Magic defense definitely could be looked at. On hero/pally, Power Guard only protects against physical touch, leaving us defenseless to magic. I feel very odd needing to push my body against Anego to not take 18k damage. Only mages have any chance of getting m.def, so it's both a weak and a rare stat. +M.def quest?
Something like 1% damage reduction for every 30 points of defense would be nice. Also, shield mastery should be buffed to increase defense on all equips when a shield is equipped, not just on the shield. Currently it gives something like +6 defense at max with a D.Khanjar lol.
Anego actually deals physical damage in her slap and not magic damage The bishop's invincible skill reduce the damage you take from it to around 12-13k (invincible only works on physical damage)
I always thought that the defense stat needed a rework so I'm glad others agree. In MS, offense is the best defense. If you can kill monsters without getting hit, then you don't even need HP potions. However, this is rarely the case. I think the value of the defense stat is completely diminished in private servers like this because of the fact that potions are basically free. If you don't have potions, you can just walk in the FM and you are bound to get some if you ask nicely enough. With old drop rates, they were much harder to come by. That being said, I still think it would be interesting for defense to allow mitigation of damage from higher level bosses. If this was the case, even if HP washing wasn't removed, it would give players more gearing options. You could wear gear with more defense or instead choose raw damage if you already have enough HP to take a hit from the boss. It could allow players who can't afford to HP wash to deal with end bosses. It might even allow for some changes to be made to HP washing. I also think that defense scrolls and shields should get a big defense buff. You could then give a bit of a nerf to the damage output of 1h BW and 1h sword to accommodate for this change. This would make 2h BW better in terms of damage (2h sword already is better, I believe) and also allow players on a budget to play more defensively. These changes would obviously take a lot of calculation but I think it would be worth it in the long run. Providing players with more gearing options while also leveling the playing field with hp washed characters could be a massive improvement to the game. I feel like many people quit because they can't afford to put the time into HP washing and it leaves a sour taste when people tell you to redo your character because you didn't do it. A defense buff, if implemented properly, could serve as a creative solution.
I agree defense stat should be reworked. But if it is too much to change, can skills like shield mastery be changed so as to give % reduction, and thus more relevance? It seems very silly that a paladin with a shield and much more defense than the "squishier" jobs like nightlords/bm all take around the same damage..
hmm, after reading my old post, i realized i might've misunderstood the formula, this is a damage formula of how much damage the player deals against a mob. it could be that defense calculation is done differently on the other way around, i just don't have the exact formula. but from experience i still think that defense only gives a flat damage reduction, which is the basis of this thread, so i won't edit my main post for this remark and just leave this here instead.
Maybe the best example of how useless the DEF stat in this game is is when you switch between a HTP with a whooping +255 DEF to a defless MoN and you can't tell the difference.
I will not say that def system is great or anything, but def on htp is actually key to let drks be able to zerk at some "imposible" places....
There are 2 ways we can go about this, tweak the "Def formula" or "selected skills". Just to throw out some ideas: Option 1: Change DEF formula We could change the DEF stats from flat decrease in damage to % reduction in damage with soft cap. Here's a formula example: Dmg.Reduction = (R+D)/(R+D*M) Where, D = DEF stats value R = Damage reduction rate constant M = Soft cap multiplier Then apply the monster damage to player by: Base.Dmg * Dmg.Reduction = Final.Dmg Reference example (R=4000, M = 10 = 90% damage reduction soft cap): Spoiler Example of lower R value, higher rate of damage reduction early on (R=1000, M = 10 = 90% damage reduction soft cap): Spoiler Example of lower M value, decreasing damage reduction soft cap (R=4000, M = 5 = 80% damage reduction soft cap): Spoiler This let the DEF stats scales by %, also giving a diminishing return feature so the players have to decide themselves how far they want to invest into DEF stats. Just by tweaking 2 parameters, developers can re-balance the DEF efficiency when needed. Option 2: Change skills How about rework the warrior skills to something like: [Iron Body]: A party skill like [Iron Will], but provide % damage reduction instead of flat defense increase. Since it's 1st job skill, effectiveness is relatively low. [Achilles]: Retains original skill with additional effect of increasing effectiveness of [Iron Body], perhaps maxed level buff will also mitigate boss 1/1 to 30/30. - Gives warriors their identity of being a tank, providing functioning tank utility to party members.
Wholeheartedly agree with def/m.def needing a refocus because of the severe HP gatekeeping. Two small points though. 1. Universal end gear such as zhelm, HTP, should probably have their defense lowered, otherwise if everyone is getting these massive defense boosts, it's again a redundant stat that most share, and the only difference will be warriors who have higher def gear. This makes defense totally useless again because zhelm, HTP equalize all other classes, and as I said, making def redundant to almost every class 2 marauders/buccs would need some def boost. They share gear with sairs, a very fragile class, and the def stats of pirate gear is much lower compared to warrior, but unlike sairs, buccs are up close, melee mobbers like warriors. Def/m.def could be added to transform (this is the most likely situation since trans is eternal now, big f3 from me dawg but whatever), but if it's packed in trans, which is eternal, it again makes defense semi pointless here since it will automatically be applied due to trans, and not be a needed/sought aspect to help the class advance (in a world where defense actually benefits users) @FeiLongHuang As for the last post about 1st job iron body reducing damage on a % level, that is simply entirely too OP. And I don't understand the math or defense formula so your first proposition isn't something I can comment on. I think making iron body give much more def+ per level is a good option though. Iron body is the "dump" skill for 1st job, all remaining pts are added to it, so it's difficult to max, but not impossible. Boosting its def from +2 per level, to +3~5 is much better for those that actually make the choice to invest in this skill. And remember that spearmen would also have iron body, and iron will, and that DRKs achilles is now 20% DR, not 15% like the other warriors, so drks would benefit extremely from this if iron will and body reduced by %. However if body/will had a general buff, it would be very wise for drks to build their SP defensively for endgame content (more of which is still to come) I agree both skills should be improved as they are no/low priority and likely never maxed. Skills in this position deserve to be buffed to be both attractive, and worth investment for those wanting the benefits that they should more realistically provide (at max).
