In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

hahahahahahahaha you got me there andrew you got me you have my vote

 

Why ppl suggesting/agree *Self-SE* (potion or any source) dont you see how that philosophy was the beginning of the end for the og MS if ppl dont know after bb patch and they add cube and there was a rare chance to get ''decent skills'' on gears (hat,cape,pants) *decent HB - decent SE - decent Haste* those skills were less powerful than the original ones but even with that ppl started to depend less of those classes.

Its a rlly bad idea give the most signature skill of the class(even with less dmg/effect) to others, whats next? SI in a bottle?
NLs dont need to be buffed they are the most op class with SE (due his evasion and single target dmg), why u guys dont get we're on a pre-BB server/MMORPG we need to encourage party bossing and give ROLES to every class

NL its a pure DPSer like Sair, and on the other hand Archers are a support class, indeed we need buffs bcz archers in general scales so bad this was discussed many years ago, how 'archers scale' arent natural and for those that want to MAIN archers, its out of love more than anything else.


*If ur a NL and ur struggling with wyverns on HT bcz they make ya punch instead throw stars, then RECRUIT a Archer/Mage that can cover ya

*If ur a Bucc and cannot control well mobs RECRUIT a warrior and have fun

*If ur a ''Support class'' or ''AoE class'' and u cant OUTDPS a Corsair/NL then RECRUIT a Corsair/NL


Pls guys keep the identity of the class, indeed we still need buffs and balance BUT please, keep this in mind

 

My bad, I forgot only NL got critical throw. Doing the math, it gives an average of 40% more damage, but even then AR is weaker scaling than Band of Thieves (1344% vs 1500%), and AR is our only real mobbing skill even in 4th job due to Dragon's Breath being so low damage. Crits, even with SE will not bring either of them up to Boomerang Step (30, 4 enemies: 2000%) standard. If I calculated correctly with SE they gain x1.77 multiplier instead of x1.4, so they would be
30 AR, 6 enemies: 960*1.77 = 1700%
30 DB, 6 enemies: 600*1.77 = 1062%
However, I shouldn't have compared them so directly, forgot that bandits don't get crits. But either way, it's important to look at what the damage ranges are for the different classes, as I'm not sure and also unable to take a look at how much impact 250 WA with 800 main stat is range-wise for shad vs bm, for instance. I don't think the numbers are 1:1, so the math can be more skewed for better or worse than the %-ages I jotted up. Hence why I'd like the devs to spend time getting comparison data to properly even out the damage (not nerfing shads, but buffing MM/BM).

 

I think before debating whether my view is right or wrong, it would help to first understand where I'm coming from rather than simply dismissing it — that doesn't make for a productive discussion.

First, let me be clear: for my first two years on Royals, my only characters were a single MM and a CR mule. I believe I have firsthand experience of the archer's situation — including low mobility, low damage, and being unwelcome in many types of content (Toad/TheBoss/HT/AUF/LHC).
"In a cooperative game, the goal should be to use different class combinations to achieve a 1+1>2 effect — not to treat every class as a DPS dispenser with different attack animations."
That is my core belief. So my suggestions for archers have always been built around identifying their unique traits and balancing around those, including:

• Dragon Breath being able to push boss monsters
• SE should benefit most classes, and even create scenarios where having 2 SE in the same party is advantageous
• Differentiating where BM and MM each excel
• Giving archers a modest DPS increase — current damage is too low. This should also involve increasing the scaling ratio of CGS effect on archer DPS, i.e. growth curve. (Just because I haven't brought something up doesn't mean I disagree with it — treating my silence as disagreement is frustrating.)

Changes to SE (or other support skills) would directly affect archers' role in parties — potentially to the point where every party would want one, similar to how SI works.

This is also why I've consistently had suggestions around SE changes, including "requiring 2 archers to achieve full-time SE", and — inspired by stackable Rage — "stackable SE (perhaps 2 SE giving 120%, 3 SE giving 130%, etc.)"

Of course, any change to SE would directly impact SE-sensitive classes like NL and DK, so any adjustment would necessarily need to account for how to rebalance NL/DK as well, along with the impact on mule-heavy playstyles. But most of the time, these discussions simply get shut down with "I disagree and I'm not giving a reason."

 

Lets be positive.

Archers only have to reposition once or twice after every mobbing skill because our avoids works about 1% of the time very well, as intended! thanks devs!

Also, our mobbing skills can easily hit 6 mobs in…. looks cool af yo!

 

I agree with you, on everything but the combo SE. Simply because I hate the potential future where every party needs two SEs for some players to be happy which might make finding groups even more annoying. But aside from that, I completely agree with you. I didn't mean to sound dismissive or call you out as incorrect, I just didn't agree with that point and wanted to lift the scaling as the core issue.

