Assassinate Change Suggestion

While I don't entirely agree with the Meso Guard changes, I can see why this was implemented. The issue lies with shadower MAINS being affected by this change, as 1/1 can affect you in darksight assassinate, and HT rocks dont care about your ds. The fact of the matter is, a seduce target is still required and by nerfing meso guard you are only simply changing the class that will end up being the seduce target or leaving it entirely up to RNG. I propose 2 solutions to this: either revert the mesoguard change(honestly the ability only saves you a couple of potions at this point) or, my preferred solution: remove darksight as a prerequisite to use assassinate. This 2nd solution would also remove the issue shadowers have with changing combos dependent on ping issues. to compensate for darksight not being required(and the removal of darksight cast time), additional delay could be added to assassinate in order to balance it. I think this will need a lot of dpm anaylsis to implement successfully but I wholeheartedly believe this is necessary, as the mesoguard changes have been met with a lot of backlash by both shadowers and nonshadowers alike.

 

Getting [skill locked/sealed in Dark Sight] + [1/1] during Zak/HT = risky death sentence. Causes shadowers to stay in dark sight since they cannot execute the next skill in the macro [assassinate/boomerang step]

Only solution is to immediately manual right click Dark Sight in the top right >>> manual pot ASAP before the next dmg hit occurs.

For people with higher ping using the macro [Dark Sight > Boomerang step > Assassinate], they may sometimes end up 'dashing' into the boss and then getting stuck in DS/skill lock/stunned. If [1/1] happens here, I currently cannot think of a solution to survive, and I cannot test this since I cannot use this macro order.

They're may be some better alternative solutions to these problems I listed above - this is just my current thoughts and opinions

 

Hmm... Maybe the proper fix for this issue will be allowing potion drinking in DS? Tho Idk how good of an idea it is to throw a bandaid over another bandaid solution

 

Meso guard being able to tank 1/1 isnt Shadower core identity, its Sed mule core identity

 

Think i kinda agree with that one. I guess I just associate shadowers with being the top tier seduce ever since the meta shifted from stance sedoos

 

There was quite a bit of discussion in Suggestions on shadower（dark sight）feel about changes to dark sight. Now given the context of the changed meso guard, perhaps some may find these more appealing. I suggest reading @LichWiz and @Incentv 's posts in there.

 

Quick offhand suggestion would be to have 1/1 just cancel your DS once you hit 1hp from 1/1 specifically. Warrants testing.
It's a devil's advocate suggestion for the recent criticism, but it may also be a bit too helpful. Worth at least a HT run with a group of test shads at least to feel it out.

I'm personally against DS potting and think there could be better middle roads between the ez earlier mg meta, and the current DS threat

 

This. I think it makes the most sense for 1/1 to dispel DS upon impact. However, I held off on saying this because, as you say, needs to be tested. Specifically, when non shads get hit with a 1/1, their pet pot triggers, whereas with the clunkyness of darksight, will pet pot also trigger for a shadower with this change? I know that even before this meso guard change, I was very attentive to my HP for this reason among the other dark sight horrors. Additionally, ds should be dispelled after a stun, which makes sense at least thematically (you're stunned out if your stealthiness, like Metal Gear Solid)

If I'm being quite honest, there has been so much discussion on this change, but so little mention of testing, I think this change is primarily a sed mule problem, not a shad problem. I'll test when bosses are fixed with video to see for myself.

 

hmm it seems like a lot of people aren't on board with just removing ds out of the equation entirely by not having it as a prereq to cast assassinate. Is there any reason in particular you think that is the case? Or why ds should remain a core part of shadower gameplay other than to have a thematically interesting skillset? Because i personally don't see the need or appeal of having to cast darksight everytime you want to use a key attacking skill. it feels clunky to use(highly affected by ping) and it leads to a whole slew of unwanted issues. Why not just remove it from the combo?

 

It makes shads too appealing. Extremely fast, tankiest, most evasive class in the game with lots of utility, smoke, taunt, excellent autonomy, no need to wash either. The risk, which actually isn't that bad at all once you rewire your brain to exit ds before you spam pots in an emergency, is an easy learning curve lots of new shads have growing pains with, just like berserk. Also it's beautiful.
Heros need ACA, buccs need ST, sairs need ship, etc, it's a setup combo that you have to manage and use wisely. I think it's a good inner class dynamic that rewards the gameplay risk, and assassinate has great damage that makes it worth it, especially since meso guard is so OP already

I will entertain Chakra possibly being used during DS as a suggestion though... unsure off the top of my head if this would have unforseen repercussions, seems like a fair middle ground though

but I'm definitely against DS potting/removing the ds setup for nate

 

You speak as if you have 0 experience with actually playing a Shad, you might as well argue into a mirror or a brick wall.

 

Have a 198 shad, wdym

 

I'm not sure what the general consensus would be regarding removing the ds requirement from assassinate. In my individual opinion, I despise the clunkyness of the combo (don't get me wrong, I absolutely love shad and think it's the most fun to play), and if the original design of the class was up to me, I would not implement it that way. However, I hesitate to take any firm stance on something like that until I'm able to observe some data on it (DPS with and without dark sight). There is also the nuance of making the class slightly more difficult to play, given that shadower is an absolute beast of a class in pretty much all areas (mobbing, bossing, survival, movement.)

It may be worth noting that, although an entirely different game at a point, in GMS assassinate was changed to not have ds as a requirement and instead it was optional for extra damage. Not saying that's something I want here, but when I played the modern shadower I completely ditched the dark sight. Then again, the class had some other significant changes as well at that point. But anyway, I digress.

