There's only 2 things I want for BM's. 1. Hamstring shot to work on bosses 2. Concentrate to not be affected by boss dispel
haha bucc giving SI to warrior feels like NL giving SE to Bowman "I am wasting my DPS to boost you, so you can catch up and at least see my tail light"
So I. Was confirmed by admins multiple times in multiple threads, remove damage cap not an option. One example is https://royals.ms/forum/threads/max-damage-cap-cant-be-changed.174194/ yes I was limited by damage cap A LOT. BUT, I still feel paladin is fine. Unfunded paly is damn strong, and if you HH off cd at bosses with multiple target (HT) it makes a huge difference. Again, people just like standing in one spot and smacking something without learning/trying better strats or positions. Sairs are so fine where they are, this was argued so many times in many threads. People just want it to be easier and not try harder. One example is https://royals.ms/forum/posts/1055839/ people just need to learn better party composition and sair is massively stronger when paired with smokescreen+si/tl. @Geyforlife boat damage cap idea is cool though. But uh, buffing sair is just scary. It's so fucking strong if your good at it. Hero combo passive could be cool. MM/BM dps buff might work. But I'm strongly against any buff propositions when the single target dps thread is used as a example. That is with overpowered 60-70 weapon attack gear and does not convey the statistics accurately for the average population of players using 30-40 weapon attack gear and non perfect weapons. The point is, class diversity and balances varies from boss to boss and a single target thread is a poor example. On MANY horntails, the OPTIMUM party comp I have come across is a mix of single/multi, along with weird and different techniques are tried. People are just stuck in ways and don't think outside the box. Honestly, call me a fan girl, @Geyforlife is just the best when it comes to these class buff/nerf options and I generally agree with everything he says in most of these threads. @Kenny just take on my man here as a class balancing consultant and everything will be good lol
Just a simple question then if you think pallies are fine. Given the funds, would you invest in perfecting an AUF helm on a pally or would you rather perfect it on other classes instead? Sure, it's super endgame, but isn't that the goal of progressing your characters? If I know that my character is gonna be handicapped at the endgame, why would i invest that much time and effort in my character? Theres a reason why there are so few players that will invest and commit a lot of time to the pally class as opposed to other classes (esp NL), simply because the end game for pally is lacking. Most pally players i know (except @Haplopelma the mad lad) shelf their pally characters the moment it reaches 200 instead of improving it simply because of damage cap issues. I understand where you're coming from, single target dps thread does not showcase a class true capability. However, it does point out a paradox. How is it that a single target specialist class such as MM, loses to a multi target specialist class such as HERO in a single target damage test? You could say MM provides an invaluable buff like SE, which compensates for their lack of damage, but then again, bucc does that as well and does amazing single target damage.
Yes and no. I love paladin, I main paladin to 200 in GMS even though it was garbage. I have favoritism. Also, my opinion on perfect auf helm is that's it's just too expensive and unobtainable anyways, so I wouldn't get it on any class of mine. I feel like even if paladin has a cap, that cap is very hard to hit as is. I'm not much for appeasing the 1%, even if I'm considered one of them. Yes that may be the goal, get all the maxed gear, but meh. My goal switched from hitting cap to keeping new players and I don't care for the range grind anymore. Sorry I couldn't answer that question to the point you tried to make, I just disagree with even trying to get the auf helm in the first place. I don't need to have it to have fun. But if I could elaborate to why paladin is fine, I'm gonna mention my Lord and savior @Haplopelma me and him had this argument a lot. I've given up cuz he's right. I was on the side of buff paladin before, not anymore. But 2h sword > Bw all day for life lol get triggered haplop. all this "make crash no cool down" is crazy to me but so crazy it might work? but then wtf is even the point of weapon/magic cancel? Idk, I feel that paladin is fine. I think just the ridiculously strong people feel it's weak compared to NL/Sair. when realistically it's not. Especially on holy charge.
