Suggestion to make DrKs more relevant (DrKs have been buffed, irrelevant post)

I thought warriors didn’t have enough accuracy to even hit the grandpa boss?

 

I've actually done showa bosses 3 times now, BGA scared the crap out of me because we only had one bishop and I just decided to not zerk it, and man it hurt.

I've done grandpa boss but I was told by my party I wouldn't be able to zerk, I did BGB easily, but grandpa was spamming that fan move and I didn't trust testing whether it was 1/1 or not. But I really don't remember that damage actually changing, but he's a fast boss either way lol

Honestly, I still believe we should have beholder reflect damage like the post BB buffs, and eat half to give us more HP utility, I'd settle for berzerk base increase though. Easiest way to balance heroe's out is make their enrage able to stack on top of apple. I haven't played paladin so I'm not familiar with their drawbacks besides their maybe range/minimum lines?

 

IMO drks are fine as-is, leave them alone.

I don't think that drk being more difficult than hero should directly translate to "Drk should have higher DPS". The reward from zerking is the more interesting and challenging gameplay. It is certainly more fun to balance your hp bar and (god forbid) use a potion manually once in a while, as opposed to the slog-fest that is heroes holding the brandish key while they watch the director's cut of The Return of the King. But what do I know? I'm just a guy who plays games because they are fun, not because I need data to make my spreadsheets look pretty.

If the consensus is that drks absolutely must be buffed to have superior or par DPS with heroes, then I will provide my thoughts on a few possible changes that have been suggested thus-far.

Bad takes:

Lower zerk hp to <=40% and increase damage:

Spoiler

This locks drks out of too much end-game content. The "Just don't there zerk then" argument is garbage because no one is going to take half an attacker. 12k hp would make Toad, Auf, and PB (soonTM) mostly unzerkable. These are all entirely single-target bosses as well, which drks already don't do so well at. Why on earth would anyone take a zerkless drk to any of these, especially when HB has been largely replaced by hp washing?

Zerk damage increases as hp gets lower:

Spoiler

A nice idea in theory, but could be easily abused. Why not make some smokescreen mules and zerk at 1hp for a while? Would be nice with the new 90 second smoke.

​

Mediocre takes:

Berserk damage increases as you lose hp, to a max of 2x at 50% hp:

Spoiler

The list of unzerkable bosses isn't very high at the moment, and while this could provide some wiggle-room for tricker ones like Auf or Showa bosses, I feel that it is unnecessary and does not address the main problem of drks having less DPS than heroes when they are at a greater risk. Additionally this is counter-intuitive with beholder's healing ability, as it would be even more likely than now to heal you past your hp thresholds.

Increasing Sky Ski/Pyrope attack speed by 1:

Spoiler

This would serve to make other spears completely obsolete. Pinaka/Faltz is at least somewhat viable for new players or those without godly gears. Alternatively buffing all spears by 1 would make skis worse than faltz with booster + SI. While I'm in favor of destroying the sky ski economy, I'd imagine others are not so keen on the idea.

​

Good takes:

Dragon's blood attack buff stacking:

Spoiler

This is an interesting skill that is pretty much useless right now. Since drks are almost never dropped to 1 hp thanks to Achilles, it should be rare that this ability kills you. It also creates an interesting dynamic with beholder's heal where one ability is hurting you and the other is healing you. Plays well into the hp-juggling style of drks.

Beholder buffs stacking with other buffs/potions:

Spoiler

It would be nice for beholder to be more useful than just providing accuracy and avoidability, seeing as the other stats are currently useless. Having him out when you have the healing ability maxed can be annoying if he heals when you use a potion and it puts you over the 50% hp threshold. Many drks either don't summon beholder or don't take points in the healing skill.

​

I think there is potential for some buffs/reworks with Dragon's Blood and Beholder being the best candidates for tweaks. It would be interesting to have both of these skills active and working against one another where one is healing and the other is taking away hp, while both providing some buffs that aren't simply replaced by potions. This also provides a more gradual increase to DPS as your character levels up, as opposed to simply adding a percentage to berserk.

