say they're selling leech they're almost universally talking about ulu, skeles, etc).

 

Hello Evan

As we are discussing under the thread " [ Feedback Request ] Skill changes and Balancing "
Right or Wrong, ultimately, this is for the sake of better community.

There are some points I think it's worthwhile to reply

1. you NEED this sort of diversity and class identity ???
> Most things arch mages can do Bishops can do. Is this the diversity and class identity ?

2. About old school nostalgic identity of this game ?
> If there is a concern about this issue, I understand this perspective. Well... , in more-than-10-year-old Youtube videos of old school Maplestory, I think there are some that has arch mages in bossing like in HT, THE BOSS, and probably other bosses. This would help ?

 

I mean...... yeah all 3 of the mage sub classes are mages? Mages are different from warriors and bowman.

What exactly is the point you're making? Yes I think mages should play differently from warriors, bowman, rogues, and pirates.

 

Mages have about 25% as much DPS as the worst non-mage attacking classes (going off krexel DPS comparison thread). However, I would estimate that most non-mage attacking classes are more than 25% as effective as a mage when it comes to mob grinding. The ass that DPS classes suck at mob grinding isn't even remotely comparable to the ass that mages suck at bossing.

I agree that mages don't need to be GOOD at bossing, but a highly-funded mage should be able to outDPS a poorly-funded meme version of an attacker class (like non-zerking DK or paladin hitting elemental resistance). They can still be bad, but they don't have to be as catastrophically bad as they are now. And I think they will be bad even if their DPS is increased to average levels, because they also have to worry about MG being dispelled.

Also, here's my hot take: making mages *acceptable* for bossing as a sort of last-resort DPS will actually be healthy for the server, because the time that a mage spends bossing is time that they aren't spending on mob grinding and printing raw meso.

 

if an extremely funded mage should be able to outdps a poorly funded meme version of an attacker class, should an extremely funded attacker class like NL/Shad or even BM be able to have better mobbing abilities than a poorly funded meme version of a mage?

im sure you can see how that logic doesnt hold weight.


Try doing ulu maps with arrow rain and tell me if its 25% as good as genesis/blizzard/meteor shower

 

Mages have a class identity- they are not incapable of bossing. There is no reason to make them better- no one will make a bossing mage- bossing parties won't bring them the same way they don't bring a DrK for HB.

Unless you plan to give the slowest leveling classes a significant boost in terms of grinding speed to compensate (which is an equally stupid idea) it's just a bad faith arguement to have mages be good bossers when they are BY FAR the best grinders and have other unique perks like the ability to sell leech for good money.

The best thing we can do for the longevity of the game is every class sucking in it's own way. Once you start pushing one class to be good at everything- if not the tippity top of some things as well- well why would anyone play any other class. There's SO many examples of how this destroys games- OG maple being the best- besides flavor text and a few unique class skills everyones jumping around at max speed with max range killing shit.

 

Yes, it should, and if it were that simple, it would. The problem is that a mage is very hard to mess up with most of its power coming from base stats and SP and not that much from gear, so it is impossible to achieve this without changing the magic damage formula. But if you ask me whether a character with hundreds of billions of funds should completely outclass a character with less than 100m funds for both mobbing and bossing, regardless of class, I'm going to say yes and I don't see the problem with that.

Of course, the Pandora's box has already been opened with mage ultimates being grossly overpowered for mob farming and the meta having adapted to that for an entire decade. Should mage ultimates have been this overpowered to begin with? No, but the damage is done and there is no reversing this. I am not going to propose that NL and BM should have their mobbing ability increased to match lv1 genesis from a naked lv120 bishop, but I do think that poorly-funded mages should be made worse.

That is true. No one will make a bossing mage unless their DPS is buffed way beyond what is reasonable. However, making mages simply "the worst bossing class" and not "the worst bossing class by an insane margin" would benefit people who are playing for nostalgia and made mages as their first character simply because they played mage in old school GMS, without knowing that mages are a pure farming class that are never chosen as a main and actively get worse at moneymaking for every level-up past 140. I want to tell these people "you can still contribute some DPS during runs with guildmates if you're highly funded and hitting elemental weakness" and not "your DPS is so embarrassing that people will tell you to not even bother attacking". Do you think they'll be happy to hear that the character that they made as a main can't do 99% of endgame content but they'll get to sell leech and telecast for the rest of their entire life? No! I understand that we shouldn't make every class excel at everything, but there is a minimum expectation for how bad a class can be at something, and mages are well below that expectation.