This is not true, as you can see from geybrian's calculation, even on gizers at 51 cgs, pallies have already started to have DPS loss due to dmg cap. Not caring about range or improving your character is great and all but i'm afraid not everyone shares the same sentiments as you. I won't say that i speak for the majority, but you can't deny that there are pally players who would like to see their paladins have an equal progression as other classes in terms of dps progression at the end game. It's not about it being weaker than other classes or what not. It's about it being handicapped due to dmg loss caused by dmg cap. There's something fundamentally wrong with the class if the dps output between a 13k range pally and a 14k pally is similar (just an example).
it gets down to that damage cap can't be increased unless they working on some magic juju that we don't know about. I asked admin so many times I'm not gonna ask again until I get a dm saying, "hey Pablo, you and everyone else can stfu now, we raised damage cap" prior discussions almost always result in a 50/50 split of opinion on buffing paladin further. that dps loss is very small though, and that cgs is above average imo. I don't think we need to go into, "hey everyone, whats you're cgs average?" here on the forums because most of us here are tryhards that have high attack. meanwhile in-game, most of the population is casual that dreams of a 40cgs+decent weapon. maybe the intent of playing paladin is reserved for the passionate and not DPS players, as it always was in the past? not a fair argument really, just a thought that why it got buffed to what it is today and I have been told it won't get buffed more. I just wanted to play a paladin and be relevant, and my wish came true. then there's MM still battling depression. may you be buffed to be relevant my MM friends, dreams do come true?
I am going to reply to the past comments about paladin viability. Sadly, paladin is gimped when it comes to 1h bw or 2h sword. The damage cap becomes extremely relevant quickly (probably even quicker than 52 cgs for bw). However, paladin mains should realise that there is another option for super end game player. If you wanna make paladin an insanely strong character, start looking into 1h swords and shield builds. Cap is extremely hard to hit and you benefit from a stable range. It would be insane dps hitting 180-200k every blast. If people considered 1h sword builds, they could start imagining a perfected auf helmet. But with the popularity of 2h sword, there is no desire or need to invest in gear for paladin. That being said, the problem with paladin isn't the dps. It is the fact that the class is rendered useless due to crash mules. I have suggested many times solutions to this problem but they are never heard. Imo, the best solution to crash is to make it a buff allowing you to bypass def/mdef cancel. This does multiple things. For example, crashing 1s early makes crash useless as it is right now. With this change, crash would be a bit more versatile. The more interesting thing about this change is that it forces parties to have a crash mule in the party to apply the buff quickly. This will make juggling crash mules annoying and tiresome. I would even make this buff really small so that a mule with 123 jump cannot just jump and cast it. Lastly, all these balance changes are based on a team approach. Paladin is, and remains one of the strongest classes for solo play. This class destroys bosses, farms extremely efficiently and has high natural hp. TLDR: Paladin getting more and more useless because of power creeping. Omegarich players should start considering 1h sword builds. Crash is insanely broken on mules and makes paladin an extremely undesirable class. Unless this is changed, there is no reason for paladins in the current meta. Paladin solo play > Paladin party play
Technically Advance Combo Attack is already a passive skill, the actual buff itself is the 3rd job Combo Attack skill. I know that's probably what you meant, but just wanted to clarify that for those who might not know how it works Anyways, adding to this, something I'd love to see for Heroes is to make their Panic and Coma skills a more relevant part of their arsenal, instead of pretty much just using Brandish. I feel like it was Nexon's intention to make these skills better at 4th job with Advanced Combo Attack allowing up to 10 orbs instead of the 5 with normal combo attack, but due to how other skills scale up with CA, it doesn't make these two skills worth losing your orbs for. As far as trying to fix this, my idea would be to make it so once you unlock Advanced Combo Attack, the damage buff for all skills you'd normally gain for building up orbs is just applied to you as long as you have the buff active, irregardless of the orbs you currently have. Now, the number of orbs you have still would apply to the strength of Panic and Coma, but now you could use those skills without losing out on damage for your other skills, making them actually worth using. Now, I'm not entirely sure whether making this change would make heroes too strong or not, given that you both no longer have a delay to reach your optimal damage and more access to Panic and Coma. If that is the case, maybe just toning down or getting rid of the +30% damage that ACA provides would help balance that out a bit.