Of course, the exact attack values for the buffs would have to be tweaked so that drks will look nice in the spreadsheets.

 

Ppl were talking about re balance heros bcs of an imaginary buff for drks.Again, no matter how big they. Can buff drks,the only way that a drk can outshine heros is by elimination of zerk mechanic, if we remain with the hp control mechanic at 50 or 40%,hero will always be relevant no matter what, drks could do 3 times heros dmg and still be under heros due the easy gameplay that they have.ill have to be honest here, yes even with 50% i find drk as a kind of a challenge, i wss able to do toad succesfully my 1st time,and ofc here in royals ivr zerked at anego and all the showa bosses,but i still find things like ht exiting,ive see ppl that say they zerk wstching tv, idk how they do it, i have to pay atention so "is not a challenge anymore" isnt as accurate for me. I could zerk at 40% and a do for fun sometimes...but isnt as easy for everyone and and i can understand that..
I said that all Warriors could use a buff buff its just bcs except by pallys heros and drks dont have a niche anymore...something where theyre the best at...thats another story...btw rage as a party buff stacksble is a bad idea its an lvl37 echo mule...if theyre making rage stack it HAS to become a self buff.. and aallys are fine and will we even more more relevant if theres PB someday....but the top tier pallys struggle a little thanks to dmg cap...ive talk about it in some pallys feedback threads.

 

He does 1/1 and 1/1+seal. I've solo'd him before as a Hero without receiving touch damage so I'm sure a Drk would be able to.

 

Solo? U were able to solo previous bga and and bgb? Bcs that is something a drk cant do 4 shure.....

And it kinda proves our point XD

 

Yes. I was only referring to The Boss when bringing up Drk's. Drk's can't do bga unless they want to fight him without Berserk, because the only sure method is to stand on top of him.

 

Is there any bosses currently that is impossible or realistically difficult for a Dark Knight to zerk at 40%? Like bosses provide little time to or no time for them pot up their HP into safety?

The only thing I fear for them is lag.

 

40%? i see toad, bga&The Boss, auf , the TRIFECTA end game bosses

 

I'd have to disagree with you Relmy. Dark knights with SI buff are stronger than Heros, and I've noticed it from all of my experience playing Drk main (now level 197).
The thing is, you need to have better core equipment in comparison to heros to outshine heros which costs a little extra, and heros don't need the SI buff when using a ST and their "self buffs" are better than ours.
Therefore, while it seems that the average Hero is better than the average Drk, Drks deal higher dps when got SI and SE because of the extra chance for critical hit, and due to them being a stronger class in general (for those who know how to play it right!).
As for zerking, it definetly needs some sort of revamp(maybe add more defensive skills that allow us to take 14k damage instead of more?) because as mentioned drks cannot zerk on bga and auf haven which makes them quite obsolete when it comes to true endgame bossing. I don't think Drks reward for the hard gameplay should be a challenging experience. I think the best suggestion to make them more relevant is to stack the beholder attack buff with other pots (btw in GMS beholder gave +25 attack, this game has it nerfed to only 15), or to somehow introduce a stronger endgame spear than the current Sky Ski.

 

LF fast 4 spear

 

keep in mind the main issue is not our lack of damage as attacker who risk alot and barley starch the DPM of other two warriors (which is a fact!)
it's simply the lack of relevance in parties since hp washing became absolute need in current end game.
people willing to invest even above 10b in apr alone just so they wont have to rely on DrK HB buff anymore.

id like to bring this up again.

this change alone will bring DrKs back to be more desirable attacker as well as utility party member which will also prevent it from being a doll buff mule.
3 in 1
1) stackable buff = more damage along with the pots
2) party utility = im sure more attackers can use this +15 watt and acc, etc..
3) buff mule counter measure = condition only if DrKs continually attack.

