Buffing Arch Mages?

@Penny @auntjaemima

I'd admit that when I said that bossing gives more EXP/h is from my limited bossing experience here and as you guys have pointed it out, its different for everyone. I'll take that back and admit that yes, Arch Mages have the easiest time to get to 200. No need to get personal here. Nothing is suppose to be funny or insulting and I couldn't care less about being respected or not. All I want here is to discuss frustrating things that are going in in the game at the moment. As for when you say that everyone disagrees with me, unless you take a consensus of the whole MapleRoyals playerbase and have 51% agree to it, all I see here is just the most vocal members of the forum community disagreeing.

Even taking into account who levels faster, I fail to see how this is contradictory with my proposition. Yes, I've decided to play a class that levels faster but I also accepted that at endgame I'll be weaker while others have decided to pick classes that are slower at leveling accepting that at endgame they'll be stronger; my proposition does not change those facts.

And to answer to this

Are you telling me that all the skill changes that happened here were to match exactly what 62 used to be, since Old Source skills were bugged? I admit I haven't check for myself, but seeing how there's "Current Game" and "New Source", its only fair to assume that the "Current Game" skills are the original ones of v62 and everything else has been modified.

I guess only Matt could confirm if what he had in mind was to create the ideal v62 PS or just an ideal Pre Big Bang PS.

That sounds like Poison Mist, but instead of having to go around the map to cast it, you press one button and it produces the same result. That seems significantly better than what their other warrior counterparts have. What they lack in single target DPS they make it up for their mobbing capabilities.

I still fail to understand how it makes any sense to buff their single target damage instead of their mobbing capabilities. Just saying it "makes sense" isn't very convincing imo. And about being weaker than Arch Mages 1v1, like I've already said, you have what you've seen and I have what I've seen. Unless someone comes up with specific numbers as I have, comparing them both to their extreme maxes, I will not be convinced.

And what you want and don't want to see is purely subjective. Forget the meta, forget what people think. If you look at the game objectively, you have damage dealers, tanks, and support. Arch Mages fill the damage portion and Paladins are a mixture of damage and tank, right? Now then, even if Arch Mage's sole role is damage while Paladin is split between two, that doesn't mean that Arch Mages should have a higher single target damage then Paladins because of my next point. After those three categories, you got classes that in theory, excel at 1v1, Corsairs, and classes that excel at AOE attacks, Bishops; mobbing and single target. When it comes to that, Arch Mages come close to being top of at the AOE attack category and Paladins are a mixture of both. If I had to throw out approximate numbers, for a Arch Mage it would be, AOE = 8/10 and single target = 2/10 while for a Paladin it would be mobbing 5/10 and single target 5/10. Both come up to 10/10 in the end. If we wanted to talk about mindsets, from my point of view, if you look at the history of MapleStory as a whole, Arch Mages have not only be decent bossers but excellent ones for the majority of the time, so I could easily argue that Arch Mages should be good bossers here too. But if you look at it objectively, they are not good bossers here as I've explained it with my point system and I respect that, which is once again, why my proposition does not change what they are here.

You can also say that I want Arch Mages to be buffed is subjective too, and it is to a certain degree, but the fact that the endgame of MapleStory is getting better equips, killing stronger monsters aka bosses, that's why accepting what is proposed here would work as it contributes to what the game is in itself, not what I or anyone else thinks. That is also why, if y'all have gotten it yet, I am not against but for a Paladin buff in there 1v1 department since they also are lacking. I'm simply explaining how it doesn't make sense to specifically buff one's 1v1 capabilities but not another's while both are lacking.

 

No they haven't. You are fundamentally incorrect. Stop assuming that you're right lmao.
Mages were literally always intended to be S-rank Mobber/Farmers/Grinders. They were never meant to be bossers.
Bishops were always intended to be B-rank Mobber/Farmers/Grinders and S-rank Supports; hence, the reason that GMS had -25% holy damage on ele wands.

I don't get how you can sit here and even bother making shit up lmfao.

 

Pish needs buffing

 

First off, sorry if you thought I was being insulting. Nowhere in my post did I say anything remotely attacking you, and I thought I was being quite fair in my analysis, but apologies nonetheless.

