Buffing Arch Mages?

It's not a terrible argument though. The point of having different classes is exactly that: different classes. They do different things well.

Arch Mages are the richest class in the game. You have consistent, steady income with petri leech selling with little overhead cost that are trivial in the long run. Getting your character to 1 hit petris, especially as a Fire Poison, is extremely easy. Multiple people have achieved that with less than 500m of startup funding.

And Fire Poisons have one of the fastest third job by far, a section of the game most classes (except Chief Bandits) struggle with.

Arch Mages are also the fastest class to hit level 200 because of how early they can 1 hit petris.

Fire Poisons are the best farmers in game with the highest ultimate skill base damage, so you can amass vast quantities of items easier than anyone else.

And you are also one of the few summon farming characters in game, so you can amass vast quantities of items easier than most everyone else without doing anything more than recasting a summon every 2 to 3 minutes.

You have the second highest mobility in the game, outsped by only Night Lords.

And you have one of the highest survivabilities in the game with no penalty, constructed by the game and boss design or imposed by other players as an expectation of the meta, to not spend a single AP Reset washing.

Your class is already good, and excels far above all other classes in everything except 1v1 DPS and, by extension, bossing.

And I really don't understand why bishops being able to 1 hit petris is a big deal to how you view arch mages.

If it makes you feel better, every single bishop who can 1 hit petris requires Echo of Hero, Ssiws Cheese, or Onyx Apples to do it. Except me and the bishops that equip the gear I made.

My point is, appreciate your class for what it is and don't try to make it into what it's not. Your class is good, so recognize all the good it is, how much you have over all the other classes in the game, and don't obsess over the one thing it does badly, which is 1v1 DPS. Use its inherent weakness as motivation to gear up and achieve those bossing goals anyway.

There's no reason to buff a class that already excels so much.

Just be glad you're not a paladin because that's the class that has literally nothing going for it at all.

 

Exactly. Arch Mages are suppose to have significantly higher damage than Bishops due to their lack of party buffs and even tho they already do, it is not as it was intended to be since Bishops here can equip elemental weapons without any penalties. As I have taken you and other Bishops into consideration, I agree'd that a fixing those weapons isn't a good idea so I proposed a buff to Arch Mages to maintain that gap is suppose be in between them.

Bishops can sell Skeles leech. Its a bit less income but they also get splits from boss runs. Unless I got it wrong and it was that they don't get splits but get EXP instead, not sure about that part. I just remember some Bishops complaining because they didn't get one or the other.

True, but is looking at third job a good way to determine how they do at end game?

Debatable. If you have the time to grind several hours a day, then yes, Arch Mages are the fastest to get to 200. If your time is limited tho, bossing gives more EXP/time spent.

Debatable too. It is indeed the easiest 1 hit Petris and easy 1 hit for RoR, But when it comes to Obv the damage penalty makes it that a Bishop would very likely have a better time there than a F/P.

As long as Magic Guard isn't dispelled, but since the chances of that aren't that high here, I'll give you that and agree that Arch Mages have one of the highest survivabilities.

That's like saying a car has the newest paint job, cleanest windows and durable tires but drives at 5 km/hr at most. All those previous pros are all great, but the most important part, to get you from point A to point B, is seriously lacking. MapleStory's most important part, is its endgame and that is to get stronger to kill stronger monsters, aka bosses, and Arch Mages are seriously lacking there. Like I've already said, I am no where asking Arch Mages to have good 1v1 DPS but to simply have something that is less horrible than it already is.

I never said that its a big deal, I just said that its a bad argument to use when talking about class balancing. Saying that Arch Mages are significantly better than Bishops because they can 1 hit Petris earlier is like saying that I/Ls are significantly better than F/Ps since they can 1 hit Obv, not even earlier but just being able to 1 hit since a F/P will never be able to.

But I am not. Arch Mages are suppose to have good AOE and terrible 1v1 dps, and these changes still stays true to that identity. They also are supposed to have a large gap in damage between them and Bishops, and that is one of the goals of this proposition too.

As Paladins obviously do not AOE abilities as good as Arch Mages, could you confirm that that they also have worse 1v1 DPS too? Only then I could agree that they have nothing going on for them atm.

And if that is the case, like I've already said, why buff their 1v1 DPS instead of their mobbing capabilities? By picking the 1v1 DPS side of things is basically confirming when I say that MapleStory's endgame is to get stronger to kill stronger monsters, aka bosses.

 

I think OP should just play more classes and quit (or take a break from f/p) to gain more perspective

 

This disregards that in new source, archmages DID get buffed while bishops got nothing. So you're essentially arguing that archmages should get an even larger buff relative to bishops than the one they already received. This is not a problem in and of itself, but you should account for that in your arguments.

