Hello, I stopped posting on this thread as I haven't had any of our arguments challenged by the Staff in the last few pages so I figured they'd just let this thread go on and apply the nerf anyway when the time comes. I've said this before: If we're going to balance the mage classes, we can't throw in a 3rd job Bishop on an Arch Mage's side and call it a perk for AMs. Bishops get HS and Arch Mages don't. Period. I'm well aware most Arch Mages have a HS mule, really, I do. "Hey Ayer but its a reality, its fair to compare classes this way as most arch mages have their own HS mule. AMs are op!" Well.. no. If we ignore mages for a second and focus on other classes and apply the same logic, we'd get the following: Nerf base speed and jump values cause anyone could make a level 40 sin or dit to have a haste mule. Nerf HP values as anyone could make a spearman and make it a HB mule. As for bossing, you can't really argue the following: A bishop will be picked 10/10 times in a boss run when it comes to Bishop vs. Arch Mage. Of course all you do is HS twice, they're a support class! You could cast gene too for some additional damage, just like an AM would do (lets say by the end of the run you, as an arch mage, deal about 2 times the damage a bishop does, meaning of course a bishop hits 50k and you hit 100k and we'll ignore the fact gene is faster) but I wonder the % of total damage an AM or Bishop could possibly provide in a boss run compared to other classes. Are mages altogether suitable as an attacker? I was under the impression Bishops attend those runs because of their support skills and Holy Symbol. I'm certain I've never seen aoyn - First paragraph: "If we're going to balance the mage classes, we can't throw in a 3rd job Bishop on an Arch Mage's side and call it a perk for AMs. Bishops get HS and Arch Mages don't." - I wonder if HS-less petris is better leech than skeles with HS. - As for tot, I'm pretty sure a bishop could grind there as well (at least memory lane) but if as an arch mage you want to provide Tot leech, you can't as you'd need a bishop to make it worthwhile. - my 169 FP mage has about 16K MP. if I cast meteor (old source mp cost) I'd be down to like 8k MP, regarding the "minimum HP requirement for HT is 9.8k" means if I get hit while casting I'm dead. I haven't tried HT yet but wouldn't it work like that? Countless times I died like that at Petris back when I was a slightly lower level grinding petris. What I'm trying to get at is the following: The reason most AMs have a HS mule is because HS is very op but somehow we're penalizing AMs when its not even their skill. I completely understand the endgame is too easy for AMs man, but what else do AMs have to offer vs. a bishop? If its not raw damage then what? <-- still looking for an answer. You said yourself Arch Mages are a cooler class than Bishops and I agree. However, these 'plenty of reasons' you speak of, what are they? How come the server's numbers don't reflect that? Here's what I find good for Arch Mages: FP: Petris and RoR although they're about the same exp per hour, an AM could potentially farm helm ints 60% and a rather poor equip drop rate. Now, lets keep in mind AMs don't have HS. IL: Petris and Oblivion. Oblivion offers amazing exp but is it really that good without HS? For money, as far I know its pretty bad. They get every map a bishop does but they don't have HS so the leeching meta in those maps belongs to bishops and bishops alone. As for bossing, you presumably already know how I feel about it.
