At this point in the meta, no one can remove Sky Skis from the game, they are the best weapon for DKs. Instead Sky Ski can be made a level 100 weapon and it's attack can be buffed somewhere from 5-7 att (up to ST's attack, for comparison). All end game slow spears (Pinaka/Faltizan/Stormshear) should be buffed too accordingly to not make them too obsolete for new players
Why would we want to remove Sky Skis? Why is there a need to buff the best spear in the game, especially when after buffing it all other spears have to be buffed as well?
To make it an actual end game weapon and have its stats more on par with its sword equivalent (ST)? Slow spears can get a small buff too just so newer players could use them while they're too poor to afford a good Ski and they wouldn't become completely useless. It's just a small overall damage buff to DKs through their weapons. It's a little weird that the best in slot weapon for DKs is a level 85 weapon, at this point might as well make it a proper level 100 end game weapon.
I don’t understand why you do not consider Sky Ski as an endgame weapon, solely because they are lower level. Yet you agree they are the best spear in the game. Also comparing Spears to Sword isn’t as easy as you might think. They use different formulas even for different attack types (stab/swing). You cannot only look at their weapon attack. Don’t get me wrong I don’t really like Sky Ski‘s myself. I think it’s weird for them to be the best spear in the game because of what they really are - a pair of Ski. Compared to something like Dragon Faltizan it feels offputting to me. Especially since one of the jobs names is Dragon Knight. Yet I don’t think it’s something we should change now that many players invested alot into their Sky Skis already. For sure I don’t think buffing up Sky Ski and every other slow spear is the way to go either. Dark Knight already outperform Hero’s easily with the drawback of HP-management.
I don't know why you are overcomplicating things, it's simply a buff to DKs. And no DK's absolutely don't outperform Heros where did you get that? Heros don't have any HP management and outdamage DK's consistently.
you're capping if you think Drk's are outdamaged by heroes consistently. no wonder DrK's are at the top of the mountain (talking about warrior class) with amazing AoE damage outburst. Berserk is a great buff and a challenging mechanic to handle to make sure DrK's are rewarded and also a bit more interesting than Paladin/Hero. Of course Spear Crusher also hits hard and on multiple enemies and etc.. This is a bit of an odd discussion, as the formulas are different (for sword & spear) and you can't really compare the two (as Zancks said). I personally think this whole thread is (alm0st) pointless, as I do agree a "Sky Skii" being the end game weapon for "Dragon Knight" is quite weird (again, agreeing with Zancks). I own a lv 170 DrK with a Sky Skii so I believe my opinion is quite valid here.
dark knight has always been stronger than hero during my 5 years on this server, it was more even at the start but after the zerk buff in patch 68 dark knight has been on top. all warriors could use some love as there is little room for them in a shad+bucc meta.
Isnt a perfect fishing pole, a level 45 spear also considered a viable end game weapon? Just because the stats are lower doesnt mean theyre weaker. Weapon speed is a humongous part of a weapons viability. And sky skis have a little of both. Speed and stats
Its actually the best spear in some situations(mainly no SI ones) but due the att difference and some other reason that i wont go in depth now(pretty shure theres already threads about this around from a few years ago) its not worth to scroll a perf pole. (end of quote) Btw on this thread in general : 1.- Buff ski att is a terrible idea, and not as simple as just do it LOL. 2.- Drk will outperform Heros in most scenarios/situations, theres just a few where heros shine over drks and even then most of those are places where both of them suck anyways, the only content that comes to my mind rn where a hero is actually viable/usefull and should outperform Drks is VL. 3.- Drks dont really need a buff in terms of WA or dmg(specially comparing them to heros lol), shure they can be improved in a few QoL things, name it: Heal dont surpase zerk range, increasing the action range of crusher, or a few things that should benefit warriors in general like improving stance or re inforce multitarget role with some tweaks on bosses, but drks specifically are fine in terms of dmg. Dont know how valid is my opinion on this topic, I just have a lvl 200 Drk(since 2019) on wich i have done every single boss on this server, up to you to decide.
