In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

I don't think classes that aren't NL and DK really care about SE, crit at all doesn't really matter since they don't have non-SE sources of crit DMG. And real SE is still a pretty big bit better, even for non-NLs (1.5x the crit rate and almost 1.5x the crit damage is a big increase), which probably wouldn't even want to buy the potion anyways as it'd ideally be somewhat expensive.

And ofc archers would need a buff with the addition of this but they need one anyways.

 

I'm strongly against the decision to limit Super Transformation and strongly opposed to the decision to take a hard stance on not reverting the change despite the feedback already provided. Originally, I was just going to quietly quit playing my Buccaneer and designate it just another mule, but this reply and break down in reasoning has me heated enough to throw in my two cents and here's why:

Drawing a line in the sand so early after making such a drastic change feels like a slap in the face. There are people advocating for both sides of the argument and I think it's healthy to have an open mind or open dialogue regarding the current state of this particular change. Shutting down the possibility of reverting the Super Transformation change before even being able to see anything outside of short term effects is just straight up disrespectful regardless of which side you take on this topic. You had seven years of open dialogue for the skill change and balance feedback thread from the community - but I guess we can't even get 7 days?

So let's get to some counterpoints:

I'm going to set aside the comparison to GMS and the 2019 changes because this is largely irrelevant. The fact is that Buccaneers have been utilizing the playstyle prior to this change for SEVEN years. Legal documents and financial records don't even last this long in some cases so why is this being quoted? If it's for props on the changes made in 2019 then you have my applause because those changes are what made the class fun to play up until this recent patch. Kudos I guess?

"We wanted Buccaneers to also return to 'limitations' with their Super Transform ability creating a sense of urgency and adjusted strategy including more of their skillset for various pieces of content, but we didn't want Super Transform to be as rough as it was before (33% up time at max level) so after consideration we opted for 75% at max level.
With this change Buccaneers will have to strategize their playstyle more making them more difficult to play and less of a one-macro-spam class. We did not want their damage output to suffer a lot, but looking at the numbers we chose I realized in a 1 target (bossing) situation a 97% damage output compared to before was reasonable and something I could revisit to make up for with other skills in Phase 2."

-More difficult to play? One button macro spam class? This feels like an argument made for Buccaneers outside of the only technically challenging boss in the entire game. Can we stop pretending anything is even remotely mechanically challenging outside of Von Leon or utilizing multi-client to solo bosses.

All I see in that paragraph is that you wanted to limit transformation simply because the pirate counterpart Corsairs have limitations on their ship? What kind of logic is this? We are going from super clunky in GMS to zero in Royals and now reverting to... 25% clunky? Just because another class?
Also why not just buff Corsairs ship instead to compensate for the other pirate class being flexible? People have been calling for ship buffs this entire time and the change could've easily have just gone that way instead making everyone happy while upsetting no one.

" The core value for both Pirates, and thus Buccaneer is 'Utility'."
-No offense to Corsairs, but can anyone expand on what utility Corsairs bring to party compositions? No shade, but I don't recall Corsairs being 100% necessary for a party composition in content? Is Shadow Partner not utility? Or Advanced Combo Attack? Are we going to impose limitations on these too now? I fear to invest in any character at this point.

"strategize their playstyle"
- In what way is 60 seconds of downtime being unable to use two of your 4th job skills a good way to inspire strategic gameplay? What other classes have this obstacle in playstyle? The Buccaneer leveling experience is already such a huge downside and now you are taking away one of the few upsides? We aren't building up transform in unique ways. There's not some alternative path or set of skills we are going to utilize while outside of Super Transformation because those were not touched. Spinning this as a way to strategize gameplay is laughable at best. The only difference is now multi client attackers are just using a different one button macro and solo client buccaneers are left to suffer for 60 seconds.

Moving on to the scenarios you outlined:

Zakum Arms/ Horntail Hands during transformation downtime.
- Just do something else? That's the logic we are going for? Just enlist other party members? More like just play another class.

Snatch downtime during LHC or VL.
- Just enlist two Buccaneers? Hero's are going to become a lock in spot for LHC from here on out leaving less flexibility for "optimal" party compositions not to mention people already favored literally any other class over Bucc for AOE damage already. This suggestion is ludicrous at best.
- VL just make sure one of them is transformed at all times to cover each other's cooldown? Any other class in the game doing this? Raise of hands? Come on man. Seriously?

Auf Haven
- Probably stays roughly the same because it's mostly about keeping Auf cornered and Time Leaping smokes/HW anyway. Whatever on this one.