 

well it would do that anego pass from extremelly difficult to almost impossible and make auf bgb toad and a few others directly impossible, thats why im not into make zerk strictly 40% activation rather than make it a tier system.. like i mentioned b4, bcs even those bosses where we can "easily" zerk at 40% are forcing us to use 2 hp potions wich believe me can take out dmg instead of adding dmg.

XD, im sorry im not trying to mock on you, but are you telling me than drks can be better if have better equips?? wow, i would never tought on that XDDD. thats quite obvious buddy, i have outdmg nls with my drk just bcs of gears diff, if you want to compare them with us u HAVE to do it on equal circunstances, and it turns out that with SI an ST hero is pretty much on pair with us, but they have that option of claymore where they completely kick our asses...if someone ask me wich warr to start i would recomedn a hero bcs even unwashed they can stay at 18-20k hp where we dont...were worst than an unwashed hero, they have the power , the role and the options to be SIless or SI dependant...we dont, i have tried myself many times like i said and i make sure that gears are equal, ofc not at krex, isntead at HT zak and cwkpq. No matter how good you are that constant manual heal takes away the little difference that are "in our favor" when SI.
The whole point of this when we talk about the comparission between heros and drks is to note..why the Fk we have to care about so much extra stuff to be stronger when the gameplay per se says that we should be better someway? the best way to understand this is, imagine yourself explaining jobs to someone who desnt have a clue about this game, and when ure talking about warriors explaining drks and heros u will notice the nonsense it is.....

Also i have said this b4, and believe this b4 aswell...but then i notice the reality..and this is a lie, just try it pls, look a fro a hero friedn and lend him ur gears(ofc if u trust him enough) the reality is this, we get more benefited of SE+SI than heros...but that doesnt makes us stronger..lemme explain it properly

lets value drks and heros from 1-10

if ST HERO is 8
Drk is 7
when u buff both with SE+SI hero will have an increment of 1.5 meanwhile drk will increment in 2, SOOOOO drk is bettter when SI+SE!!!! YAAAAAY.....and then u found out that 8+1.5=9.5 and 7+2=9...yes we got more benefited of SE+SI...but with that conditions theyre still stronger.....not to count that , if theyre funded enough they can have a claymore to kick our asses even more and even have both weapons to be redy in case of SI or no SI.......we dont

and we kinda agree here, i didnt want to even quote that comment wich said " hey as a rewrd u have a more fun experience"...bcs any response from me to that would be really insulting, sor such a dumb comment, if i want a challenging experience i ll just make a hero and stay at 15k hp for pure fun and it would be the same(not to count i could have the option of full hp when the boss requires it)
And after a while i have notice that im against zerk being activated strictly at 40% hp no matter what buff they give us, like i said i disagree with sparky, make the hex att buff stack could be nice just if it comes with no extra handicap, if they add a handicap like that, that buff is to little IMO. i said this a million times but the idea that seduces me the most is making zerk a tier system(20% extra dmg for each 10% less hp u have up to 40% to avoid exploits...to clarify 260% dmg at 30% would be too much maybe up to 220% at 40% seems fine to me and it wuld solve everything IMO)

Also, im not much into buffing ski speed...that would make just less SI depndant....it wouldnt solve much or introduce a new spear just for us...im not that shure about that....probably they would introduce reverse items for everyone and the problem remain the same(not to count the reverse spear is slow 7, wich if doesnt have a speed change to normal 6 it would be even worse).....

Well were not shure if this can be done...how to make a buff just work when ure atacking? can just power strike once every 80 secs to activate it? what would be the distance to activate it? hex works randomly, it would worth it?if it did..players are smart they would find a way to cheat it out.
i actually think hb isnt a great thing anymore but is enough to give us relevance in boss pts i we just can do something better than heros, in exchange for ...well this guy probably die....thats why buccs are our best friends SI and TL

If sparky shows a video of a succesfully quad auf haven then we just need to deal a bit of better dmg and im shure that and hb is enough to make things balanced.....heros and drks fullfil the same role, but it should be heros=safer and easier and drks=stronger and riskier..like i said that wouldnt make heros obsolote ..we have sairs as an example....who dealms more dmg between them and buccs?...and why are buccs more popular?