Your idea of Dragon's Breath being able to KB bosses sound freaking amazing. That is seriously cool and would feel really satisfying for a 4th job skill. Definitely gives it purpose to outweigh its absolutely horrid damage.

 

Hearing the dragons breath kb vs boss mobs suggeation a lot now. If we consider this, please, please strongly consider these caveats, we are talking about a ranged class who shouldn't be pushers or prioritized as pushers (the nl pushers was a mistake as well imo)

1. Larger mp cost
2. Only affects boss mobs at level 21
3. Only works on a % chance, 30% at max
4. Only works on mobs your level or below

 

I am a new player to Royals and started just 2 weeks ago and chose BM as my first character because it's what I played back in GMS. I'm only about level 75 now so not at the point of end game content quite yet, but I've quickly learned that this class is bottom tier in this server, especially if you are new like me with limited funding. I started with a group of my friends as well and we all chose different classes and I'm constantly getting out-damaged and lack any sort of mobility/survivability.

Characters like thieves and mages get the ability to reposition quickly using teleport and flash jump while we get nothing. Yes, characters like pirates and warriors don't get that other but that either but they don't need to reposition to attack their enemies. I literally have to whack enemies with my bow or walk away from them while they chase me or pray to god my power knockback actually works and knocks the enemies away to be able to shoot my arrows when a thief who also needs to be away from enemies can just flash jump away. Thieves get haste as well so they get both the ability to flash jump away and just quicker movement overall.

We also just get way worse mobbing overall compared to other characters like thieves and to top it off the devs nerfed Hunter's arrow bomb for some reason. How is it possible that I was a hunter, who was only around level 50 when the skill changes came out, and I logged back in and did less damage than I was before and I was already considered a weak class. If you wanted to bring arrow bomb in line with the higher job skills, you should be buffing the higher job skills.

I already knew about the HP issues when I joined this server, but I had heard lots of things about the "no HP washing required" rule but then I have people telling me it would take actual months/years to actually get to a point where I can do end game content without washing. Then, I try and do some of the Olaf quests and there are literally guys camping the channels for the area bosses so I can't even complete the quests (this is a separate issue, just venting). I know thieves also have issues with HP but at least they get the damage output to go with it. I see a ton of posts/people saying they even re-make characters so they can get the required HP through washing. I'm a casual player who just wants to play after work and on the weekends and I don't have time to remake characters like that.

I still enjoy the game for what it is and all but sometimes I wonder if I should have made a different character to start off because it seems like the only way to enjoy being a bowmaster would be if this was my 2nd or 3rd character after having large amounts of funding to wash and get proper gear to maybe TRY to keep up with the other classes.

 

Note that the nerf of Arrow Bomb is only the interaction specifically with Sharp Eyes in 4th jobb. It doesn't impact the damage before then. But the point still stands, stupid nerf for no reason tbh. Although I'd prefer them to just buff the damage scaling overall and keep the nerf, but make it deal higher damage overall anyway. Or at least comparable to now.

I will also repeat that they should make washing actually optional, I heard it was optional as well at first and was in for a surprise that nearly made me quit as well. Just make Reuel's not a daily and just always repeatable ffs.

 

Critical shot?

 

I thought the problem was the stacking of crits on it, not the initial crits in the calculation. If to then I stand corrected and must have misread

 

Big fan of the hero changes. Not exactly the direction I thought but just a great adjustment. Unfortunately I already hit 200 and don't plan to continue that character.

Confused by the treatment of Bucc. I am calling it the Bucc Big Bang. I just made mine (I made two and duo them) and I basically don't want to play them anymore. You basically gave it the 'ol Nexon treatment: completely alter why I played a class in the first place. Idk what it looked like pre-new-source but considering it has been 100% uptime on transformation for 7 years, I have to fully agree with the people saying it is a slap in the face. That being said, Bucc does need a nerf, but probably just directly to the damage is the best way. They also got a technical nerf on the smokescreen change, which is also poorly implemented in my opinion but that is a different topic.

 

This is incorrect. You are actually the equivalent of a modern GMS player who is complaining that their class lost the ability to flash jump, screen nuke, and solo bosses in the transition to Classic World. Obviously the 2019-2026 Royals version of bucc was less extreme than that, but it was still an easy-to-play dual support+DPS class with basically no disadvantages, which would inevitably draw in people with the same mindset as modern GMS players.

 

Appreciate the Hero changes, but would like to remind that due to the buffs being in the form of increasing the available weapon attack (through Enrage and Rage skills), 2H-swords have gained around a 2 ~ 2.5% damage advantage over 1H-swords (and also axes) due to the weapon multipliers.

