In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

I agree, kill mage farm.

It actually has been nerfed 3 times:
- Increasing NLC potion costs
- Making mage ultimates (gen/blizzard/meteor) unable to be put in a macro
- Making enemies killed (>80% damage done) by mage ultimates have a 50% drop rate penalty on event items (and LHC totems)

Imo this wasn't nearly enough and it should be significantly damaged to the point where bossing, especially VL, becomes the best source of income.

 

Ngl, while I think buccs were overpowered i find it funny that people claim that transform cancels were the overpowered part. If it is, why are there literally like 5 people who even do it?
People flock to what is op and it becomes meta, yet no one actually does this.
They just say it is op.
It's just one of the few parts in this game that has skill expression and for me the reason i made a bucc. Too bad it wasn't intended.

 

Just stagger your transform across buccs in the run and you're fine.
If this is what we are doing with bucc please fix the cool down timer in the top right. When other buffs are cast, transform timer can visually reset then just go to flashing in an instant. It's super jank and not reliable when you need to be aware of transform expiring like when a rock falls on you.
Taking two buccs to LHC was already terrible cause their mobbing dps is mid. Taking two buccs after the nerf is actively grieving your run. Fuck the dks, buccs, and pallys, just run 6 flame sword heroes for new meta

 

So it is for real that players would be encouraged to make sure every player from different jobs that can join the pt on single client in late content rather than multi atks on solo contents if those players have played royals long years? If so,it will definitely shorten the whole game during of players and all players have to play the way designed by GMs rather than to explore new methods of playing.
As least for players who either on early period or late period should have thier right to play on the way they are like to or they are deserved to.

 

I like that now there is uptime and downtime of bucc's TF, but only 25% downtime (1min) of TF looks awkward to me.

During TF downtime, which is the duration that costumes and facial expressions are shown, I think many people would like to show their costumes and facial identities, but on just only 25% duration it looks like an unwanted gap rather than one of main parts. And in HT when TF is off, bucc would need to change to hit sth else with BR + DS to reach target, which is maybe awkward cuz TF downtime is only 1min (25%).

So, I even want the TF downtime to be like 2mins ( 3mins TF and 5mins TF cooldown ), and adjust (increase) bucc's dps on many skills to compensate.

For mage farm, if we kill mage farm, we might need to kill multiclient bossing too then ? I think just nerfing is fine.

 

Post-update Bucc content feedback:

Before update, I usually ran Auf with 3 attackers + 2 mules.

Day 1: Bucc + Pally+ NL — around 1h 50m, mostly due to adjusting to the new Bucc changes.
Day 2: Bucc + Pally + NL — around 1h 40m.
Day 3: Swapped Bucc out for SE + Pally + NL — under 1h 30m.
Day 4: Tried Bucc again and only using Barrage + Dragon Strike for the entire run and only ST for mobbing. Still around 1h 40m.

My main issue is not just DPS loss, but the loss of consistent Snatch access when it matters. Royal Guard felt mostly the same since it is mainly DPS after separating mobs, but from Core Blaze onward, mob control became noticeably worse.

Tried timing ST for mob spawns, but it did not last long enough for all 3 waves, so I had to rely more on Pally n Bsp to clear. For Auf itself, when the boss gets displaced by seduce or stun when ST is on CD, Bucc has to swim back and slowly Barrage to pin again, which makes repositioning much slower. Without Demo, I also noticed Bucc taking more DP and needing to rebuff more often.

When I swapped Bucc with SE, Core Blaze is a lot easier due to Arrow Bomb and Hawk stuns. Auf was also much smoother because Hamstring reduced boss displacement, making it easier for Pally and NL to help pin. Overall, the SE setup was both faster and smoother for me. I understand this is not a direct DPS comparison, but that is also my point — in actual runs, utility and control affect clear time heavily.

Conclusion:
Based on my own small sample size, this does not feel like just a learning curve. Even after adjusting my rotation, Bucc still felt clunkier and slower than simply replacing it with SE in this setup. The 97–98% number may be accurate in simple bosses, but it does not reflect content where Bucc’s value depends on Snatch and Demo access.

Spoiler: DISCLAIMER

This is only based on my own experience, setup, and possible skill issues. It may not represent every Bucc player or Auf setup. If anyone has advice, wants to discuss, or wants details on my gear, pots, or run setup, feel free to reach out to me in-game.

Spoiler: Other contents testing

Also tested multi-atking with Bucc Krex and NT bosses. Dunas both v1 and v2 are disastrous. Others were noticeably slower, but only by a few mins each.

For these types of content, Tim’s 97–98% damage retention estimate is probably accurate, at least based on my own runs.

As for RG, there's no arguing that Bucc officially joins BM tier (still better than NLs though, kekw)

I would also love to hear more experiences from others, especially for HT or VL runs where the impact is more noticeable.