Just my 2 cents. I think paladin is at a great position right now as a general supportive + attacker unit Trying to make this class compete against our single target attackers with the crash skill is kinda rough. For low funded or new players, this is definitely the to go class. (Paladin + 1x CR mule/Bishop mule) They are able to provide SO much for the party. Cheap washing, Strong supportive skillset & does decent damage even though it caps. a average stonetooth and 35wa gears & lvl81 CR mule probably allows it to work real fine in Zak/HT. —— For min maxing this class. Their damage output isn’t amazing for 1v1 sure, but guardian’s 15% block + stance when equipped with 1H flame sword & Shield. No SI and low repositioning requirement allow them to mule control so well & shine just like dark knights which have a really high damage output. Those really well built high weapon attack gear sets & CS-ed pilgrims probably would be able to do a stable 180k-200k. If we are looking in the extreme end game perspective, where we look at player value instead of class choice. multiclient attacking > gears Buffing this class dps output might make our dear dual attacking players which commonly uses paladin as secondary characters even more.. OP. Of course this doesn’t apply too much to the general community but still should be considered when the staff team is rebalancing. —— I really think this class received quite alot love in the past patches (shield buff & elemental weaknesses) in almost every mob. Hero reaally need some help though. LOL
Now, the question here should be, is it okay for people to be punished for picking the wrong weapon type? If we have multiple different weapons we can choose to use, is it really good gameplay designed to have 1 be better than the others? If we have multiple weapon choices, ideally, all of them should be equally as viable in the end, no?
no that is bad design. Having powerspikes for different weapon is desirable. Not everyone is looking at min-maxing dps. For example, if you went budget, I would suggest skull+ shield. Mid-budget (50b in gear) I would go for 2h sword and top end (300b+) I would go for 1h sword + shield. The only bad design here is that 2h BW is so bad nobody should even consider that. But there has to be a weapon worst than all the other and that is the one.
I think you guys are missing the point i'm trying to make. The issue with paladins isn't about the damage it can do, i get that it does great damage, i have a paladin myself taught by the mastaaaa @Haplopelma himself and as much as i think it does great damage, it's not a class i would consider continue playing after reaching 200, because of the issue of it's DPS potential in the endgame being limited thanks to dmg cap, which i think is enough to deter anyone with a sane mind to seriously commit to the class. It's an interesting concept and would allow more attentive and varied gameplay instead of spamming brandish on everything. +1 to this. Also, I'm actually leaning more towards CA being undispellable rather than CA as a passive skill, reason being people might want to hit stuff without charging orbs or stuff like that.
I find it hilarious that you mention that this class is great for low funded and new players and in the next line you mention that a paladin + a crash mule provides so much for a party. Why does a paladin need a crash mule to augment his abilities. Imagine saying a BM needed another BM to cast SE on him to make him useful, it is so absurd. As for the rest of your comment, I do not think dps is the problem with pally, we have a niche that we are comfortable in. We do insane high damage (useful for KB) on single, and our aoe hits 6 mobs which most people dont even know about. DPS is not the issue with this class. In fact, you could cut this class' dps by 30% if you removed crash mules and people would kill for a paladin on their team. The problem is entirely created by crash mules being more desirable than paladins. This is really hard to understand for most people who haven't played paladin but when you apply for parties, you will litterally get rejected so many times because most people don't feel like paladins are useful. And it makes sense, why bring a paladin when you can bring a nl + crash.