I would like to suggest doing some balancing between weapon types to restore the relative damage output %. 1H and 2H have their pros and cons, but now the damage gap between 2H and 1H has widened even further (inadvertently?) due to this update.

 

Trust me if that happens they would nerf 2h-sword and not buff 1h-sword cuz hero is good enough as it’s right now.

 

Hard to relate, I haven't played GMS in more than 15 years. In any case you yourself say it is less extreme than whatever your example means. Point is, I made two buccs based on what it was for more than half the life of the server and then they changed it to make it unplayable for my purposes. It is completely reasonable to be upset, particularly at the response "we are changing it and no, we won't listen to your opinion on it, it's done so suck it"

 

Hello,

From my earlier comment, I said that I prefer bucc's ST cooldown to be 5mins, so 3mins ST up and 2mins ST off. But for now, I think I like it to be 3mins ST up and 3mins ST off more, so 3mins where identity is shown.

Because of that being said, I suggest increase Demolition's dmg and Dragon strike's dmg to compensate, but probably leave Barrage's and Snatch's dmg the same, this will compensate dps loss and improve AOE dmg when off-ST where snatch is unavailable and will make ST period more special.

 

From patch notes:

So from what I understand, even without SE (which Hunters obviously don't have) it was a nerf of about 30% total damage. As far as I'm aware (and correct me if I'm wrong pro BM players), this was more intended to be a nerf to BMs because they were preferring to use arrow bomb over any other skill for mobbing when SE is active, but it hit 2nd job Hunters as well. You can argue that the crit calculation was always supposed to be this way, but in my opinion when a server is as mature as Royals should be at 10 years of being active, we should have more than enough data to show that even with the arrow bomb cheese that was going on with high level BMs, they are still severely lacking in mobbing capability and then also lose out in single target (which was supposed to be their strength). So again, I feel like it was a bad nerf and instead the 3rd and 4th job skills Arrow Rain and Inferno should have been buffed instead.

 

I still find it difficult to fully agree with "scaling as the core" as the central design philosophy — I personally lean more toward "cooperation as the core." This is largely because I'd hate to see class selection become nothing more than choosing an attack animation in a pure DPS comparison.

On scaling vs. cooperation:

• That said, I want to be clear that this doesn't mean I oppose scaling adjustments. When archers suffer from a scaling curve that makes them "approachable to party with early on because the gap isn't obvious, but increasingly left behind late game as the gap widens," improving their support capabilities alone won't be enough — people will still tend to look past archers when building parties.
• So even after support capabilities are improved, archers' damage output and scaling curve would still benefit from a meaningful buff — at minimum, sitting always slightly ahead of DK/Hero in single-target scenarios.
• The idea of needing multiple different classes to satisfy certain party compositions — isn't that already the spirit behind this patch, with the Smoke nerf and stackable Rage addition? We've spent 7 full years in a 5 Shad/1 Bucc or 4 Shad/2 Bucc environment. After Hero's Rage change and DK's Stance (?) change, perhaps every party in the future will want 1 SI + 1 Rage + 1 DK for an optimal setup — and isn't that exactly the goal of a cooperative game? Making archers a hybrid support-attacker role similar to DK/Hero doesn't seem like a bad outcome to me. Though I'd also be curious — should archers instead become another pure damage class?
• This is also the underlying purpose of what I've always called "reinforcing class identity" — enabling diverse party compositions to tackle a variety of content, rather than nudging everything toward "DPS machines with different animations."
• Navigating trade-offs in party recruitment is part of the MMO experience. In Zak, some parties can't accept missing Echo/SI/SE/MW20, others are fine without SE/Echo/MW20, and more casual groups can even go without SI. This shows that the concern about "non-optimal compositions making it hard to get started" already exists before any SE changes. So I'm not sure why modifying SE would suddenly cause all parties to chase optimal composition at all costs — that scenario really only becomes likely if SE is overbuffed to the point where its DPS contribution exceeds SI's 15%(Considering the stacking of multiple skills, the number is meybe 5%~10% rather than 15%, but certainly not the current under-3%.).
  
  When there are enough support skills (SI/SE/Rage/Stance/Smoke/HSH), each with its own strengths and weaknesses and roughly comparable buffs, the question of "whether a party pushes for the perfect setup or makes trade-offs and just plays" is a part of a cooperative MMO.
  
  I think "Focusing exclusively on DPS-based changes." is far closer to the post-BB design philosophy of erasing all class identity.

 

just make Demolition unable to macro just like Corkscrew.
there, you killed multiclienting macro spam.