Not really. See this thread here: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/hero-vs-dark-knight-dps-calculations.116318/ And also this post by Sparky95: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/sug...fed-irrelevant-post.161656/page-7#post-970310 It turns out that (pre-Berserk buff) that Drks would only outdamage Heros in certain (mostly extreme) cases, and that in most regular situations, Hero would out-DPS Drks (as I've experienced myself in LHC). To quote the above referenced thread: "To out damage a Hero, a DRK needs to have a range that is 16% higher while self buffed, 11.67% greater with just SE, or 6.44% greater with SE and SI (1356/1274). So, it's really only a question about range." Obviously the subsequent 5% damage boost to Berserk would even these numbers out somewhat, but Hero would still probably be ahead of Drk in most situations. Also, keep in mind that Heros have a more affordable end-game weapon compared to Drks, lower pot costs, and a far more relaxing playstyle (hold down the Brandish key while watching Netflix). Overall I think that some sort of adjustment does needs to be given to both Hero/Drk to make them more viable for end game bossing. As for weapons, I think that maybe some buff to Dragon Faltizan could be made to at least put it on par with the Sky Ski, even if it means crashing the price of Sky Skis a little (not necessarily a bad thing, especially for newer players). Or maybe even an attack speed increase for Berserk below a certain HP threshold (which would fit the theme of 'going berserk'), bringing the Faltizan's attack speed down to 2 and on par with Sky Ski when combined with both SI and booster. That would be pretty cool to see, though it might be a little OP.
So I wasn't wrong? There's this myth that DKs outdps Heroes when in reality at best they have equal damage and DK is just harder to play and harder to fund for no reason. Honestly at this point all warriors need a buff but DKs especially
I think you are being misled. Dark knights are definitely stronger than heroes by a decent margin. BGA is probably the only boss hero can outdps a drk at consistently (this is considering the fact the drk has good zerk control). Also, the misconception that drks are more expensive than heroes is also wrong, i'd argue that drks are a tiny bit cheaper due to the fact they don't have to wash as much to reach 30k hp. A endgame/perfect dragon claymore and sky ski are similar in value.
That may be need to be tested in a real world situation, but assuming a similar level of gear, it seems that a Hero would be able to outdo Drk at most levels of funding. For example, a 131 WA Stonetooth could be bought for ~2.5b, whereas a similarly priced Ski would only get you to ~120 WA or so. Do you have any examples to back this up? I feel as though there is some bias in balance discussions towards seeing things from the ultra-funded endgame player's point of view, but for the vast majority of players who do not have 60+ CGS, perfect or near-perfect weapons, ultra high attack pots, ready access to SE/SI, this is simply not relevant to them. The thread I linked did acknowledge a slight advantage for Drk at extreme levels of gear/funding (which may be larger now due to the Zerk buff). However, the argument is that Drks should be able to out-DPS Heroes due to the difficulty imposed by Zerking. Also, hp washing is hardly required for Heroes due to their naturally high HP, Achilles, and Power Guard. Drks can 'reach' 30k hp sooner because of HB, but due to the need to Zerk, their usable hp is effectively halved (unless they want to cripple their damage output and be a glorified HB mule). One might also choose to wash a Drk to 30k hp as well, which I'd argue is actually more useful to avoid tricky situations involving dispel.
