In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

wait wha? i didn't know dragon blood couldn't stack with rage okay this is much worse now, more incentive to not recruit a drk since everyone right now will want to run with a hero in their squad!

idk man, 38 att is alot.. they are very likely stronger than bucc and should be close or on par with shads now.
just to illustrate the scale of how big a 38 att boost is, 38 att is the att difference between a level 110 perf dragon claymore, and a level 50 perf lion's fang. Well enrage doesn't have 100% uptime but still, they would be up 2/3 of the time. so any heroes that would be using a perf level 50 weapon now is doing the same damage as they did on a perf claymore prepatch (for 66% of the time)

we are COOKED!

 

it's simple to understand , nobody cares about the DPS loss. it's about the change of gameplay

 

It is A LOT, probably close to Nls when it comes to raw potless grind situations, buts lets be honest who cares about the mobbing meta in this game, also you could boss on gizers, where a hero could probably match a Shad now, but Im talking from the fully buffed, on apple or higher att pot, and at least a "very decent" equipment POV, as you know the higher the att stats you have, the less impactfull is every new att point in terms of dmg%, I mean i have seen nls on gizer easily withe Heros and even Drks on apples with similar gears, I still have to run some test to see if im right, but im 100% shure that even if Hero outdmg a Shad, it wont be by a big margin, and thats each individually, cause remeber if they both are in the same pt, they both will have have rage, so the difference will only be 26wa and not even 100% of the time. An example: wich pt you think deall most dmg? 1 Hero- 3 shads-1 bucc-1 bish(they all will have rage rmber) or 4 heros-1 bucc-1 bish?, Again maybe Im wrong but with a quick evaluation I would say that considering all factors involved, Heros are just completing screwing Drks, will not take shad place in the current meta.

 

1. good for you and only YOU. my problem with the skill change is not with Zerk as it is/was but the content that demands more from DK than any other class for no real benefit to the player and the party, but you do seem to understand that so there.
2. no they didn't nerf Zerk, they just made DK even more irrelevant for raids now that they have to trade damage for survivability. this isn't a buff or a fix, they might as well not have changed anything.

to any DK reading wondering if they can anego now, just go to LHC, it's better, easier and you're actually wanted there.

 

so what dragon blood?
Hero is running around with a 38 att boner with no HP drain for beholder to heal, what about Dragon Blood?

 

The nerf for buccs really ruined them in my eyes.

60 seconds of not being able to use your main attack skill demoliton and also no snatch means huge DPS loss.

I understand a small nerf but this is wayy to insane and it almost feels like you want to make it a SI myule for the newly buffed heroes / DRK / sairs.

 

oh boy I still have to try bucc
using slow ass dragon strike on Ephenia's fairies while waiting for trans to end CD? that's gonna be nofun.

 

Personally, I welcome the fact that this update has reverted the Bucc to its old state.
I never liked the version of the Bucc that was constantly in a transformation.
Anyone who played and loved the pre-BB Bucc would surely agree with this (and I believe this server should cater to those players).

However, many people who started playing the class after it was buffed will likely be dissatisfied.
They put in the effort for a powerful, convenient Bucc, so this update probably makes them feel like they’ve been cheated.(If the transformation hadn't been made available for constant use in an update several years ago, this problem wouldn't have occurred.)
I can certainly understand that sentiment.
There is also a risk that this could lead to a drop in the player population.

Therefore, I think some balance adjustments are needed to compensate for the loss of DPS or convenience—such as slightly increasing damage or raising the Stance activation rate.
Though, if the damage in transformation is boosted too much, we might see an increase in Bucc(TL) PT that chain-use the transformation.

Finally, I hope the class doesn't revert to a state where it is used solely for multi-clienting—relying on constant transformation and simple controls.

Thank you for reading.
(I am typing these sentences using a translation tool)

 

Spoiler: Smoke

As a shad main I am not at all upset by any of the smoke changes.

It is a nerf to smoke meta, but not actually any meaningful nerf to shads. Smoke meta is silly anyway, moving away from afk gameplay is a good thing.

Smoke uptime is no longer continuous but still good unless you were abusing the smoke-tl meta. Though actually worse in practice (delays when rotating body parts/vl tps), there’s theoretically no difference to smoke uptime if you weren’t doing more than 4 smokes/10min before. Which is a LOT of smoke so it’s silly to complain it’s not enough.

Yes weaker parties can’t rush tail in 2 smokes anymore. But just… hit something else for a minute?? Many parties spend an extra minute killing leg after tail anyway (though some ignore leg entirely and move to 4p). The order of hitting stuff changes but I don’t see it being any real problem.

Ht 4P is definitely more annoying/less afk/less dps with less smoke, but shad is still the best 4-parter and it is still going to be very fast. And shads also have good single target damage. None of that has changed, shad is not falling out of the top ranks anytime soon. It is a QOL nerf but only a small damage nerf from more repositioning. Which matters slightly less if you were actually playing your shadower instead of holding a button in smoke for 6mins while watching youtube (tuna…). Now you actually have to play your character, which is a perfectly good thing.