It's relevant because you were using that point to counter @Shiyui when she stated that Arch Mages have everything going for them and you're trying to make them better at the one thing they're bad at. So now that you agree that they do level fastest, we're back to that point. You're trying to buff the one weakness your strongest-in-everything-else class has.

As is stated in that post, "In order to take advantage of the some of the new content we plan to offer, we are now using a v83 client. Does that mean we are a v83 or a v62 or a vxx server? No, we will continue to be a nostalgic server like we always have been with an updated client and a server built from scratch by Kevin."

As I said, I, and many other members of this community, have always believed that the move over to v83 was not a desire to move forward from the servers original purpose, but simply to help address instability issues. The skill changes that happened were 1) helping to fix broken skills and 2) a handpicked few for QoL purposes, as I already said in my previous post. As Sila stated, "Some handpicked skills of less popular 4th job classes have also received a v72 - v86 buff." Buff. So no, the specific skill changes you're referencing weren't to match v62, they were to help buff some classes that the staff believed needed it, hence why a lot of people in this thread are frustrated that your (already very strong) class already received a buff yet you're asking for a 1v1 buff.

At the end of the day, if your point is that you just want things to be generically pre-big bang (which is a very, very broad time period) without caring for what version this server is, then you're right, we have nothing to discuss. If you don't see a problem with having a class that's the best in everything else getting buffed in its one weakness (a weakness that's supposed to lend to class diversity and balance and etc), then we have nothing to discuss. If you don't think it's bad precedent to buff the strongest class in everything other than 1v1 for 1v1, as other classes that are strong in 1v1 (like NLS, sairs) may then ask to be buffed in other more mobbing things, then yeah we also have nothing to discuss because I think that's hella bad.

 

No need to. Hate or love me all you want, it doesn't matter to me as long as we stay on topic of discussing about the game.

To her post yes, but to grand scheme of things, no. As I've said to her:

You can disagree with that endgame I've presented and I'd love to hear why, but if you're also in favor of buffing Paladin's 1v1 specifically, then that's contradictory.

Do you still think buffing Night Lord and Corsair's mobbing abilities would be a bad idea even if as its has been done in Pre Big Bang and doesn't affect the balance of how things are currently? If yes, then yeah, we are at a stalemate here. I thank you for your time to explain your point of view.

 

This thread is going nowhere lol

 

lol i still don’t know wtf is going on

 

IDK why we spend all this time posting feedback that'll never be acknowledged (good or bad) RIP AP resets @ Albert.

 

1v1 is all pallies have really. Heaven's hammer isn't even worth talking about, and their mobbing ability is otherwise dependent on being next to monsters, they have an arguement for a buff. Mages do not.

 

How is it not worth talking about? Its basically Poison Mist but on a way larger scale meaning you don't have to move around the map and you don't have to wait 40 seconds before the monsters drain down to 1 HP. Plus when we're talking about high level grinding spots such as Skeles and ToT, Paladins are the only ones that have access to pretty much all the elements to make themselves stronger and can freely switch as they choose fit depending on the situation. Paladins are a mixture of AOE and 1v1 damage.

Using the logic of "every class has their own specialties" and saying that Arch Mages's is AOE attacks, when applying the same logic to Paladins the answer is they are jack of all trades but master of none. Why can't Heaven's Hammer CD's be reduced or buff their other mobbing capabilities instead? By agreeing that Paladins need a 1v1 buff is agreeing that the endgame of MapleStory is getting better equips, killing stronger monsters aka bosses. You either agree with one way of thinking completely or the other, can't be half half as that shows favoritism towards Paladin and discrimination towards Arch Mages. If that how it is for you, its fine and I get it, no point in trying to change your mind.

 

They have access to most elements, but even with that, they still tend to get outdamaged on most mobs, of pretty much arbitrary size. They are one of the least mobile classes in the game, have probably the smallest attack range, and HH has a 20 second cooldown, and can only hit things that are on screen (which is not quite analogous to mist which not only lingers, but can cover the entire map simultaneously to do more damage.) Not to mention, you're comparing a 3rd job skill to a 4th job one.

