Ah I am sorry if I misrepresented. I am not undermining the importance of SE when I said no one would pick it unless they have love for the class identity. I might have said it in my head but forgot to actually type it out lol. I believe every class has its significance (except f/p and I/L ngl) As a result, every party would look for a specific class depending on the type of boss they are fighting. Example, cr for nibergen or zak or SE for Shao etc. But it seems that since every class has its specific role, it might not be fair to over-hype archers' SE and hamstring etc. Its insane, yes but so is paladin's crash or shadower's smokescreen all of which adds to the comfort of the bossing expedition. What I truly meant was that no one would pick BM unless they wanted to play as a support. Of course there are other reasons like insecurity or just wanting to be accepted into parties etc.. but other classes have that too so I would respectfully put that point aside for the purposes of this discussion. I used to boss daily for hours and hours everyday but I have not done so for the past 3months or so which is why I may be out of practice. Which is why I consider myself a casual player now since all I do is sit in fm or do some nostalgic merching or mess around with my friends or giving stuff to new players. I am sorry if my generalization came across the wrong way but thats definitely not what I meant. I amended the comment.
I happen to know a friend who has his own private v083 server for data testing, so I have the chance to test various classes' dps and range with a number of gear sets. Anyway just add some of my test data: A lv200 BM with 140wa nisrock and 35 wa gear set can reach about 8600~9000 range, depends on your untradables and other stuffs. A 9000 range bm performs the same dps as a 6200 range NL, which is 82% of overall performance of a NL. It is tested with a straw dummy target with 20m hp. The percentage will fall if the target is casting knock back on bm since bm have less avoid than NL. How to evaluate BM's range in terms of NL: (BM's range - 1500) * 0.82 = range of a NL (its not precisly accurate, but you can get a close idea of how the bm is performing compared to a NL)
Thank you. Hope this stops people from saying BMs are stronger than NLs on dps comparison alone from now on
The problem with bowmasters is not with their theoretical damage, but their actual damage output in real bossing. I'd say looking at DPS against straw dummies makes it seem like BMs are not in bad position. The real problem with archers is that you don't even get close to that theoretical dps in most scenarios. Every time you get hit by an attack as BM, not only is your hurricane interrupted, but you are also forced to reposition. Getting knocked off the platform in Horntail is obviously your fault, but inevitable repositioning/interruption of hurricane eats away significant portion of dps In the end, unless you are fighting krex, you have a class that in practice probably does about 60% or less of what NLs do in boss fights. Please buff the crit chance of archers by 10%. Or add a way to close the gap between theoretical and real performance.
In a nutshell, Archers are ranged dpsers (not so much of a buffer nowadays).. Its hard to get uptime while dpsing when getting knocked back every second and (also) inferior damage. However I believe this ranged dps class can also be outshined by melee classes (total damage output wise) stance/iframes/cleave/cheap hp.... you get the point sooo why play an archer (from a balance perspective) also it is evident that there are very few committed archer mains out there compared to previous years I wonder why. (I never said warriors outdps archers single-target Im just saying they come VERY close cmon peeps) Which is ridiculous cause they can cleave, dont whack, have stance and cheap hp
1) For the record, I never once said that BMs are stronger than NLs or can white NL with equal funding - feel free to quote me if I have ever said this in the past. 2) In my initial reply to @robertbusat, I was bringing up counterpoints as to what BMs, in an example from Auf expedition, do excel in now and how I felt some BM strengths were being understated and overlooked. 3) My comment about taking a "strong BM that can utilize their kit, than a meta-following inexperienced NL anyday" was not drawing a direct comparison to NL/BM DPS, but a direct response to how @robertbusat stated "sharp eyes is everywhere theres more archer mules than actual players". I'm not sure how you decided to make this statement into another debate about NL vs BM DPS (or me saying that BM is stronger than NL, but I think anyone else who read that post could clearly see you misquoted and misinterpreted my point, completely. I agree with you, NLs are obviously very strong - and yes, they do outdps BMs with similar gear/funding. I also agree that BMs are in a pretty decent spot, especially as support attackers. I also believe that although they may do 82% damage in ideal conditions vs a NL, like you've said, it's not an equal comparison as there are many variables such as, if a BM dc's or dies with no more ress and NLs lose SE, they literally lose 50% of their damage, while BMs remain self-sufficient regardless if any other party member dc's. More could be said about this, but this is the counterpoint and major drawback of the NL meta. As you've stated, you don't have an NL, so you haven't been in a run where a BM dc'd 20 min into a HT run and the whole party has to decide whether or not they want to stay in cave to finish HT with double the time. You haven't been in an Auf run where the BM gets yeeted into Core Blaze by mavericks and dies in the middle of the body, so you can't even ress the BM or else they'll just die again instantly and the run is essentially scuffed. Can BMs be tweaked/buffed more to be a more attractive class to "main"? Sure, I also have and love my BM that I brought to 200 before I made an NL. But don't misquote me and use a misinterpretation and misrepresentation of my words to fuel whatever point you're trying to prove.