It's cool to have a positive outlook on potential future changes for Buccaneer, but like others have expressed this is only cool for the community in the sense that we MIGHT get future changes at SOME POINT. Hard to take that next paragraph without a grain of salt due to the lack of transparency and communication.

The reality is we got these changes with no mitigation to the downside or draw back whatsoever. There were no improvements made to Energy Charge in the current state. No improvements to the non-transformation abilities were made. Those 60 seconds are just leaving a "Swiss Army Knife" with two less tools for seemingly no reason. What's the point of having a Swiss Army Knife if it's missing tools?

To your additional points:
No, start thinking outside of the meta you're used to and restructure your activities with other skills in your skillbook, other party members (like a second Buccaneer) and enjoy the full Buccaneer experience!
- Please explain how the current meta was changed enough to allow for second Buccaneer's in party compositions outside of Von Leon.
We didn't want to fully reset your book this time around, however I have proposed a temporary steep discount on SP resets from the cashshop to the rest of staff, we should have a decision on that soon.
- Thank you for the reduced prices, but this is still a huge pain point for anyone looking to level up a Buccaneer and I would bet my net worth of Mesos that these changes will dissuade people from playing this class.
- Yeah that makes sense, you should consider putting more SP in it but I do understand your worries and I am working on making you feel less SP starved in the earlier Buccaneer levels.
- When? SoonTM? This meme is as tired as all of our respective joints are getting.

Please revert this Super Transformation and find another way to nerf Demolition x3 macro. You surely can just add a cooldown to Demolition to prevent that spam if that was the main issue. There has to be a more elegant solution. Prior to the change I had every single skill individually mapped for Von Leon and took pride in weaving Demolition in between the small windows in his attack animations. As it stands this was taken away for 25% of my playtime and that is enough for me to stop using the class entirely.

My final point and the only real takeaway that I would like from this post is this:
- Can we please stop making changes that risk alienating the already stagnating population of this game? If a change results in some of the community full on stopping then surely it can't be considered a positive change and we can at least create a discussion about this? Let's make bossing worthwhile as well as fun. All class changes should be considered from a viewpoint of how to make a class more fun to play in a single client scenario!

To end on a positive note:
I quite liked a lot of the quality of life changes made! Big wins on the skill range changes and attack pot reworks. I truly feel that the patch would have been overall well received if it weren't for the drastic change to this one particular skill. Hero's getting a new party buff is pretty neat and will certainly shake things up a bit! Hoping we get more love for the Dark Knights, Paladins, Corsairs, and Archers/Mages in the future. Hopefully sooner rather then SoonTM.

 

Hello, Nei

That's one way of fixing, but even with that, even 1 single cast of this skill is already very powerful, it affects all ppl in the map not just in pt, bosses that get sealed become a walking duck unable to do anything besides walking, this includes end-game bosses like VL of PB. So, I have a concern of it being too strong, so skill duration and cooldown should be set carefully imo.

I kind of don't like the current method of limiting smokescreens that has 150sec cooldown, it undermines the synergy and cooperation of gameplay, someone might want to use many smokes in a row as their strat, someone might want to use many smokes in a map at the same time as their strat. The gameplay strategies shouldn't be simply limited by sth like that imo.

Also, from the direction of skills changes, staffs seem to want to prevent low-interaction gameplay like holding 1 key to spam demolitions / being completely out of dangers in smokescreen that are chained in synergy with bucc. But, even in just 1 smokescreen, isn't it already out-of-danger situation ?, this doesn't except endgame boss like VL where 1 SS totally gets you out of danger. There's hardly any ways for bosses to counter SS, even end-game boss like VL.

For that being said, I suggest making SS dispellable instead, strong endgame bosses tend to have dispel mechanic that will make SS difficult to use, that makes senses. And moreover, I suggest letting some skills of end-game bosses to bypass SS, one of the skills that probably deserves bypassing SS is Rocks from VL, also if PB comes, we might let some of its skills to be able to bypass SS too.

 

Imo PB should either have a custom SS timer that's much longer, or entirely disable the skill on the map.

This strat is exactly why smoke was nerfed, it's incredibly overpowered and homogenized party compositions too much, so staff decided they didn't want that strat to exist. I personally also don't think it should exist and isn't healthy for the game, so I support the nerf.

Look at it this way: having two archers doesn't give double SE. Having to bishops doesn't give double HS. So why should shad's support buff stack when no other classes' buffs do?

 

Hello, Sylafia

Longer or not SS map cooldown in PB or VL, still, SS will cause a substantial portion of period of time in boss-run totally out-of-danger, unless the cooldown is set so high, but that seems like undermining gameplay synergy to me.
Of course, the chained SS strat works amazingly in HT's tail and Auf, but when it comes to true end game boss like VL or PB where we can't rush to finish ?

