In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

Giving us a reason to use Concentrate, making Dragon's Breath knock us back for quick mobility (like dodging falling rocks quickly whilst also helping with mob control), and upping our scaling would be a great step in the right direction. The avoidability would be a nice addition, but I think adding some actual mobility (and maybe make Thrust go past speed cap or something, at least momentarily) is just as important if not more so.
Some but worse mobility than NL, similar but worse damage than NL, making up for it by having crowd control and utilities to help the other attackers deal with the big boss. Like, when we don't have to we do okay damage. But if ANYONE is to control mobs and clear the way for the other DPS to do their thing, that's our job. As soon as the minions or whatever are clear, we can go back to DPSing and still being "okay". Instead of basically useless. That's my vision at least, dunno how applicable it could be.

 

If it's that big a fear that it makes game development slower, more cumbersome or difficult to do, couldn't they just make it against the rules to force any form of confirming DPS with target dummies? Like making it a bannable offense to kick people fromcontent for not posting screen shots on outside platforms etc.? I don't understand either why they are scared of something they can prevent.

 

With VL mage pots dropping pretty frequently there might be enough supply, certainly enough that it shouldn't get a preemptive drop increase. But the issue is, I did the math and a VL pot boosts mage damage by LESS than an apple boosts shad damage (and shads are one of the highest WA classes, meaning they get a lower damage boost from apples than say NLs).

So not only do mages not have a gelt/demon equivalent if they need burst DMG for a failing run, they also don't even have a proper apple equivalent.

 

You have the ability to make Shiny Onyx Apples during Valentines Event that I think gives 210 TMA? the issue is that iirc they require like 2 onyx apples to craft one or something like that. IDK if that 210tma could be taken from there and applied to regular Onyx Apples because I honestly never use Magic attack pots outside of cheese. The effort just isn't worth it for what u get out of em.

Outside of shifting around some MA values on attack pots I honestly think the only other thing that can be done is a damage formula overhaul for the other Mage skills except Gen/Blizz/Meteor.
Magic Attack should probably be a bit more impactful on the dmg formula than INT? Might be too labour intensive to do though.

 

If Backspin Blow and Corkscrew could be used smoothly in succession while hitting 6 targets, it could partially compensate for losing Snatch — but there are still some issues that need to be resolved:

• The "Stunned" state after these two skills makes chaining them together very difficult.
• The damage is far lower than Snatch, and the attack range is also much smaller.
• The issue of DS's high damage making ST and non-ST AoE DPS roughly equal still needs to be addressed.
• In specific scenarios — like LHC Golem — losing Snatch has an especially large impact, and these two skills can't serve as a substitute here. Since Snatch can easily pull mobs from the middle and lower-left platforms, and its mob-pull priority seems higher than Rush and Magnet (though I'm not sure why).
• In terms of fluidity and damage output, pre-transformation: Shockwave (with adjusted animation speed) + Snatch and post-transformation: DS + Snatch still feels significantly better to play.

 

• VL mage pots/cheese already provide a +220 M.ATT effect, and the supply is quite substantial.

• But what @Sylafia likely means is that the percentage damage boost VL mage pots give to mages is similar to the percentage boost regular attackers get from Apples.

• However, in emergency situations, regular attackers can further use Gelt (+120 W.ATT) or VL WA pots (+140 W.ATT) to cover mistakes — mages don't have that option.

• My thought is to introduce a +260 M.ATT / +300 M.ATT pot to correspond to Gelt and VL WA pots — this might be a simpler approach than modifying formulas, though the 1999 M.ATT cap would need to be considered as it limits the effective ceiling of any potion.