Sorry for potentially going off topic a bit. Just here to give some input that might help everyone sort out and frame their debates better. Borrowing game terminology from other games, when discussing a class DPS value, I think it's best to be clearly aware of the the difference between "personal DPS (pDPS)" and "raid DPS (rDPS)". However, to my knowledge we can't directly extract damage/combat logs from MSRoyals client so this will be about adopting the terminology concept for discussion, rather than dissecting the actual numbers in detail. Definitions pDPS: Total DPS output when including all kinds of buffs received rDPS: Total DPS - (damage gained from other party member's buff) + (damage given to others from your party buffs) Mock example to give an idea what it practically means Player A receive 30% buff from B and C Player B receive 10% from C, gives 20% to A and C each Player C receive 20% from B, gives 10% to A and B each As we can see here in this particular example, The "selfish" DPS contributes the most in terms of raw DPS output after being buffed, while the "support" DPS pales in personal DPS. Looking at party contribution , every player is pretty much balanced out. In the end, "selfish" DPS depends on "support" to be a chad chuck norris, while "support" depends on "selfish" to be valuable. Takeaway When discussing about DPS contributions, best to be clear in which context of DPS is being the subject of discussion. Game devs that take game balancing seriously usually include these 2 parameters (and among other mess of factors) when deciding to pass on a buff or nerf hammer. So, when campaigning for a character buff / nerf, properly gauge and present these 2 concepts will put more weight in your respective debating points.
I was not referring to you when I said that. I saw a lot of comments on my previous thread regarding Soul Arrow update that Archers are op af now and dont even deserve the 6 att buff. So if they get the 6 att buff, it is understandable that Soul Arrow has to be nerfed in its QOL aspect to balance it out. I only replied to your comment because you said some stuff regarding BM's utility skills as though they are insane and as a result over-hyped them a little. I did not misinterpret or misquote anything. If anything it was the guy nany who misunderstood what I meant and accused me of not reading the whole text. I understand very well what you were trying to say and I replied based on what I felt. If you think I was referring to you when I said some people think BMs are more op than NL than you misunderstood me because I was not referring to you. In essence, My point is that BMs, in my opinion at least, are a support utility class and has a decent dps output atm. Sure I am a casual so I might not be the best person to give my opinion on dps so I try my best not to comment on BM's dps. If other people feel like it requires a buff, so be it. But I dont want BM to have its QOL affected for a buff. And I also dont want people to say BMs are stronger than NL with the current 6 att buff because its clearly not. Worse still, come up with some nonsense like Soul Arrow would be too op for a 2nd job skill to have arrow's bonus attack and not consume arrows. I digress so I hope this clears up any misconception of my opinion and we can go back to the thread's discussion.
Great concept that you brought up! But I think in RMS, where mule exists, things can go different. For example, a quad HT run with 3 NL + 1 bs mule, the last slot would be for bm right? But in the real situation, people can still bring a NL + Se mule to maximise the DPS, due to the low pDPS from BM. And that is actually happening because most people in this game are aftering pDPS rather than rDPS.
@Kethoe You actually hit the spot. Those areas go overlooked quite often self sufficiency and intriguing support kit (hamstring,puppet,phoenix/hawk,aoe clears,SE) (BM) Those are their strong and unique points. However maybe the cons outweigh the pros I feel Moving on For a ranged single target squishy class their total dmg output feels so lackluster even when compared to melee classes (on real bossing situations not a KEKxel punchin bag) As it stands archers (in terms of dps) cant even compare themselves with nl/sair I feel as though they should receive a small adjustment so that theyre not dealing (a lot?) less total dmg to a boss than melee classes Key phrase: under real bossing circumstances Standing still and pew pewing theyre great but on many bosses their DPS Uptime is very bad Even a corsair using rapid fire only can match an archers dps From a balance perspective if a player would like to fund a ranged attacker why would they choose an archer? (take in mule story into consideration too we all know its a thing nowadays) The numbers on real situations feel very unappealing, maybe too unappealing which is why people who love archers feel discouraged to even keep funding/maining them (just my personal experience)