 

poorly funded mages being made worse is an interesting idea. Do you mean like making the aoe range of skills like genesis/meteor shower/blizzard smaller if they have lesser tma? Of course with a cap to how much aoe they can reach if they do fund it.

 

Hot take: I think every class should have a reasonable endgame and therefore be worth funding to endgame (including auf)

 

Hello

<sorry for limited English capability>

*** Mages are best at mobbing by far ???
> I think that's not always true. In facts there are many maps, situations that attacker classes can do better at mobbing than mages (no multi-client ). For examples, Silver-mane-etc map where shad can do better than mages, a big map like TOT probably, when clearing Gargoyles or even Golems in VL where Shads Buccs can do better.

If we don't give arch mages (some) bossing content, especially end game content, it's hard to find any other meaningful content for them besides selling leech, multi-mage farm.

 

Greetings, flagless sair here
Usually I don't write my thoughts out on the forums, but I do have some personal experience to write down regarding the "buff mage bossing" idea. Gonna preface that I'm INCREDIBLY casual and I don't look at balance that deeply (like down to calculations). I simply like playing.

I do have a story for this exact hot take!

I have a friend who I met during Lv. 119 who was an I/L mage. Both of us are very casual and single clienters. Me and him grinded and ended up going through early 4th job together (think Papulatus and Chao).
While me, a Corsair, was finally reaping the rewards of my painful grind (bossing), my I/L friend found themselves in a loop of "I'm here now... what next?". They ended up grinding for like 2ish months, literally doing nothing but farming for his only character.

There was a day where I decided to bring him for Papulatus for fun, cause I wanted to do it with someone else (early 4th job), and Pap is weak to electric.
He had the time of his life. He said it was the most enjoyable thing he did on mage, and was glad there was an opportunity to use lesser-used skills (1v1) on a mage.
This actually ended with him attempting to solo Pap multiple times for the next week. It was really cute.

Unfortunately, the reality set in - mages really just don't justify the 1v1 aspect at all, they simply do too little. Literally no one else would give him the opportunity to boss, other than me, a person who was open minded and wasn't worried about time consumption.

He went back to farming after the week, and eventually told my guild he's officially going on hiatus as there was really no more goals he could accomplish.
As a single clienter there was little reason for him to continue, and making a new character meant doing it the lazy way (leeching) which means... playing even more mage. And then abandoning the mage after he hits boss levels.
​

Now, I'm not saying that mage should be uber buffed for bossing! Absolutely not! Keep them a farmer first and foremost!
But I feel like slight buffs will do enough to at least justify the existence of their 1v1 skills.

What comes to mind is my experience with how axe Heroes and BW Paladins are seen by most bossing players (not the extremely funded, but the average person).
People would see them using less efficient weapons, but the efficiency is not so terrible that it warrants saying "no we don't want you".
They're still a Warrior. They can do decent damage. It's enough to consider to be taken into the party. Mages really are a default "No, you can't even".

Some slight damage buffs to up mage to a better bossing outlook ("Okay, I'll consider you cause you are the only other option") would be nice.
(This is also how I feel about Polearms, where I'd like them to be buffed up to axe equivalents, but that's another story.)

Of course I don't have any actual say in upcoming balance, but I just wanted to give my two cents. Not trying to argue with anyone either, just giving some perspective hopefully.

 

To summarize my ideas on mages :

1. +50% single target dps on Paralyze and CL
2. Carefully adjust dps of 2-6 targets on CL
3. +50% dps on Angel Ray ( not 20-30% anymore to be fair for Bishop )

The number 50% can be adjusted. It might be 80% or 100%.
I am imagining Arch mages to have around the same 1-target DPS as Shad, Bucc, BM, and highly funded Bishop to reach 100k line with Angel Ray without SE.

4. Work on Fire Demon, Ice Demon !!! Have these skills around 70-90% 1-target DPS of Paralyze, CL. Or around non-SE NL. And adjust the DPS of 2-6 targets of these skills to prevent it become too strong, the DPS could be shared like Heal when it comes to many targets.