Edit: would also like to hear LHC experience

 

make snatch a non transform skill and its all good

 

I appreciate the transparency, and also your passion and effort lately.
It's good to see the one who is directly responsible for the balance changes participating in this thread and collecting feedback.
It's also good to see that you are already working on the SP issue Buccs face at the moment.

As I said, the transformation change itself is the right direction in my opinion.
Royals version of Bucc was on steroids, it had no right to be able to do well in every single bossing situation on top of having the best utility.
I do like changes that encourage active play even if it means it will take some extra effort to multiclient.

That said, I think you were only focusing on the single target aspect when you implemented this change.
It's important to make sure that even when the damage is nerfed and extra difficulty is added, the gameplay stays fluid enough to be enjoyable and that you still have skills to combo in every situation.

More specifically, mobbing off Transform feels terrible.
Looking at the available combos and how they compare in damage, the only viable one would be to spam Dragon Strike.
Energy Orb's bounce mechanics is bad and will not hit enough mobs, and Energy Blast doesn't have enough reach to hit enough mobs or multiple platforms.
While Dragon Strike is strong, that means you have to stand in place and spam one skill, which feels extremely wrong for a Bucc. Give it a shot and see for yourself.
Look at what Bucc can do in the different multi target situations now:
LHC Golems - spam DS on the middle platforms.
Mobs will be pushed out range for the other attackers without Snatch, which means you would either have to sacrifice another attacker for a Bucc to alternate Snatch or just go in a party without SI.
VL mobs - Holding DS only feels extremely bad here. It's easier to space out the transform CDs here to always have snatch, and Buccs still do fine here, but it feels extremely clunky and unsatisfying.
HT 4 part - spam DS when inside smoke/when bubble is up, otherwise hold Barr+DS.
On a side note, you should probably also extend the arms hitbox so Barrage can hit them. This will become a bigger problem now when Shad HT will drop in popularity and people won't kill arms first.

There are plenty of solutions to these problems, the easiest ones being:
1) Let Snatch be used outside transform.
2) Fix Energy Orb to actually make it viable outside transform, perhaps remove the energy charge requirement too.

Personally, I'd like those changes combined with increased cooldown on TL, which is a change that I honestly thought will happen this patch.
40 mins CD should be good.

There are 2 other things that are important for me to mention about this:
1) This nerf must come with Shad nerf too, it goes hand in hand and it will make a lot more sense that way.
2) I don't think this made Bucc weak at all.
Despite the flaws, it's still one of the strongest chars in this new meta and a must for most bosses.
As a Bucc main, I'm definitely not despairing at the moment.
The issues I mentioned must be solved though, because damage % changes really don't paint the entire picture here, it's important for the class to remain enjoyable.

Edit: and please focus your efforts on giving us test dummy now, it will make your job a lot easier.

 

In many other RPGs, it is common to see character designs that rely on powerful skills with long cooldowns, interspersed with weaker skills that have short cooldowns. The "pre-Big Bang" Bucc design reflects this very approach.
(While ST is active, unleash powerful combos using Demolition or Snatch, and then switch to relatively weaker combos once ST wears off.)

While not quite to the same extent as in the past, the Bucc now faces a 60-second downtime for ST.
The problems resulting from this appear to be as follows:

1. Severe Powerlessness: Players feel significantly powerless during the 60-second ST downtime.

2. Player Dissatisfaction: Existing Bucc players are frustrated that a system core to the identity of the class for years was altered in a single patch.

3. Community Divide: A rift has emerged between players who support 100% ST uptime and those who argue it was OP.

I understand the perspective of pre-Big Bang Bucc advocates, the grievances of current players, and the direction the GMs are trying to take. Balancing the class to satisfy both the GMs' vision and the player base is certainly a difficult task.

To address this issue, I suggest taking the Bucc's 'Energy' skills into consideration for balancing adjustments. Currently, the skill design feels flawed. Although the Stance rate was buffed to 90%, there are still shortcomings.

Here are the improvements I would like to propose:

1. Convert "Energy Charge" into an Active Skill: Give it a 120-second cooldown. It will charge 2.5% Energy per skill level, with the Bubble duration set to 60 seconds.

2. Rework "Energy Blast" : Change it into a single-target skill and adjust its damage multiplier so it can be integrated into a "Barrage + Blast" combo while ST is on cooldown.

3. Adjust "Energy Orb": Tweak its damage multiplier so it can be effectively used in a "DS + Orb" combo during ST downtime.

4. Balance Multipliers: Keep the damage multipliers for these skills lower than those of "Demolition" and "Snatch" used during ST.

In summary, this proposal aims to preserve the Bucc's core identity—characterized by alternating phases of burst and filler damage—by effectively utilizing both ST and Bubble states. By integrating Energy skills into combos, this adjustment will fill the 60-second downtime with the class's unique mechanics, ultimately enhancing both gameplay fluidness and fun.

