Firstly thank you for creating the thread to provide better clarity around reporting offences. A few comments: - Hacking/botting reports - Correct me if I am wrong but I've previously seen staff member(s) mentioning in shoutbox that even if someone submits a perfect report (i.e. clear video evidence of a hacker) a GM still needs to go and record evidence themselves prior to initiating the ban. This in itself makes very little sense to me but if this is the case, there would be little-to-no point in community members recording evidence as it doesn't reduce staff's workload at all. - My understanding of the mass defamation sub-section of the TnCs is that the "10+ rule" is arbitrary and at the discretion of the staff member processing the report. Personally I would agree with this approach because once you stipulate a specific value to what constitutes as mass defamation more loopholes start to appear where players start defaming 8-9 times to protect themselves from a harassment ban players who get defamed may feel they don't have the evidence required to submit a substantiated report - The evidence required for scamming reports probably needs to be less rigorous because most cases of scamming won't have all the necessary information listed. - Is there any reason why staff are averse to providing refunds if the evidence is as clear as what is being asked of? - It would be good to clarify if repeated reports on the same individual for suspicious activity is endorsed or not provided there has been more evolution (i.e. unexplained, significant progression and/or further evidence to support a previously refuted claim) Overall it is a useful addition to the forums and it would be encouraging to see this translate into more productive outcomes.
+1 this. I can imagine several scenarios where it's worth it for a player to take a first time ban for scamming, e.g. expensive NX items and gears that involve drop trade or multiple trades. Also I can't seem to find scamming in the T&C, which infraction is it placed under?
Objectionable Behavior (Disruption) - The act of engaging in any sort of action that is deemed to be excessively disruptive to the individuals around you, including spamming or flooding chat or skills. Punishment: First offense - 3 day ban, Second offense, 7 day ban, Third offense - Permanent ban.
It says 10 defames+, but I have seen appeals and such before where GM's have said that you shouldn't think you can get away with 9 defames just because it says 10+. It is looked at on a case by case basis. But maybe it could be clearer so people know to make a report even if it may be under 10
As for scamming, this post is the probably the most guidance that people have right now in terms of how scamming falls into the T&C. We are currently working on major updates to the T&C, and greater clarity on scamming is definitely a big ticket item on that end. And we are also looking into potentially changing the punishment scheme for scamming because we have also recognized how "cost-efficient" it can be for players to simply eat a 3-day ban and gain billions of mesos. It took years of pushing from us in the community (back when I was a player) to get scamming as recognized as it is today; progress is abound SoonTM! As for lack of refunds, it mostly has to do with Staff practice of not refunding for player error. And at the end of the day scamming is an avoidable consequence. As for harassment, 10+ defames being bannable doesn't mean that any less isn't bannable. I presume it was worded that way in the guide because in terms of reporting players for mass defamation, we often receive reports for harassment with 1 ~ 3 defames (hopefully this information is okay for me to disclose lol). So I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about loopholes, but I do agree that we can shake up the wording to provide better clarity for players.
Refunding/Reinstateing is not a good idea. One loophole might possibly form. Let's say Player A and Player B are friends. Player A got "scammed" by Player B for a rare NX of 20b. If staff refunds(by giving them another rare NX), the economy will now have an additional unit of that rare NX. Rinse and repeat, for 50 other different Players A and B, now the perceived value of the rare NX will no longer be worth 20b. And needless to say, some might just take the 3 days ban for the rare NX. Now Player B scams Player A, and that will be another rare NX in the market. In a span of 1 week, 2 friends can turn 1 rare NX into 3. Also, this will give staff additional unnecessary work. Another scenario Players A, B, C and D this time. Player A got "scammed" by Player B for a rare NX of 20b. What happens if Player B consumes the "scammed" item and sold it to player C for 20b, and then uses the mesos to buy APRs from Player D. By refunding Player A, you now also have to reverse the trades from Players B, C and D. Which again, unnecessary work. Instead of refunding/reinstating, maybe a thread on how to mitigate losses/avoid getting scam might be helpful. preach
I'm not sure if this is what OP intended to say but I think a refund from staff implies confiscation of the item/mesos from the offender.