I can bet ALL my gears that even if they buff drks to do twice as dmg that they currently do, a TON of ppl move to drk just to try how op they are...and 3 months later over 70% of them will get back to their original jobs or if they invested too much in warriors gears they will move to hero IM ABSOLUTELY SHURE.(and again im not suggesting a buff of 100% more dmg)

 

Since alot of focus seems to be on comparing DrK and Heroes, here are the values for godly chars of both class:



63 cgs, echo, apple, perfect weapons, lvl 200. Calcs done through this thread.

 

Twists everywhere

 

After 7 pages of "Hero much higher dps than drk" with no evidence.

Spoiler

 

Ok, i wanted to be soft to not offend anyone, and bcs what im about to say is not entirely what i think, is just kinda what i actually think.

1.Main concern isnt about comparission with heros,but compare them is the easiest way to show the problems.(i mentioned myself bcs theres many coments of some changes to drks making them obsolote, woch like i said looks ridicoulous to me)

2.and the most important thing is(like i said this is not exactly what i think,but is really close to it) both paper math calculations and krex ones are WORTHLESS, ill try to record myself in cwpq zak and ht and ask a hero friend to do the same to give the ACTUAL results...krex barely hits so it doesnt show anything.....and paper...well...is paper
Btw recomend me a program wich can record me over an hour for a old pc with win7 pls bandicam just records 10 mins

 

When u find the difference between data and reality...

 

I highly recommend obs, you can play with the settings to reduce bit rate / fps / recording quality etc if you're worried about the computer being slow. Here is the link: https://obsproject.com/.

 

Here's something to make you happy @Relmy .

As a man of science, with the help of Rogue guild, I went to execute the experiment to see if Heroes really outDPS Drks in real life (royals life) situation, not just by paper theory.

My drk went for a 1 vs 1 whiting competition with @ray70337 at Zakum B3. Ray was ahead by ~2 wep att in overall equip funding. I thought this is the perfect place to test the theory since Zak provides plenty of obstacles for Drks to overcome.

1st run: with apple (100att)
2nd run: with Naricain demon elixir (140att)

Result
Hero whited both runs.

1st run
Hero exp: 7638014
Drk exp: 7481984

Difference: 156030

2nd run
Hero exp: 7596462
Drk exp: 7523536

Difference: 75926

1st run's exp gap was bigger than the 2nd run most likely because the Drk got stunned once.

2nd run's exp gap was extremely small but this is possibly due to the Hero getting stunned once.

This is the recording of the 2nd run


Conclusion and Discussion
Hero stood in the middle of Zakum's body with basically 0 RNG factors affecting his DPS. Meanwhile, Drk had to overcome numerous factors such as knockbacks, stuns and seals. I made a mistake or 2 but despite doing my best to keep up the DPS, RNG of KB due to stance failure, iframe timing (flying mob touch dmg iframe ending at the exact moment of stun) were out of control and inevitably led to an accumulative DPS loss.

Unlike the 2nd eye of Krex, Zakum has frequent weapon cancels which give ample time for the Hero to recharge/build-up ACA, partially eliminating the only factor that favors Drk's DPS over the hero's in paper theory. The majority of other bosses present similar obstacles with invincible moments, hence in reality, Hero's shouldn't really lose out in ACA recharging time.

The exp gap of 2nd run implies that there was only a few hits difference in DPS between the Hero and Drk. However, this is with the Hero getting stunned once and losing out about 9 Brandish hits (~1 million dmg). Under normal, real-life situations, Heroes will be unaffected by RNG factors while Drks face unpredictable challenges that can throw them off guard.

I believe I might be able to white the Hero once or twice over 10 tries under the identical condition if I make 0 mistakes and the RNG is on my side, but statistically, the overall balance leans toward Heroes since they stand unaffected by RNG. This doesn't even factor in the Guardian skill of 1H sword + Shield Heroes that can provide 15% invincibility. In practice, out of wall bosses like Krex, Drks arguably cannot white Heroes.