This thread is already super off-topic and there's no interest from the staff anymore, everything that could be said was already said and done, but lol, just let me adress these few qoutes before i move on from here: It is... Not only you need to cc your priest every 2 minutes to refresh HS, which takes about 10 seconds each time you want to hs (this adds up, and is just frustrating to your pace), but also AMs have really slow casting time in comparison to a bish, which makes clears of low lvl inferior in any single way possible. i'd say around 20% less efficient if i'd have to guess, this amount of difference was the reason people prefered petri over skele after the spawn nerf 100% of the times, so i'd say it's segnificant. This is the a normal skillpoint destrubution of a 4th job AM: max ultimate > 10 points into mw (20 if you are funded) > either spawn or secondary attack spell. even if you decide on leaving the attack spell for later, you still need to put 5 points into the demon spell first. So to add it all up, you'd need 30+10+5+30 points on a normal build to reach the point where you'd think its time to leech with a spawn. now, here's a problem, by then you are a really high lvl, so you don't give great exp. So at this point, you can honestly just farm stoppers, sell them, and buy with it leech and gain better rates lol. BUHAHAHAHAHA!!! Greatest joke of the day man, you made me happy. Let me tell you from experience, as maybe one of the few ILs that were in the most HT run as an "attacker" in the last month. You are talking out of your ass I ran 2 HTs weekly with this IL on a community HT run called blackcats, they let anybody who's lvl 155+ from any class to join the runs and gain equal standings (check the thread to understand how that works later), let me tell you, even if i were to fund myself with 100 more tma (which would cost for my build about 10~15b more if im lucky), and lvl up to lvl 180, i'd still do pathetic damage in comparison to your run of the mill rando at lvl 155. at my current lvl and gear, a chain lighting would do about 22k~ damage to the first target, the targets after that get hit for far less as well [magic damage calculator says the range is 29k-50k, utter lie lol, tested many times against high lvl mobs with normal resistance and its not even close]. the damage of chain lighting doesn't scale all that well with the price i'll need to pay for all this int gear. And lets not forget that all this is ideal talk: When you are in the actual run, there are many problems when it comes to actually fighting the body of HT, the big elephant in the room is that a dispel can be a death sentence, so at the later parts of the run you are practically unallowed to use blizzard and should you be in the middle of a CL cast while you get dispelled, all you can do is pray nothing will hit you in that time. You could theoretically wash a bit to raise your HP to tank a single spell, but that's the most retarded way of wasting money i could ever think of after 30k/30k NL. Now for the more abscure aspects of playing IL in HT, spamming blizzard might sounds like a nice idea for the start , but you'd quickly realize that the chance of dcing players when casting blizzard is too high a price for doing 80k~100k hit on tail hands and wing every few seconds, and as i said you can't use blizz after left hand and head B got too damaged because dispel is a thing. Another bonus is how chain lightning doesn't really chain well because of the "center" of each part is oddly placed, and in most cases could only hit 2 parts at best. at the start it's legs+tails, then only tails, then hands+wings, when wings die you can only hit 1 hand at a time. And the heads cannot chain together unless they are in specific attacking animation. So the advantage of chaining the attack is lost (not that the chain attack does all that much damage in the first place), also when the only head that is left is head B, you have no chance of consistantly attacking it without getting knocked all the way down, so you are mostly forced to fight hands at that point, so you aren't progressing the run as efficiently. I could ramble on for hours for how dumb it is to try to be an attacker with an IL but it's honestly not worth it. The only thing that i helped with in my HT runs is the fact that i can kill the wythrns from afar effectivly, not worth bringing an AM for that.
Tbh I say wait for update. People cry about AM nerf but honestly wdf were you going to do with the class anyway you can't boss effectively you just grind well. F3 You still grind better than everyone after nerf so what's the big deal? I'd rather see more bishops than AMs. Unless we change to a different version of the game and change INT system to make mages similar to current physical attackers like how they did eventually in official. Only then would I fight for the cause. But regardless, there will be a million ILFP mages being made a day after patch. Quote me on this.
You yourself just pointed out the reason peo... So you just like 1 class better than the other and that's all that you need.
Didn't say I like bishops more than AMs. I don't really care too deeply about mages on pre BB like that. But if one is going to be more useful for something and the other is just going to be used for leech I know what I'd prefer to have around. Tbh I personally feel there's too many mages whether they make it far enough I dunno but all I currently see is mages buying leech and mages selling leech and the few who do their own thing are those that have probably already been through the process. I don't like any mage class the way they are tbh lol I love what BB did to mages, made them less of a farm whore.