Is it going to affect arm rush? For sure, but you could do s1, hw (heal on bs if needed) in the 1min downtime, then s2 (which might even cover the next 2 seds if you time it well + no delays). If arm still isn’t dead, then tl the hw for the next sed, followed by s3. But I don’t have a cr or bs with hw!! Well, get one then… If you want a faster ht, then you should have to go to some extra lengths or take some risks. Or you could just be safe and not rush arm. Shad is still gonna be amazing dps, even in a normal ht.

Auf will likely be more annoying without full smoke, but just as people have been doing since before smoke spam was the norm, just hw every second sed, or if on cd, move to a safer spot if you can’t spare a res. Most shads are not going to die even without smoke anyway, so this mostly only affects the other classes (mostly buccs) that people are likely duo attacking on.

For vl, just learn to play your shad without relying on smoke…

Spoiler: Dark sight QOL changes

I’ve been praying for years for an easy way to exit dark sight without having to right click the buff, so I was glad to see some changes made to it. It did not fix all the problems, though.

What works now: You can now heroes will in dark sight!! So you can finally use hw for laser in vl while in ds, and you don’t have to waste time right clicking sed in ht to hw. Interestingly, casting hw in ds does not cancel ds, but that isn’t an issue anyway.

What still doesn’t work: Exiting dark sight while stunned – you still have to right click the buff icon to remove it, as pressing ds/attack/etc don’t work in ds.

This is an issue as if you’re stunned + 1/1 (like in vl) you can die easily if you get hit again while stuck in ds before you can move your mouse. If you have hw10 you can hw to remove the stun and then exit ds with a key, but hw is often better kept for sed instead. It would help if the changes to leaving ds also applied when the character is stunned.

What (luckily) still works: ds-bstep-assa macro (only for the laggers) still works. Bstep doesn’t interrupt your ds-assa. Idk if staff considered this specifically when balancing, but I’m thankful.

Spoiler: Arrow bomb changes

No one asked for this.

Spoiler: Archer changes that I'm disappointed not to see

Ability to push a boss, either with dragon breath or power knockback. But just one of those skills, not both, so that archers can still separate mobs from boss (mostly for shao clones). Personal preference is db as the boss-pushing skill but either works.

Spoiler: Random thing about bucc transform

Btw if you die when transform is up and get res-ed, and the buff is still up but you can't use demo/snatch/etc, just attempt to mount and it will toss you back on transform again

 

funny thing is, any buff to dark knight would still make them unwanted in content.
party stance? good for everyone. stackable rage?only good for hero.

just roll back the update. you ruined anniversary and the game.

 

No lies the buffs to the warriors were good, non game breaking buffs. (I see my 60% zerk suggestion was approved *cough* and some of my hero ones ) but it doesn’t solve the issues warriors have. As long as CR EXISTS heroes and drks regardless of their extra utility will NOT get invited. Like I said before and I’ll say it again…give ALL warriors CR to let them get ALL invited to bosses. A boss putting up a wall of invincibility every 20-30 seconds people just rather bring the CR mule…it’s not rocket science.
Also, revert PG so that warriors can actually play sed at HT not just thieves preferably .

 

no.
the best example of the brainless approach to handling DK is not berserk but beholder.
they got rid of the attack buff that didn't even stack with pots... who the hell needs 40 accuracy when amoria baskets exist? what DK needs 40 accuracy at all?
why couldn't the beholder buff stack with pots, blood and rage? why was that not acceptable? why did this update went out of this way to screw Dark Knights???

 

I need 40 accuracy to hit vl req. It's nice to not have to buy baskets. It's not as nice as a free +38 att tho

 

basket>beholder
you can use those lovely 25 skill points to level up Dragon Blood and Beholder Aura
lovely

 

Same logic, you can just use gizers for more wa. I have blood maxed and healing at level 10. One less potion to worry about is nice. Especially since you can't buy them from an NPC and they stack to 10

 

The taunt buff to two of the most popular classes by a wide margin was such a bottom of the barrel request, so buffing it feels excessive. I'd feel miffed if I mained any class outside thieves. Unless there are some technical thief nerfs ahead, this issue + buff wasn't remotely necessary. However, if youre inclined to try to point taunt early on, which is a very rare build to be sure, and I say from experience, taunt at 200 will only ever be about drops, and be much more exploitable for parties, which bkth classes dont really need. the technical aspect of not killing in favor of better loot was the exchange... as a staunch shad supporter, who also advocates for some shad nerfs, im still not able to defend this buff bc again, both thief classes are extremely popular and mobile and deadly. We'll see how it shakes out tho, but that's just my humble opinion

The warrior att buffs are disappointing and uninspired, all three classes have so much potential outside of pure att or area of att range. Yes theyre popular requests, but there is no substance, everyone wants more att, more att is not an engaging dynamic or party dynamic, bc it just amounts to level rather than skill, and both will eventually cap. Skill, and timing however, are the real sauce and memorable run makers in the long run, not gear or damage (and these buffs disproportionately buff the better geared)

The sair buffs overall are good. Hypno on ship is big, and warranted, as its an out of the way skill, but hypnos bigger issue is that it shouldn't target bullseyed mobs, that's still a better buff. Please, please consider buffing wings to be cast any time, not just from the ground, that will make HT a lot more interesting, and give wings much more utility than screwing around while afk

 

Why does the in-game text for buccaneer on super transformation say time between skills 3 minutes (180 seconds) despite the patch notes saying it's 4 min (240 seconds)?