 

The same happened back in GMS. Meteor and Blizzard got buffed but Genesis didn't (If I am wrong here, please correct me). The difference here is that Bishops can use elemental weapons, giving them a noticeable damage boost. And yes, if we're purely talking about GMS, in v62 the weapon's bug wasn't fixed yet I think, but at least from my perspective, MapleRoyals is trying to emulate the best Pre Big Bang MapleStory experience and not stay purely v62 because it isn't anymore.

 

I think the nail to the coffin on this thread was the same argument that can be made for NL's having buffed mobbing skills. Sure, it won't harm NL's since NL's DPS is purely from TT, but it just doesn't make sense to make them a" better" all around class. Mages should stay as they are - godly mobbers but terrible single target DPS. There is absolutely NO reason for them to have single target damage buffed just because "it won't do anything".

 

Yes, but v86 is not our base version. From a v62 perspective, archmages have received a buff relative to bishops. Again, if you want to argue that the buff should be "greater" it's fine, but it's not necessarily an argument that's going to gain a lot of traction given that it has had a noticeable impact on the class balance already. (Compare the 1h levels at ulu 2 and petris to where they were in old source and you'll see what I mean.)

You might have better luck focusing solely on the v86 buffs that didn't make it through though (and I personally am in favor of buffing para and cl such that they are "always" the optimal skill to use in a 1v1 situation if nothing else.)

 

Like I've already said, the difference is that that is custom while mine isn't. And if NLs did get buffed mobbing capabilities in Pre Big Bang, I don't see why anyone would object to it.

As I've already said too, if these propositions were to be accepted that doesn't change that fact.

Well I guess that's where it comes to a stalemate for us. I see MapleRoyals as the potential ideal Pre Big Bang MapleStory private server while you see it as a GMS v62 private server that has deviated from its original purpose. Since we cannot agree on that, there is nothing more to say when it comes to Arch Mages and Bishops as you are indeed right; from a GMS v62 perspective Arch Mages are already stronger, more than they should be, then Bishops here.

Apart from that additional 5%/10% I proposed to Elemental Amplification, nothing else is custom as they're all from v86; there's the v86 skill changes for all classes in my original post if you want to check them out. Only reason I proposed the additional buff is like I said, I see this as the potential ideal Pre Big Bang PS, but if we had to stick to v62 as close as possible, I wouldn't really mind if it weren't to be included but I'd just find it weird why certain things are allowed to pass but others aren't.

 

But this is a v62 server ??

 

A lot of things here isn't v62 tho. Like I said, if it was purely v62 and intended to stay that way I'd shut up and gladly respect that but that's not the case.

 

For everyone's sake, Yes

 

As someone who does both, I disagree with that so strongly, it's not even funny. I'll use my own HT party as an example, though I know this will differ depending on the group of friends. I'd say that my friends and I are an average - perhaps above average - group in terms of funding. We finish a HT with a full party in usually approximately an hour and 30-40 minutes. Sometimes more, sometimes less. The time it takes to organize that run on the day of ranges between 15 minutes to half an hour, given that people have to pot, recharge, walk there, etc etc. The time it took to get those people to agree on a time (or recruit right before hand) in the first place ranges between 15 minutes to half an hour as well. So we're looking at around 2-2.5 hours, and that's with us being very gogogogogo and moving as quickly as we can. Especially in HT, between bishops dying, head dispel, hand dispel, dark wyverns, lack of reliable boss hp, bishops needing to take care of sed while perhaps a body part is dying, 100% hs isn't always possible. We're close, but definitely not 100%.

But, assuming 100% hs every time, based off of Matt's thread, we know the total amount of EXP for HT. If we divide equally by five after HS (assuming a full party where bishop does not leech exp) - which isn't even accurate because not everyone will be doing equal damage - that's 103,243,929.6 exp [disclaimer - idk the exact party formula in new source anymore]. So roughly 40-50m exp an hour depending how you strike it, and that's on a good day. From what I understand, grinding as a mage in end game locales gives you far more than that - particularly at ToT, but even at petris. I myself only main a bishop (not a mage), so I can't speak for that from first hand experience, but I know my friends say they consistently average around 100m exp an hour, perhaps a tad less or more.

So if we just take those 2-3 hours as someone who has limited time, if anything, grinding is a better use of time, as it doesn't require any prior planning. Bossing is so much more than just the time spent inside the cave.

It's not just a little less. It's significantly less when you compare skills to petris. In addition, please compare the trajectory of petris leech prices and compare it to HT book prices?

The "move" (if we want to call it that) was because the client for v62 has always been quite unstable - this is a known fact across many private servers that have used that version - which contributed greatly to many of the issues we had in old source. Moving to a later version was supposed to help address those instability issues, and that move inherently caused changes that were sometimes unpreventable and others were QoL changes as you've mentioned. From what I have understood in my almost three years with this server is that changing the base client version and the other changes you have referenced that have deviated from v62 were never a part of a secret desire to move on from v62. I have always been under the impression that this was and will always be a v62 at heart.