Staff are allowed to ban based off of evidence supplied by players if it follows all the guidelines and clearly shows the offense committed. Sometimes the evidence isn't perfect or cropped etc. so a staff member will have to check themselves. I can confidently say that I have banned players based off of 'perfect' evidence from reporters and I've seen other GMs do it too. Must have been a misunderstanding. Edit: Your reports are really helpful, please don't stop reporting to everyone reading this!
I think it will be best to let OP clarify/decide on that. I also believe it makes more sense for a confiscation rather than a refund, else it will be an unneeded mountain of workload for players's mistakes. Regardless of confiscation or refund, I still think that players should be vigilant and maintain skepticism when it comes to trading.
We look at these (rare) cases where people get mass defamed and have evidence of it on a case to case basis. What we want to point out is that if you've been an idiot and your whole APQ party defames you for example (-5) they aren't harassing you, they are using defames as intended. However there is no need for an individual or a small group to get someone in the ballpark of 10 defames on multiple of their characters etc. We believe going out of your way by multiple relogs and finding the person just to defame them is toxic behavior and will be considered harassment. We don't want to publicly release a cut off between how many defames per individual or group is acceptable to go unpunished similar to how we don't release the cut off between minor and major vote abuse as more people would be inclined to risk a temporary ban (or in the defaming case, none at all) to get away with it. Others have touched upon this but we don't have the time to dig through your history with someone that may have scammed you just because you didn't feel like covering yourself with an agreement and keeping evidence of that. As for refunds, whatever is being scammed could be long gone from the offender and we don't have the time to chase all of that down nor do we want to simply introduce more into the game. You're not driving off in a replacement car provided by the police station if you report your car has been scammed from you. If a report is still open and you have more information you should add it in there, if a report has been closed you should refer to the old report in your new report and add information to best aid us.
Many thanks Scamming is a fairly loose term in all honesty and I don't think anyone is expecting staff to confiscate and/or refund everything under the sun. The two scenarios that spring to mind for many are: - drop-trading rare nx in order to maintain their respective GM tag - CS/WS trades with APR both circumstances related to inherent glitches in the game. I suppose something worth thinking about is that there is no insurance mechanism for any of these trades, including the relatively common CS/WS to APR exchanges yet this is not explicitly advised against anywhere in game or on the forums, by the community or by staff. Somehow there seems to be a false reassurance amongst players that if you video record these trades you are ?safe from being scammed which is not true. I agree with this comment entirely and you have reiterated my point in that I don't think June's post should mention "10+ defames is a bannable offence" because likewise I don't think a specific cutoff or value is appropriate given the potential to generate loopholes, nor do I believe a malevolent attempt at mass defamation should be quantified with a specific value hailed as "acceptable". There are people who will go through all that effort to get people banned for [3 days] (we will await for the TnC update) when you're not going to get anything back that you've lost? Seems to be less effort and more effective to just post in the community blacklist. I don't disagree with you but this mentality is part of the reason why inflation has become such a phenomenal problem over the last few years. Many players are waiting to obtain expensive items from suspected illegitimate sources prior to submitting a report but naturally they get to keep said item because staff simply do not have the time to chase any of this down. The end result is that another 5? 30? 50? 100? billion mesos is injected into the game. Thanks.
Agree with you. It will be a hassle but I believe with collateral(s) of similar/equal value and/or a transparent third person to help facilitate the trade, all those losses can be mitigated.
A short one, so those who appeared in community blacklist as scammer esp leech scam, over and over again, been banned before? (Idk if they got banned before perhaps they didn't appeal or so) or is it just because player decide to put it on blacklist and not reporting them, so they won't get ban?
Often times players only end up on the blacklist for scamming, as the standard of evidence required for a ban is much stricter than that required for inclusion on the blacklist. Some players have indeed gotten banned for scamming though, they just end up on the blacklist as well. And yes, an abuse report must be submitted to ban a player for scamming.