 

在之前Drk增強之後英雄就是一個垃圾職業
200%＞210%增益雖然看起來只有10%
但是在後期和使用高攻擊藥水的的環境下 這個10%和英雄的差距就會越來越大
甚至有se情況下可以超越paly單體傷害
（Zerk可以額外增強se效果，ACA沒有）

人們都說DRK因為Zerk操作困難的關係，相比之下英雄只要Brandish 就可以很簡單的打出很高的傷害，所以英雄相比Drk可以很簡單的做auf和Vl，但現實在好幾年的Bossing中我做了1500場以上的AUF+VL團， 從來沒有看過一次（或許有）有人帶上HERO或是Drk （VL團有看過幾次DK)

在戰士職業比較容易就業的HT和Cwkpq中 drk只要使用寵物補血就能很輕鬆的使用Zerk。這其實有點違背高風險高回報的理念，我甚至在使用DK進行HT (no Achilles)可以很輕鬆的duo or trio 攻擊，同時操作我的bs mule，老實說很多環境下zerk根本沒有難度，玩起來就和英雄一樣，但我很輕鬆的得到比英雄好的效果

在某些情況下，HB還有用處，我的NL也只有19KHP，未來的PB可能需要HB才能活下去
但是Rage 和Enrage就完全意義不明
如果Hero作為一個純DPS clsss 這樣的表現有點太過於垃圾了，傷害敬陪末座……

我覺得英雄的增強可以保留
DK的ZERK 可以增加一個HP越少傷害越高的BUFF，符合高風險高回報的操作給與真正那些想挑戰自己的人
高於60% 160%
50% 210%
低於40% 230%
低於30% 240%

 

About skill changes phase 1:

Shadower: the map-wide CD of smokescreen is great. Before the skill change, people with multiple shads and buccs can easily clear bosses with perma-SS (imagine 25 min Toad cider run with 0 PE consumption). Now at Auf people are forced to actually play below 25% just like any non-shad run.

Buccaneer: the 60 sec CD on super transformation is terrible. I understand that the staff want to revert the shad/bucc-story. Buccs were strong because consecutive SS’s are strong. Now that buccs no longer benefit from spamming SS, Shad/bucc-story is not a thing anymore.
Some facts:
1. with the same amount of funding, shadowers do more damage than buccaneers. If buccs are nerfed in damage, so should shadowers.
2. for solo contents, the map CD of SS doesn't affect shadowers; the 60 sec CD of ST makes buccs hard to farm and hard to charge.
3. melee classes have some sort of stance (warrior: stance; shadower: high avoidability and Shadow Shifter). But buccs charge very slowly without ST, and it would be torturous to boss and grind.
4. Without ST, Buccs can not hit the ship (Dunas unit) before Dunas v2 with any 4th job skill (except dragon strike which has a long delay and the damage is low).

Hero:
1. rage being stackable is great. The damage heroes do is still low compared to many classes (shad, bucc, NL, maybe BM/MM). Will people bring rage mule? Probably. What's the difference between a CR (for HT, scarga, krex) and a hero? 12 att isn't much. Assume 40 CGS, 12 non-CGS, and perfect weapon - 10 att.
NL: 40+12+91+30-10 = 163, with gizer (25), rage buffs 6.4%; with apple (100), rage buffs 4.6%.
Shadower: 40+12+140+31-10 = 213. 4.8% and 3.7%.
Bucc: 40+12+119-10 = 161. 6.5% and 4.6%.
For better gears, rage buff % gets lower.
This is not OP compared to SI, and SE.
For HT, scarga, and krex, CR is much more powerful than rage.

2. Enrage being stackable is great. 26 att for 4 min with 6 min CD. That's about 17.3 att on average.
1) it does not make heroes OP with high ATT gears and potions. When people do DPS check for 12-man VL, usually heroes are required to have 12k range with 2h-sword, and 13k with 1h-sword. For comparison, paladins are required to have 11k range with 2h-sword, 1k lower than heroes. The 1k difference is about 20 att.
2) heroes need to be high level to benefit from enrage. Brandish (30), ACA (30), rush (20), stance (30), achilles (30), MW (10), monster magnet (for LHC 20 or 30). A hero would probably only consider enrage after 170.

Will people be more willing to bring a hero to boss runs? Probably. It's just saving a shit class from hell. I'd suggest DK players figure out ways to make DK more wanted instead of dragging heroes back to the shit pit.

 

could maybe change bubble to become toggle so that it becomes an alternative when ST is on cd.. at least can use energy orb to instead of snatch and stance to replace iframes.. also finally making full use of every 4th job skill