Of course, I fully concede that I could be wrong.

 

FWIW, all of my bs friends tell me that skele leech is basically impossible to sell right now

 

Even if I were to maximize my time as an attacker and Toad 1x, Krex 2x, HT 2x, and Zak 2x, I'm looking at ~500m exp in ~7-8hours

• Toad duo= 120m exp
  Takes 90 minutes for setup/bossing.
• 2x Krex duo = 106m exp
  Generally takes 5-10 minutes to setup and 30-35min/krex. - 70minutes
  
• 2x Zak duo= 45m exp
  Generally takes 10-15minutes to setup and 35min/zak. - 80 minutes.
• 2HT 5Attackers w/ full HS and kicking bishop = 240-260m exp
  Generally takes 10-15minutes to setup (even with a set party beforehand), and most people need a break between runs. 2 runs takes, EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVELY, 30 minutes of setup, and takes 80-90minutes per run. - 200 minutes.

And this takes 7-8 hours assuming you have people to run as soon as you start asking which is almost never the case lol. Realistically you add 2+ hours to the time, and you also don't even do everything everyday.


-> I used to no life grind on my AM and would get 90m/h @ petris and 120m/h @ob2.
-> I run HT with people who are fairly above average (55atkgear+nearperf/perf weapon), and generally get 125m per HT, and every run, organizing time included, takes no less than 1 hour and 40 minutes. Which is to say HT gives maybe 75m/h. maybe.
-> If you aren't getting 75m/h at petris then you're garbage lmfao.

Before you start quoting all my shit and coming up with inane retorts, I'd like to note that people do not respect your opinion. Why do you figure that is? Literally everyone here is disagreeing with you, but you swear that we're all wrong and you're right lmao.

 

This is spicier than my butthole after mexican food

 

Probably because their AoE skill can't kill, it can only take HP to 1. They then have to use their normal attack to finish them off. So even if they had the best AoE damage in the game, they're still a 2 hit kill. On top of that, their AoE has a cool down.

So buffing their single target damage makes sense. And yes, their single target damage is worse then an AM. I even posted a SS in my last post.

 

Speak for yourself.

Most people who play pallies enjoy the unique grind that isn't just spamming a full nap aoe, and just because they don't fit into ideal bossing parties (like so many that aren't BM and NL) doesn't mean they are useless or as you put it "has literally nothing going for it".

L> for those tasty patch notes.

 

Not sure why you seem offended. I didn't say that paladins are a terrible class, don't play one. I said that paladins are a class that has literally nothing going for it, as in it does absolutely nothing better than all the other classes, which is true.

The point of my post you quoted was to point out all the things that arch mages excel in and hopefully get the OP to appreciate what arch mages are and accept what they aren't, showing why people, including myself, think the class doesn't warrant a buff to improve the one thing it didn't excel in.

And my point was also that instead of buffing arch mages that have so much going for them that paladins are more deserving of a buff so they attract more than 1% of the playerbase to make one. Most people who play this game don't enjoy grinding at sub 5% an hour at Temple of Time and most people who play this game don't enjoy being left out of the bossing scene because yes, it's a fact that the meta consists of killing bosses as quickly and efficiently as possible and I don't know of anyone who wants to take a paladin.

I don't think paladins are useless by the way, but I see how you jump to that conclusion. Paladins have a niche role in being the class that does nothing better than any other class and largely solitary gameplay focused on grinding due to boss exclusion (feel free to correct me, this is just what I understand). So in my eyes, paladins are the challenge class, and only two level 200 paladins exist that I'm aware of. In two years, approaching three, no one else has hit level 200 on paladin. Paladins are a class for those who truly love to grind, which most people don't, but you do, so good for you!

Just because other people have fun in different ways from you doesn't mean they think how you have fun is bad.

It's just a fact that the paladin class is objectively bad because it has nothing it can do that another class does ten times better.

 

Interesting way to see pallys. I always thought pallys should have been an attacker class that kind of went wrong in gms. I don’t know nearly enough about pallys but I imagined them to be a lower dps bowser with a lot of defensive skills (and lowering mob def, etc). Because of the current NLstory meta, pallys have been excluded in the bossing scene (along with the fact that no one actually finds a decent pally).

I disagree the pallys are suppose to be almost a solo story playstyle. They should have been a highly defensive warrior class with (possible) high party defense and magic defense skills. I want to see more pally in the bossing scene. But since this server has grown to be a niche high DPS and HT server, the lower dps classes (pally, bucc, shad) have been unrightfully pushed out. My mindset isn’t the same for A/Ms, since mages were still NEVER bossers. Not efficient ones at least.