 

If removing dark sight from assassinate is not the solution, then the best solution is for the pet to recover hp even while in dark sight, because in zakum most of the times during the assassinate combo I take stun and 1/1 of dark sight this increasing the chance of dying frequently.

 

It appears there are two reasonable/popular suggestions to the fix(other than reverting the change.
Either being able to pot in DS(it appears this one is up for debate) OR having 1/1 dispel darksight.
I think both of these changes achieve the same thing and I fail to see how one or the other is a "broken" mechanic. I think it's more of a quality of life thing than anything. Getting stunned + DS for a death sentence isn't a matter of skill in a lot of cases. Even if you see the animation coming, the fact that you have to change up your combo or halt it completely eats into shadower dpm, especially if you have to do this several times over the course of a bossfight. Many other classes don't have this issue, as they just have to hold down a button or macro for the most part uninterrupted. I don't think this mechanic makes a shadower more "difficult" to play, per se. It's just most people in this game prefer to be able to use their abilities with a certain flow. When a class feels good to play, more people will make it. @Cooler specifically, i don't think making a class more appealing is a bad thing. There are still plenty of mechanics and scenarios for veteran players to shine in and I don't think this undermines the time you put into the class. I think this is similar to the marksman pa situation where it would be canceled/can't be cast in the air. One could make the argument that you could just practice proper positioning and timing to make the best use of pa. But doing so limits the situations in which you can use it and -> becomes too much of a hassle to justify doing so. I think game design should strive to achieve satisfying, straightforward gameplay, which in turn makes it appealing for players and lowers the bar to entry while still maintaining key challenging aspects of gameplay. A 1/1 being unavoidable death in some cases isn't challenging gameplay, it's pure RNG. I would even argue that juggling several mules provides a more challenging aspect to gameplay than just piloting a single character(but that's a different discussion). What are your thoughts on this? I don't want this to get too derailed...

 

I personally never thought DS+Nate was clunky. If macros didn't exist, I wouldn't enjoy it as much. With a macro, it's plenty fast, and you can even cram bstep in there to cast even faster than it should depending on your macro combo.

I hosted/ran a million all shad HT runs, the shad experience and feel is something 2nd nature to me. Knowing what I'm doing and when, and when/if I'll be in DS is simply 2nd nature and if something goes wrong, I'm always poised to manually cancel and heal

The only reason I argued against Nate being a no condition/no risk/no DS cast is because the class already, in my opinion, has the most net positives of any class, (except d.kjanjar prices have gotten much higher than they were but that's due to popularity). Shads can sit back in most situations, sitting on the bosses face and not worry about a thing.
The biggest perk of shad, because of MG, is that this class doesn't need to HP wash at all. My 198 shad isn't washed a lick, and I had no problem being unwashed until auf, and even then, I wasn't far away with HP quest, and I could still mp wash if I wanted. So giving this already extremely strong, hard to kill class, even more advantages in bossing is short sighted, and why I think the best course would be for 1/1 to specifically dispel DS, bit again this warrants testing (tespia server when)

1/1 is an equalizing attack, I understand the move the team made, and I think brainstorming and collective creative input and feedback is better than an immediate rollback atm, such as the 1/1 ds dispel

Class identity is important, core gameplay is too. No DS makes shads heros, and it's counter to the nature of the skill itself, inherently risky but worth it, to a class with very little risk, even unwashed. Again, MG+shifter is insane, the ds risk makes those extreme perks worth the work 1 million percent. Without DS, it's not assassinate, and I do find it very satisfying personally, not even being a little bit contrarian, I've defended this position on the many times this topic comes up, and I jumped in this thread to try to amend the situation somehow with some ideas to stir creativity first before simply rolling back, because I understand where the team came from, same with soul arrow

 

i think even now, the fact that shads are still running HT like nothing happened is a testament to how awesome this job is. However, I know a couple people that live in certain areas have issues with darksight due to the delay. With myself personally, sometimes the ds+ass+bstep works and sometimes there is a MASSIVE delay before ds finishes. Sometimes ds+bstep+ass works and sometimes it refuses to proc. I do not think it's fair to say it's not clunky when everyone has unique ping situations. If it wasn't an issue so many wouldn't bring it up. Simply saying "it isn't an issue for me" is not fair to the rest of the community. In terms of survivability, shadowers still stand on the top in a lot of cases so that is a win!

 

Here to echo input+ideas from other threads, and more

• Possible dark sight dispel when struck by 1/1
• Ability to cancel ds by three possible keys, reg attack, assassinate, or pressing ds again while in ds
• Ability to leave ds when stun or sed by being able to either press reg attack, nate, or ds again, but remain stunned/seduced
• Stun/seduce automatically dispels DS
• bosses can dispel DS with their actual mass dispel skill (this could also be beneficial if stunned/sed then instantly dispelled
• Ability to use chakra in DS with same rates/risk, and possibly ability to use chakra when stunned, since potting/pets and natural hp/mp regen can happen during stun
• Hero's Will can will out of all abnormal status, not just seduce
• Can use HW during DS
• ...can use Steal to exit DS as well, and perhaps with increased steal rates

All worth examination and testing IMO

Unrelated assassinate changes:

• Can use Assaulter to cancel assassinate any time (great for when you get KB in HT and are stuck doing the Nate animation all the way down)
• 4th hit can only proc if you are holding left or right, not facing left or right. This will halt the bug that forces your fourth hit and sends you forward accidentally

 

Part of the issue is that if 1/1 happened when a player is in Dark Sight during stun or seduce, you need to click out of Dark Sight in order to heal after stun or seduce ended.

I think it would better to dispels dark sight in bosses when 1/1 happened.
It allows players to react quickly to heal.