Everyone hates mage class, but everyone funds them by buying leech, lmao... If people don't like mages, stop giving them reasons to do what they do. As a mage, i would feel 100% comfortable if blizzard and chain lightning switched base att stat. Typical hater guide: -Create a char of a broken, ridicously op attack class; -Buy leech from MAGE CLASS because they are incapable of leveling up by themselves; -Reach high level, bossing without having to see a mage once again; -Go to forum complain mages are useless, should get nerfed. lol, the hypocrisy
Well that's all people do these days. Look at how many mages are popping up solely for the use of making money. And on top of that we have no CPQ, no Romeo and Juliet, no higher level PQ, and grinding to a decent speed compared to leeching is something only a few classes without funding can do. One would think that with this change, the people who want to play mage for liking the class itself will continue to do so. After all, it's not going to affect their status as leech seller if that's what they're worried about. Someone raised a valid point (imo) about how leech should not be greater than self-leveling because look at how all sorts of content is being ignored since everyone is flocking to the leech hype. I think that is a very valid reason to make changes on that front. And it's not like anyone can contest, mages are in their own lane. Now in terms of AMs vs Bishop I personally don't care enough about either class like that to join the struggle on the forums for them individually and to pit them against each other for diversity sake (because I see enough mages generally that I'm not bothered) so I'm the wrong person for this. But it's not that I don't want it to be fair for either one of them either. And just to add (off topic a bit), I for one prefer grinding and I'm always looking for grinding partners, yet struggle to do so. My last partner was a mist poison mage. And before that a CB at himes where I took my bishop to HS both me and the CB. It's very boring continuously watching people buy leech hour after hour but I can't exactly blame them when it's so much faster than anything they could do themselves. Leeching shouldn't be abolished, just changed. If only
15 x atk in 10 second lvl 148, 100k x 15 = 1.500.000 damage every 10 seconds to regular mobs, 2.250.000 to weak ones
I'd like to point out that the fact that you do 100k damage at level 148 is probably why there needs to be an A/M debuff
I think not everyone has 20+ bil gears. Still, why do i need 100k damage AOE if it is only good for selling leech? My main single attack makes about 30k max per hit, so.... Since i dont sell leech and i won't be invited to do any boss runs, i got a lvl 148 useless char.
That would be equivalent to me saying all dark knights are trash in horntail because I'm too cheap to wash mine to safely zerk and i have garbage gear, so everyone else must be bad too right? Either you must've used a faulty calculator or done something wrong, since it works just fine for me Spoiler: Calculator Spoiler: ingame damage as a side note: ~1520 magic isn't even that hard for anyone who actually plays and invests in a mage, even a mage with ~1640 magic wouldn't cost much more in total than an ~8k nightlord. I mean, I'm not trying to say that arch mages are amazing bossers (or low level leechers for that matter), I wouldn't really say that they're "good" either, but paired with an all ranged party at Horntail they are certainly not a bad choice, and they're far from "not being able to boss period". A decently geared one can probably even be on par with other lesser popular classes like marksmen if played right. You may not have had any great experiences playing an arch mage at bosses yourself, but you'd be surprised at how far you can get with some actual good gear, a wee bit of hp washing and some ssiws cheese. To everyone else who replied to my previous post, again my intentions weren't to say that arch mages are amazing at everything, but rather that I, as someone who has played arch mages a lot in the past (and bossed on them), really think that they're far from as bad as you all make them out to be, and i genuinely surprised that you're all so upset that its gonna be slightly harder to 1 hit the strongest monsters in the game. For the people who think arch mages are gonna become obsolete after the very slight nerf to their ultimate damage, take a look at this thread from back in old source: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/mapleroyals-class-census.24940/. If we combine the two arch mages, as they're practically the same class just with slightly different visuals, arch mages were the 3rd most played class in the game, even though you needed a whopping 1290 magic(!) to 1 hit petris, not to mention, literally no one was strong enough to 1 hit ob4 back then since they weren't weak to ice. If you are thinking "they may be the 3rd most played class but they're only played as mules!!!" then yes, that is correct, but honestly what do you expect from a class that's built around farming. They're forever gonna stay farming mules unless they are extensively reworked, which we all know most likely won't happen. And lastly if you think its unreasonable of me to combine the two arch mages in the previously linked post then ...good for you .