why not consider 1h sword and shield then? Why are you limiting yourself to 2h sword. Sure, you will still be limited in some regards when you apple and crit but in most cases, you will be doing almost exclusively 200k dmg if you omegafunded a 1h sword + shield pally. Anyways, I have spoken a lot about these issues on other threads and do not want to hijack this thread. Other classes desperately need buffs such as MM and Heroes
It's even worse when Drk's are the only class that always benefits from it. Some Hero's and Paladin's don't. Total Crash has been one of the most questionable ways to make Paladin's useful, but the people in charge clearly worked hard to code it in so I doubt that it would go away. I mean this is the most mulable skill in the game by being in the level 80s and not having to be partied so how can you make it more suited for party and solo play? And as long as Paladin's have such a useful skill it's hard to justify buffs.
I find making a lvl81 crash mule as a cheap investment for a low funded player in our current meta. Definitely more worth it then upgrading 3-4weapon attack. I don't think this is a good comparison. Why am i saying x2 crash in a single player is good. Now lets just say you have a static party with you and your buddies. All single attacking, no NL + BS nonsense Player 1 : Pally + CR Player 2 : NL + CR Player 3 : NL + SE Player 4 : BS + SED Don't you think the player 1 paladin with a lv81 crash mule brings a lot to the party? or does this party setup sounds absurd. i don't think so. Indeed! i'll kill for a paladin in my HT run if we're only allowed to single client. In fact fuck NLs LOL, we need 2 paladins. SHAD + NL + Pally + Pally + SE + BS Beautiful. C > WINGS > A > B Try recruiting instead of joining, this is a class that can open up so much opportunities for players joining. Honestly.. i still don't see how is this setup getting rejected. If anything i'd take a Paladin + CR over a BM + CR any day in a horntail party. Lets be real here, watching a average BM with its dps sink climbing the rope & repositioning most of the time is pretty ridiculous. To have a paladin + CR mule in my party, oh heck even a double paladin attacker. (30wa gear and 5bil budget of double flame sword & weapon atk shield)x2. Apple on one, stopper on the other. Compare that to a 200bil 9k NL + CR. you out dps the 9k NL any day no? So damn strong. To sum things up. Paladin itself is very strong and a lot of our player base are underestimating the differences that this class brings into a run, and yes. CR and no CR makes a difference in Horntail main body.
The whole price thing really just comes down to how effective they are though, no? If all the choices were equally viable, and were equally as far as how difficult they are to obtain, than there wouldn't be differing "budget builds" so to speak, they'd all be relatively the same price, which is what it optimally should be. Fundamentally, the issue here is how Nexon differentiated the different melee weapon types. Having one type have "less stable" damage than the other doesn't mean a whole lot in the end, as long as the overall dps is the same, it doesn't matter if one periodically hits harder or less than the other. If Nexon had added more meaningful things like unique side effects, or actual unique skills between weapon types, then it'd be different, but they didn't, so we're in this situation we have with swords being more effective than axes or bw. Since the damage cap can't be argued with, it's just an unbalanced, frustrating situation all around.
since the damage cap is currently immovable for the paladin. I'm gonna throw some different ideas instead if people really want a paladin buff. I'm also not recommending any of these ideas, I still think paladin is really balanced. 1. Make Fire/Ice/lighting/holy DoT (burn, freeze, static, exorcism) added if the monster is weak to that element. 2. Rework threaten to work with bosses, (-40% weapon def) if a paladin casts it while bossing, it should be balanced to not be "mule-able". this would be an additional party buff making everyone else hit harder in the boss run. 3. fix crash, it's game-breaking in the current state. 4. buff guardian even more. yea I said it. make paladin more tanky and appealing to 1h. I was 2h pally for dps, but hell, 1h pally is much cooler. pots are expensive af for warrior, guardian can save mesos. 5. make blast attack faster, someone said that already here. I cant remember who. 6. decrease HH cd to 10-15 seconds. there's a lot of ways to buff pally but the damage cap isn't one, unfortunately. again, I think pally is fine. up to the majority to agree on what should be done.