In VL, even we have SS map cooldown to get the SSs apart, still, there will be many SS in a run anyway, isn't this already a stacking anyway ?

 

I absolutely love this idea, especially because carrot juice is good for your eyes
I also have some suggestions:
1. u can exchange 1 bee + 20 carrot (from desert rabbit) for 1 "honey carrot juice" from Cecillia since she doesn't grow carrots
2. make the juice untradable (low level character cannot use it)
3. 5min > 10min (NL can use 3 juice in RG, cost 3 bees)

add
4. 100% crit dmg 10% crit rate >> 50% crit dmg 10% crit rate (to remain SE buff for TT at+27.5% instead of +13.3%)

*Of course, the purpose of these changes is to reduce NL's reliance on SE and make it more reasonable to buff archers.

 

Just asking for my own clarity, are NLs really asking for more buffs now? I.e less reliance on SE

 

Honestly, I don't really care whether NL gets buffed or not, but I think this is the main reason why they have been so reluctant to buff archers.

 

shoutout to my NLs out there

but no, the main reason why they have been reluctant to buff archers is because none of the GMs or Staff (at least in my opinion) play archers consistently enough to know how bad it is.

the previous update (2021-2022) increased archer’s diamond arrow from +4 wa to + 10 wa (6wa buff)

this update (5 years later) increased archer’s vl arrow from +12 wa to + 24wa.

ignoring the nerfs to archers’ other skills like arrow bomb and soul arrow duration etc, it just sends the message that they don’t play archers and do not know how to “buff” it so they just give us straight wa buffs.

I mean it in the most respectful way possible that if 5 years of feedback results in “give them more wa” then its very difficult to say they played archer to know how bad it is.

give me 30mins in game with any GM that want to really make a change for archers and I’ll spoonfeed all the info they need.

But I can guarantee you the lack of buffs or existing nerfs to archers has nothing to do with NL’s reliance on se.

Its a buff on the class not a buff on se.

 

I once suggested the idea of "buffing SE, giving it higher rate/damage buffs but also adding a CD," to enable a dual-SE party playstyle — but it turned out to be infeasible because NL would become far too dominant.

Given that "stackable Rage" is now a thing, perhaps "stackable SE" could also be added rather than limiting SE with a CD.
=> But how to control the stacking ratio would need to be worked out — simply doubling it intuitively seems too strong.

 

I also want to add that having any class’s reliance on se reduced would only kill the population of SE even further.

if im a NL and I don’t require SE as much as I used to before, I’ll just add another NL to my party. I just make sure everyone of the NLs in my party are auf-ed with at least 70+ cgs and perfect gears (this is very possible and even more possible in the future with how cheap perfecting an auf has become).

Having 6NLs would be a more optimal run than 5NLs and a SE in that scenario because just count with one hand, how many archers you know that can hit 50k arrows consistently? Would that SE still play SE if his role in the party is made redundant?

Tldr: this is just going to be the current situation of Paladins. Bringing an extra shad or bucc (pre update) is going to make the HT run much faster than adding a CR. Just lose 1min during the preheads but down the main body 7-8 minutes faster by rotating what you attack.

 

Thats a good point!

so i did some simple math about 6NL VS 5NL+SE mule:

first we assume 5NL+SE mule damage = 100%*5 = 500%
when SE = +53%
6NL damage without SE = 100%/1.53*6 = 392.2%, SE mule win.

when SE = +22.4% (change crit formula as base = 100%, SE+40%)
6NL damage without SE = 100%/1.224*6 = 490.2%, SE mule win a bit.

when SE = +13.33% (carrot juice +100% crit dmage and 10% crit rate)
6NL damage without SE = 100%/1.333*6 = 529.4%, 6NL win.

Conclusion:
1. When NL's reliance on SE still higher than +20% damage, 5NL+1Archer will always better than 6NL
2. Sadly if we want a carrot juice, it shouldn't +100% crit damage and +10% crit rate.

 

We have to include information like “do we want to sit around for 30-45minutes to see if we can find a SE or should we just go with another NL that would be just as fast if not faster”

the chances of finding a geared NL is maybe 10x easier than finding a geared SE.

Your math is only correct if we are assuming the NL and SE are equally geared and calculated as 1 x 100% but I can predict even lesser people would fund or play a bowmaster if NLs become less reliant on SE

 

My math archer do 0 damage, just a mule uwu
And yes i haven't considered all the situation, for example when 2NL looking for 1NL or 1Archer, what will happen?