It is a great relief that the GM team has acknowledged the issue regarding the Bucc's skill point shortage (since Orb is also a 4th-job skill costing 30 SP). I sincerely hope to see positive changes in Phase 2.

 

Not to derail the Bucc discussion but are there any plans to Improve 2-handed Blunt weapons like was done with Axes?
I think a simple Speed increase for most of them would be enough to bring them into some relevancy.

 

Regarding the "Phase 2" notes, some more comments about the archer stuff in particular:

1. Personally, I don't really care about Soul Arrow at all. It would be one of the least impactful changes for us, and I hope it doesn't detract any time/effort from working on the other stuff we so desperately need. It's honestly fine as-is. Maybe just change the description to say it doesn't use your arrow's W.Att

2. As already mentioned, Stance on Puppet/Focus is a great idea. QoL has always been really poor for this class, so I hope this is prioritized

3. The other really important thing (which I didn't see mentioned) is pushing boss mobs. Especially now that Buccs have unreliable access to Snatch. MM in particular has always suffered during golems/double in VL whenever mobs are not properly grouped because our Piercing Arrow requires precise positioning. If you pull aggro and some mobs run at you, you're basically helpless and a liability. This rarely happened before because Buccs were always Snatching them back into place, but now...?

Trying to have Buccs alternate ST also doesn't solve it, the one with ST up can still be jailed. Warriors can't help either because it takes them like 3 attempts to Rush/Magnet anything. All it takes is one big eat to kill an entire run, so it's kinda a big deal. I'm doing my best to promote MM as a strong VL class, but this is something really holding me back, and it's about to get worse. Being able to push mobs ourselves can help fix this (and/or allowing us to puppet without DCing, that can be used to lure as well). So please consider it

 

Although I've repeated this in another thread (https://royals.ms/forum/threads/bucc-nerf-protest.259163/page-7#post-1630790), I'll briefly repeat this here as well:

• I support Bucc being a job built around multi-stage transformation with skill set switching — but right now the fluidity and situational adaptability have been nerfed far too heavily.

Specific problems:

• Demo's ranged and iFrame properties are now only available in ST state, severely limiting post-transformation fluidity — this shows up in both "difficulty entering Charge" and "inability to use iFrame to dodge attacks."
• Snatch is a critical ranged / mob-gathering / high-damage AoE skill, also now only available in ST state, removing both of these capabilities from non-ST Bucc.
• Charge provides 90% Stance but has a short duration, compounded by the problem of "no Demo/Snatch makes it hard to fill the energy gauge" — so everything feels even worse once Demo is unavailable.
• The usual compensation for increased mechanical difficulty is higher DPS — but this patch chose to nerf instead.

My suggestions:

• Directly extend the Charge duration — possibly 2x–3x.
• (To compensate for the loss of Demo) Fix hitboxes so that in non-ST state there are at least 2 skills that can deal damage (at minimum able to hit HT's arms) — I would choose Barrage and Blast, with Blast's mob count reduced to 2–3. Another reason to choose Blast is that even without Barrage the damage won't be too low, and it doesn't consume 4th-job SP. I would also fix Double Uppercut's hitbox and its awkward delay, as a lower-tier substitute for when Blast can't be used outside Charge state.
• (To address the loss of the key mob-gathering skill) Make Snatch/Shockwave non-ST state skills and make Dragon an ST state skill, further reinforcing the DPS distinction between ST and non-ST states. Buff Demo and Dragon. Shockwave serves as the lower-tier no-4th-SP substitute for Dragon — though for fluidity, testing may be needed on whether to speed up the Shockwave animation while reducing single-hit damage.

(Aggressive suggestion):
Further increase the damage of ST-state skills and extend the ST cooldown (to 360s).

The goal of these changes is to preserve the multi-stage switching identity while addressing the following problems:

• Strengthening Demo's substitute skills
• The problem of Snatch's effect having no substitute
• Using Shockwave/Blast as a solution for insufficient SP
• Charge effect duration being too short
• The long-standing issue of Bucc being unable to show the outfit

 

The game lacks burst damage class who can deal heavy dmg in short amounts of time but lacking in the other times (AKA shadowers before royals buffed them, where they meso exploded for burst dmg). Make Hero a burst dmg class (state of rage, but it also fits the name of berserk), whereas DrK the consistent DPSer. Burst damager would work in cases like HT tail rush, lack of dmg on VL summons,

With Enrage:
*Changing enrage to a stackable 100 att 1min up 6min down (max 400k per brandish)
*Make enrage change how coma/panic works while buff is up - EG coma and panic both casted like final attack without consuming orbs, but without interrupting brandish (unsure if doable), or just doesn't consume orb and be spammable.
*Create a new tier of attack speed (1) only when enrage is active and make it 50-80% faster than speed 2 with brandish (gotta change attack speed ban detection)
Just some examples of what else can be changed aside from pure attack boost.