Well, you kinda were/are wrong cs youre talking in present time, this threads are pre zerk buff. Btw there was an actual myth that Drks were stronger than heros even back then, mainly because krex and cwkpq were a daily meta bosses(wich theyre not anymore) and in those bosses Drk usually outperformed Heros(by a little margin) cause theres no RNG factor involved(altought back then CWKPQ warrior boss buffed could caught u offguard as drk), but in any other boss heros were better. You can see most of the replies in the mentioned reference are mine on favor of Drk buff, bcs it was needed, but now, as I said the Hero-Drk relation is balanced, you might being misled by this calculation: Range and %dmg boost are not the same thing at all, drk get more range naturally with the same gears than hero due multipliers, so even if the numbers are right, the conclusion is wrong bcs hes comparing apples with elephants there. Warriors are not in a good spot in the current meta, at all, but between them I would say that Drk is currently the king of the dumpster. I have tested this extensively right after the zerk buff, mainly cs a close friend of mine argued that the buff was broken(wich btw is the general idea on server rn, that heros are trash while drks are great, when in reality the difference is not really that big lol), the concusion is that Drk will outperform heros in most situations with the exception of VL, and some other bosses that as I said both heros and Drks are equally trash, but still the relation between them is balanced due the inconvenience of zerk, the viability and versatility of swords and Drks being a more hungry buff class. Things actually got better for Drks after the pet heal bug fix, that made zerk way easier in most bosses. Anyways even if Drks were actually down, touching ski sky directly is not the way to buff them
Gonna dox my drk gear and cgs but oh well. Here's a "real world example" using this calculator https://royals.ms/forum/threads/damage-calculator-all-classes.123479/, and the similarly priced weapons you suggested. Spoiler: drk Spoiler: hero Although calculators like these aren't perfect because they don't take into account things like defence, player error, etc, I find that they are good benchmarks for comparing damage. Note the DPM and DPS figures on the bottom left. This is comparing my DrK with your suggested ski, and a hero with my DrK's gear and your suggested ST. This is also a pretty charitable comparison in your favor, as I've given the ski no str, but I've given the ST the most str possible. Also, with my DrK's gear, the ST wouldn't even be wearable. Additional funding or sacrifices in base str would be needed to meet the ST's dex requirement. As you can see, even with all that, the DrK out-damages the hero by a pretty good margin. Source: I'm an early- to mid-game player and I have a DrK.
Sorry i'd like to take back my statement about drks' being slightly cheaper than heroes, i totally forgot about pots usage. So i think, in the long run, drks should just be a tiny bit more expensive than heroes. Power guard only reduces touch damage, so washing is still needed for heroes if they wanna do bosses like VL and some others. Drk's version of achilles is also slightly stronger than heroes/paladins' by 5%.
Alright thanks for the replies, so it seems that Drks and Heros may be relatively balanced after all with regards to each other, but I agree that warriors in general probably be adjusted in order to be more viable in the current bossing meta. Pally has CR which is considered a 'necessary' buff for many boss runs but it seems that this class is most often muled rather than actually played. HB is a useful party skill and may be necessary at times for low level ranged classes to get their Zhelms/HTP but becomes less relevant at higher levels of play as most players will wash/quest to hit certain HP thresholds without HB. DKs have a much easier time grinding in 3rd job than the other warriors (Dragon Fury is OP at Himes), but this is balanced out by some of the later game disadvantages involving Zerk, higher pot costs, and the generally higher cost of Skis/Pyrope Spears. I'd say in the current meta Heroes/Dark Knights are analogous to Archmages relative to the Buccaneer's Bishop. Stronger in pure DPS, but falls short in overall utility and often overlooked. Spoiler: About Hero vs Drk DPS This example isn't exactly what I was talking about, as it involves a theoretical pure DPS calculation (not a 'real world example') involving 54 CGS (a rather high level of funding), high attack pots (Onyx Apple), Echo, and SE/SI. Also, both characters are lvl 200. Also, the speed of an unbuffed Stonetooth Sword is 5, not 4 (not that it matters with SI and Booster). I redid the calculation with lvl 180 characters, using some of the gear on my existing Drk/Hero, putting the level of funding around 29 CGS (more realistic for 'mid-level' players), using stoppers, without Echo/SE/SI, and got 6.77 DPM for Drk vs 7.46 DPM for Hero. With Apple, Echo, SI, and no SE (your typical LHC run), the numbers evened out to 9.57 DPM for Drk, and 9.96 for Hero. I think these numbers do show that Drk can indeed out-DPS Hero in ideal situations, fully buffed with high attack gear but falls short of Hero when only self-buffed while using lower attack pots at a moderate level of funding, which is exactly the point I am making.