What lvl is yuval, to have such high magic? Im sorry but... You have no idea what you are talking about or what is to fight any boss with dispell capabilities in a mage. Also, washing a mage? Do you know how wrong that sounds? Idk if it is even possible to wash it and get any proper hp boost. And even if you do, so many trouble to get a char which equals to 1/4 of an actual attacker? lol
Ok that's going bit too far. Hp washing a mage is really common nowadays because of the dispel risk they (mainly bishop) face in HT. My casual HT run involves about 5 bishop friends and 4/5 are hp washed. The fact that you are questioning possibility of it makes me convinced that you have no idea of what you are addressing here. What's the point of hp washing a shadower or even paladin according to your logic if their dps is going to be way below >1/2 of NLs in HT anyway? They are also called attackers after all. Dude.. Yuval may be low lvl and have low TMA but that goes same for any low lvl or newer player. An average 14x nl will also have relatively shit damage and ofc they aren't invited or considered to run HT duh....? What makes you assume a mage can casually HT "well" at low lvl even when same lvled attackers cannot? HT is an end game boss. Who do you think occupy most HT runs? Older, funded players who are closer to 200. I have a friend named Meaty who long ago told me how he tested the firepower of F/P in old source HT. With graham pie or apple, he proved that a good f/p can possibly outdamage an average hero in HT as there are plenty of targets to hit, also with maxed paralyze and Elquines against single target. I seldom ran Zak on my I/L in oldsource with friends. Although it's very unpopular, Martin's point was that a well funded AM also has the capability to boss if desired. Ofc you will have difficult time finding people who'd accept you as AM but you can host exp runs or even friendly runs, that's how I managed to run zak as I/L. A friend even invited me once to do a test run where there were BM/NL duo zak and my task was to lure or get rid of annoying flying mobs during the run. With bliz and chain lightning, I managed it fairly well and the last comment from the duo was that I/L may be worth replacing a hero in such situation.
This is wrong in so many levels. Washing a Mage is much cheaper than washing NL / BM because MP washing is insanely effective when you have high base INT. Washing to 6K HP on a Mage probably costs 5B-6B mesos at most (assuming 17M resets), while washing an NL / BM to 12K HP probably costs 10B+. Gears for end-game mages are also cheap compared to end- game attackers, since all Mage gears can be 30% and WS+10% instead of chaosed. It probably costs 50B to get 1550-1600 magic? I think @Martin once said such an Arch Mage is similar to a 8K range NL in HT (not sure about this part), and 50B is just enough for 1 equip on a 8K range NL, LOL. I think Arch Mages are not more popular in HT now because every1 treat them as meso-making miles, so nobody even gear to that amount of magic. Besides, such an Arch Mage wouldn't be good in other single-target bosses. But the Mage-HT strategy should be viable.
Lol when I went zak people didn't even want me to use gene cause they think it will dc others so it will be kinda hard to find someone who will accept you to meteor the whole run lol Also there's like 0 point to wash an archmage unless you got like godly gear and tones of high lvl friends, no random party will accept one on a run (unless you're a buyer) I bet if you'd ask high lvl archmages more than 90% of them will say they either never killed HT before or that their HTP was bought
If an archmage has godly gears and tons of high lvl friends, there's even more reason to hp wash! Why do you think some people HP wash NL to 30k when max hit NL can possibly receive at HT is like 20k by head B? Because it's safer! Why can't archmage players think the same way if they love the class they play and have enough funds to ensure safer bossing? Most archmages don't have an experience of bossing because the trend of current meta turned them into grinding mules. That doesn't make them disabled from bossing tho. Ask how many high lvl shads or pallys killed HT before. Most (probably close to 90%) will say they never killed HT or their HTP was bought but that doesn't prevent them from HTing if they want and have capabilities (connections with friends or guilds or community like blackcats). Same for archmages.
No I mean like if you have high lvl friends and godly gear it's like the only situation where washing will reward you, if you're a normal player then there is no point to wash an archmage cause nobody will accept you anyway. Archmage is a bit different than shadower/paladin cause while they are weak some people will accept them (if they are good enough) but an archmage in the run seems like a joke or something to most people. And there's also the thing with people saying you shouldn't use things like meteor/blizzard cause it can dc you, I've literally seen buyers here getting blacklisted for doing meteor in a zak run. I'm not sure if it can really dc you or if that's a myth, for me at least I did an all mage zak run (with 10+ people using ultimates) and didn't dc