Long term DPM DrK should come ahead by ~10%, but in short burst, hero can be top DPS to even corsairs or NL. Do need to change it so enrage cannot be time leaped.

Also for all warrior class, remove charging for monster magnet cuz wth is even that.

For Bucc, I stand with snatch usable in 3rd job transformation or if bucc stays the way they are (basically the old ways before royal buff), then it's time to let other classes take the role of things like rushing while ST is down.

 

small QoL request for BM/MM update

with the arrow +att changes Diamond arrows are better than Red arrows now. The vendor that sells diamond arrows only allows you to buy a single stack at a time, would it be possible to change the interaction to allow multiple stacks to be purchased at a time. Also I think Red arrows losing their place is fine but it would be cool if they got some small tweak to give them an identity still, such as lowering their lvl req from 120 to something lower (Red and diamond both need 120) or changing the costs of each cause atm 5k of each arrow both cost 200k even with one being stronger.

 

Regarding HT hands, a decent 5-atker pt can still take 2-3 minutes after W2 to kill it, and even longer for a weaker pt. If ST ends during that window, what are buccs expected to do? I dont see any option other than spamming DS, which feels like a major downgrade.

Based on my own runs, pre-update average kill count was around 447.


My post-update average so far is around 338


Of course, this is still a small sample size and more runs are needed before drawing a firm conclusion, but that is roughly a 24–25% drop in raw mobbing performance. I agree that getting 20 bees is still doable, but I don’t think that alone fully reflects the impact of the change.

For a decently geared Bucc, getting 20 bees may still be possible by the skin of your teeth, but the drop in kill count feels significant. I would imagine this is an even bigger blow for lower-funded Buccs, where the margin for completing 20 bees are much smaller.

For context, my bucc has sufficient range for 12man VL. I use gizers until boss is finished, then stoppers all the way for bees.

With this kind of major performance drop across multiple aspects of gameplay — mobbing, control, repositioning, and overall contents — I honestly can’t blame players who are considering quitting Bucc or shelving the class for now. Even I’m starting to consider sidelining my Bucc, which is disappointing after investing this much into the class.

 

hybrid pally need HELP

 

With what you're saying, the Bucc job is dead.

At the same time, many high-level and level 200 Buccs are protesting through the megaphone.

I understand that it's something we have to get used to, but to my sadness, there are no Buccs doing Zak, Krex, or Shao anymore.

I feel really sad about what you're saying. Maybe in the second post about class balances, you'll end up nerfing Marksman like you already did with Bowmasters.

=(

 

I'm leaving the game due to bucc nerf, ik its not much of a feedback but it is my feedback

 

It was a pleasure to work with you in keeping the pepes under control.

 

I'd post my own feedback about the skill changes directly, but it dives too deep on too many different aspects of the game so I'll just bring up the communication side of it.

I love the transparency you gave for the thought process of the decision made for Buccs. I do not agree with it at all, but it's appreciated insight.

That being said, I do not understand why the change can't be reverted until Phase 2 when by your own admission, you mention that it is entirely half baked and Bucc needs additional changes later on.
Is it because it'd be unfair to the players who panic sold their gear fully predicting that the staff would double down on the decision? That just emphasizes how poorly players believe staff would listen or compromise with the community.

The majority of players feel like staff communication about the game and it's direction is extremely poor, basically doesn't exist. No remote mentions of any roadmap, game direction, updates, literally nothing. Even events, which are basically the exact same every year, aren't even announced ahead of time. Just drop stuff and everyone has to deal with it at the time, all the time. It was literally memed that the balance change would actually never come at all and was a myth.
So now when players are basically being told to WAIT for Phase 2 to MAYBE fully realize and understand such an abrupt play style change, it's absolutely infuriating. This balance change feels like it's been supposedly in the works for YEARS and apparently a 2nd one with some even more technical changes are being made with other classes involved too? How long will that one take? Are we to sit here and work with a fundamentally different, broken class for another couple years? Is there even anything planned in Phase 2 for Buccs or are you waiting for the feedback first (which means even more time taken to test changes and such)? How about the players who DO somehow adapt to this change? Will they also have to deal with a 2nd wave of crazy gameplay Bucc changes?

Is Royals supposed to be a hold down 1 button game or a multi-skill technical game? Kind of weird to make Bucc all of a sudden needs so much technicality when every other class essentially has no technical skill.

Every time a change feels controversial here is strictly because there's no communication and people are blindsided. This would be MUCH less controversial if people were aware of it was happening. The argument that it would wildly affect the economy since people could prepare for it is a poor excuse for absolutely no communication at all.