 

I wouldn't compare Heaven's Hammer to Meteor because one class is suppose to be close to the top when it comes to AOE attacks and the other is a jack of all but master of none. Can we at least agree that although Paladins have worse 1v1 than Heroes and Dark Knights, maybe even on weak to element too, but have better mobbing capabilities? If not, please enlighten me.

 

Heroes and DrK outdamage pallies on multi target too.

Heaven's hammer is also a skill that pallies realistically get late game. Mist is a skill FP mages get at 70. That alone speaks volumes, as it's essentially useless while bossing and at that point, a minuscule increase in grinding.

 

Hmm I guess I was unclear with my question; the goal of it was to ask if Paladins have a better time grinding at Skeles/ToT compared to Heroes and Dark Knights. Since using the logic of "what class is suppose to do what", Heroes and Dark Knights have a better time bossing due to being better at 1v1 while Paladins have a better time grinding as 1v1 damage is not their specialization. And yes, Mist is obtained at level 70 but Heaven's Hammer is at least just as good if not better then it when it comes to grinding. Basically for a F/P at 120 it goes from good mobbing to excellent mobbing and 1v1 is terrible to less terrible. For a Paladin, it goes from bad mobbing to good mobbing and 1v1 is less terrible to decent. Using the logic mentioned ^, both of these classes already does exactly what they were designed to do so none of them deserves any changes, but obviously, as I have said countless times already, I disagree with that logic since "getting better equips to kill stronger monsters aka bosses" is the endgame of MapleStory which is why I support 1v1 boosts for all three of those classes.

As I also do not play a Paladin, I just did some quick googling, and I'm not quite sure why you call Heaven's Hammer useless. Not only its good for grinding purposes, but it doesn't seem to be bad for bossing either.

Also, why would a Paladin get that skill late game only? As it brings everything down to 1 HP, I don't see why they wouldn't max that asap instead of maxing other things. Kind of like how a F/P Mage maxes Mist asap since with it maxed out they don't need to do any significant damage; just gotta hit the mobs once so they die.

 

According to a dps chart that I came across recently, AM will outdamage a paladin with para/cl + summon (this is at the lower end, but it is still the only class aside from bishop that is outdamaged by a/m)
No matter how you spin it, Paladin is in a completely different tier when it comes to viability than every other class in the game. It loses to all other warriors in most mobbing situations (unless you're attacking a large mob that has an elemental weakness) and if you go HH first, you can only use the attack once every 20 seconds. Which means unless you can clear an entire map in 2 HH, you're SLOWER in 4th job than a 3rd job f/p. Pretty much the only situation that it can outdamage the other warriors in is on a single target with a holy or lightning weakness (and those are rarely situations that warriors are in to begin with, and still is outdamaged by any other dps class in this situation aside from maybe bucc?)

Not only that, it is the one class that could not receive the planned buff in new source due to a client bug. Arguing for Paladin buffs is a COMPLETELY different ask than looking for AM buffs. Period.

 

I know about that DPS chart as it was posted here on forums and it highly inflated an Arch Mage's damage. 70k with Paralyze takes a lot more funding (Level 200 + 200b equips + Echo + Cheese) then 70k with Blast. Also for Paralyze, the strongest 1v1 Arch Mage skill, it will never go past that limit even if you throw 500b funding because magic is capped at 1999. From what I heard a 200b Buccaneer matches a 40b Night Lord. Would you then say that Buccaneers are stronger than Night Lords because that one person could out damage a 10b Night Lord?

I don't think Dark Knights and Heroes can do up to 3m damage in 1 hit across the whole screen. Yes, there's a CD, but that still seems pretty good.

Maybe, but does it take more than 40 seconds to clear a whole map when all you have to do is hit the mobs once after HH?

But if we're going with the logic of "what class is supposed to do what", Paladins aren't suppose to be able to compete with Dark Knights or Heroes when it comes to 1v1 at all.

 

Why not try casting your ultimate only every 20 seconds. Then you'll realise how detrimental it is to have a cooldown on a skill

 

Holy shit

 

Guys keep it on track or I'll close the thread.