Meant to say "more" def could be added. I double checked how much it boosted before I posted. Did play marauder on gms. The point is, in a possible world where defense has actual value, some items and skills, including transform kinda make it pointless because how easy it is to obtain roughly the same amount. So if everyone had roughly the same def stats from gear, def wouldn't really factor into the meta, and HP demands would again lap it, unless we maybe start talking about a boss that always does exactly 32k damage before defense stats, and could ignore Achilles or meso guard, then def would be back on discussion. The reality is def scrolls are obsolete in the meta and should perhaps be replaced with another system to reinforce/add def stats on equipment, like the maker skill, or the blacksmith NPCs, that doesn't use slots. The problem is devs will likely take it to an extreme at some point, making it required for something at some point, which then takes the concept from "supplemental/playstyle" to "meta/mandatory".
A way to buff Defense overall for all classes is to give it the ability to increase its value on each level up, so each time your character levels up, and depending on your job class and level your def/mdef goes up the same way HP/MP does by a small margin. And then after completing each job advancement either: 1) Give a flat increase in def/mdef value based on your character JOB and subclass (again, just like HP/MP does) 1.1) Warriors get the highest flat increase in Wdef, while their Mdef in contrast sees the lowest increase. Elemental Warriors (aka Paladins) may be an exception to this rule. 1.2) Bowmen: In most MMOs, archers in general are regarded as magical being with magic properties, and because they are not specialized in hand to hand combat, they should have higher Mdef, and in contrast, lower Wdef, but not lowest. 1.3) Magician: It's obvious they should have the highest flat increase in Mdef, while their Wdef makes the worst if not, negligible increase. Anyways their Mdef is supposed to cap naturally at later levels, so this Mdef cap should simply be removed as the only class that can surpass the cap, is well, this class. 1.3.1) F/P and I/L should have natural IMMUNITY or at least, higher resistance to their given element speciality. Bishops, being more of a supportive role in boss/party play should have higher overall flat Mdef than the offensive element based archmages. 1.4) Thieves: 1.4.1) Night Lord: Since this class has already almost all pros and virtually no cons, it should make sense that they should have the worst def/mdef ratios of all the classes. They should still gain more more physical def than any of the magician class, but no more than the others, with a lackluster mdef since that would fit perfectly with their highly dps-offensive playstyle. 1.4.2) Shadowers: Since they are more of a melee class, and considering they have a more defensive playstyle *cough* *cough* (smokescreen) they should have higher Wdef and Mdef than most classes. Period. 1.5) Pirates 1.5.1) Corsairs: Should have same worse Wdef/Mdef as Night Lords, except they aren't top DPS so they could use higher flat values to compensate their lower damage output. 1.5.2 Buccaneers: Same as Shadowers but with a slight nerf to Mdef, they're also Melee oriented and have the ability to increase their MaxHP on 2nd Job so they should have the 2nd highest weapon defense in the game, only after the Warrior class. 2) Option 2 is the same to all of the above Except flat value increases on Level up and Job Adv. are replaced with percentage %-based values. Just like Achilles or buffed Shield Mastery would do. I'm no mathematician so I can't come up with a proper percentage% based formula that scales accordingly with each job advancement and level, feel free to collaborate on this if you can get the right numbers to work with. And adding to this, all defensive equipment specific to each class should be modified to account for the above suggested, magician clothes should have naturally high Mdef while also having awful Wdef and Warrior equipment should have HUGE Wdef with laughable Mdef. Example: Starting on 2nd job advancement, Warrior has a flat increase of +1000Wdef/+100Mdef, each level up from 30-70 permanently adds +8def/+1mdef, 3rd Job advancement gives +2000Wdef/+200mdef, each level up from 71-120 permanently adds +12mdef/+2mdef, 4th Job +3000Wdef/+300Mdef, each level up from 121 until 200 permanently adds +16wdef/+3mdef and so on... (These are just random numbers I thought of but can be finetuned as needed, if defense/magic defense caps before Level 200, remove it.) Magician could use the same values as warrior but reverse Wdef with Mdef instead. Remove magic defense cap so they don't get bonked on late 4th job. Ranged classes would have either a middleground and/or lower defense/mdefense increase so they stay behind the tankier melee classes. 3) Or you know, you could directly tie STR with DEF just like in modern GMS, but then again only Warriors and Buccaneers could efectively increase their Weapon Defense as STR is their main stat. While Bowmen/Corsair and Shads have minor defense increase from this as STR are their secondary/tertiary stats respectively and the NL's would be totally left out which still is unfair for them despite being the most broken class in the game. Magicians are not considered in this case for obvious reasons.
lol wut The top green line is Corsair DPS. The next yellow line is Night Lord. Edit: Chart Source linked below
Can you send me the source of this via PM? Is this chart buffless, self-buff or all buff including SE?
Im guessing u dun hv a 200 mage right? Mdef gets to cap of 1999 rly quick with 999 base int + all ur gears
Source: @Tim https://royals.ms/forum/threads/4th-job-skill-changes.135025/ Take away SE and NL likely at the very bottom.