5. Make Spell Booster animation fast like Attackers Booster.

6. Make Meteor and Blizzard cast faster. Make them cast as fast as Genesis when not using Spell Booster.

7. Increase DPS and attack range of Big Bang. For DPS probably ( not sure ) 80-90% of Meteor, Blizzard, Genesis on non-elementally-weak mobs.

8. It would be an interesting idea to work on Slow and Seal but I think it's gonna be hard to do that. It's a matter of either making Slow and Seal work on bosses. If it does work, it's gonna be too OP, and it's also a nerf on a skill like Hamstring. Therefore, If arch mages lack supportive capability, only DPS is probably the only thing they can deliver.

 

So what are you taking away? I would assume a substantial nerf to meteor, blizzard, and genesis so they're no longer the best grinders by pretty much the entire margin?

 

Not going to lie, the idea that mages don't need buffs because they can hit 15 mobs with ultimates "really hard" so they cant do anything else ever, makes no sense to me? Not trying to be snarky or anything?

Like Arch mages are basically a meme class that has 0 utility outside of hitting 15 monsters and as such are basically banned from like 90% of the group content past level 130+.
No dojo.
No bosses.
No nothing.

Olaf is practically impossible to complete without killing BOSSES. I/L cant even do LHC with randoms, people will literally think you're trolling.

To add insult to injury its actually DETRIMENTAL to level your Archmage past level 136-150 because you lose leeching profits/worsen EXP splits for literally what, more INT to do nothing with?, Chain lightning and Paralyze??? one of those skills is tied to the literal worst element in the game by far and its SINGLE TARGET. They even introduced an item that stops you from leveling.

They don't even have an end game leeching spot to look forward to, Petris is a dead map and Skeles where, for slightly more meso investment, you can just make a Bishop who can ACTUALLY do other content (Basically just mules outside of a few mid-endgame bosses but that's discussion for another day)

The only thing I can think of that's worth leveling for is RG but that's 170+, you literally have to endure 34+ levels by yourself in an MMO (not so much for F/Ps cause LHC) and a pre-quest where you have to kill BOSSES to progress

I don't think any sane person is asking for these classes to become amazing single target bossing classes (Ew) its mainly enthusiasts on their hands and knees begging for any reason to invest in a dead meme class that they love playing and to also be able to do things with random players in an MMO. without being turned away. Buffing CL/para wont make these classes broken, you'll still just be a mediocre Paladin because the class has like 4 other problems that need fixing before its even considered "good" but give them SOMETHING

Ultimately (heh) though I don't care if the single target buffs happen I'd even prefer if there was just more mobbing content for Mid-Endgame Mages who have invested billions and/or Slow and Seal buffs for A/M (V92. Blizzard/Meteor too I promise I'll be good /hj) , but lets not pretend that Blizzard/Meteor is enough to justify a whole class branch having literally nothing else to do

Also there are like what 5 main class branches? No class branch should have 2/3rds of the choices (or any at all tbh) be relegated to the "Niche", "Meme" nor "Mules only" title

Sorry for the rant

 

Nerf them by making the loot from those unlootable by other character's pets, even if in a party.

(Yes, this is a targeted suggestion to kill mage farming)

 

LHC wasn't designed with mages in mind. I remember when that came out on GMS and it was the first time non-mages had truly solid grinding- keep in mind party play wasn't new but like I spent 80 levels at newts because it was pretty much the best exp possible since bossing wasn't as wide spread (it existed but wasn't the meta it was here, same with leeching for the most part). By the time it came out though we were well past life-altering changes to the game and most places were played wildly different than they had historically. Which is a personal opinion that's fine I stopped playing like 18 years ago.

Ultimately I have the same opinion here. Mages are fine they don't need to be out there killing it bossing. My opinion I don't really care if it's popular- if people want mages to be good bossers with no nerf to their ability to grind/sell leech/etc then so be it. Even with substantial buffs they won't be invited to parties. You guys vastly underestimate your cohorts here. I said it before all the griping and bitching about HP washing and people still don't bring a DrK for HB because it's a dps loss. The people casual enough to take a DPS loss like that are already willing to bring mages to bosses- you won't break thru to the top 10% or whatever arbritary number that "elite" bossers occupy in the maple world.

Really strong class identity is important for game longevity and there's way to make mages better without impeding on other classes frankly only selling point. If you don't want to play a non-bossing grinder the easy answer is don't play a mage.

 

Hahaha, and to think it's been 4 years! Don't worry, I'll wait another 4 years.