 

That's not entirely true when you look at mobbing. They have weaker mobbing already in Corkscrew Punch and Backspin Blow. Yes, snatch is a monster magnet and not a rush-type move. However, this doesn't solve the issue because Shockwave isn't just a weaker Dragonstrike; it's only possible within a transformed state. This again clashes with the philosophy of staying off the other transformation while waiting for ST.
Also, I think it's worth expanding the framing a bit, because it isn't non-ST and ST mode right now. You have to calc bubble into the mix as one of the states. Right now you have non-ST, ST, non-ST + bubble and ST with bubble. It is part of the gameplay loop.
What I'm guessing is that, for now, Tim wants us to use shockwave between the bubble downtime after ST ends to build it back up. He also didn't want us using the other transform just to fill up that minute and go back to ST.



* These were tested with a DSC equipped while under Knuckle Booster + Speed Infusion.
** This was recorded with gameplay footage, so there may be something hidden in data i don't know about.

- While not in ST your best option is to literally spam DS and mob monsters together with any of your skills.
- When in bubble DS - Blast is your best damage option and you mob normally with any of your skills.
- While in ST you Snatch - DS, however when there's 4 mobs and you have your bubble up you Snatch to mob, but then DS - Blast is the stronger option DPS wise.

* - Spamming blast is nearly never the way.

I don't think swapping DS with Snatch would fix this issue. Looking at the data I recorded Shockwave is so fucking hot dookie, like the kind of dookie you get after food poisoning. They would need to buff the shit out of that move to make it viable. The idea of it being a 2nd AOE that you can use outside of bubble to fill your bubble charge together with DS sounds nice on paper, but the only use it has right now is to animation cancel out of it into DS. You're better off just spamming DS.

But to come back to the main issue and where i agree with you is to fix the range of blast + either have control of when bubble gets activated or have the charge rate be even faster.

And why should the class need more of an output gap if the main things you gain with ST is utility and slight damage?
This suggestion would necessitate buffs and nerfs to multiple skills and I'm not sure if that counts as a overhaul. Tim didn't want to do an overhaul if possible.

 

I'm against the dummy bc the meta culture is already toxic in its gear fixation and att stat obsession, but that's bc there is a power creep in almost every update since I started in 2019, making the accessibility of att pots, or new gear or scrolls to keep pushing numbers up

So its fairly oblivious to say when you both play and develop, and socialize in and out of the game, to say you dont want to reinforce that culture, like elite toxic range ocd culture, [and is also why i never, ever wanted rage or enrage to stack with the already ubiquitous and mandatory att pot boss meta]--it already exists, and is what keeps the economy churning. or being against player casinos, when gacha and scrolling are also just gambling2win and also keep the economy churning, or voting for nx to wash, which everyone is sick of collectively (we patch bugs all the time but not this v lucrative one) bc its tied into the voting (site visibility and relevance) and also churns the economy

so despite my many reasons I'm personally against the dummy, saying that it would make toxic elitism is worse is wildly oblivious to the culture you are shaping here while we are also heavy handedly making range and att bro culture worse with this extremely uninspired hero buff which i can already tell isn't even going to be discussed or rolled back, much less considered, bc it is both a new range plateau [power creep] and a party skill, and unfortunately a popular request [doesn't make it the right choice tho lol]

let's not forget that mw30 will come with pb, along with new weapons. you keep raising the plateau, and it also trivializes older content, which also makes the range meta even worse for new players or new characters in those new power crept plateaus. many of these skill updates are not looking down the road.

buccs just needed to do a bit less damage overall bc of their two huge party skills and insane dps, they were overturned, it wasnt bc transform or snatch.

you dont wanna see smegas that say show your dps stats, but, now run smegas will say must have rage/enrage mule. BTW rage is an almost zero effort att buff now, it's not remotely considered that it has no downsides and is so exploitable for mules, the accuracy drop should probably be sharper, or, have a acc drop caveat towards monsters above your level with rage *and* enrage to reduce exploitation, and a flat accuracy drop that doesn't factor dex, like a flat -10% acc drop universally if below mob level, since it would impact warriors/buccs and not any other non-mage class as much. these sort of things should be considered, rage/enrage being stackable is a new power creep threshold, and again, mw30 is coming, along w/ likely more weapons and equipment, perhaps even slots, and ofc new scrolls, raising the bars higher and higher. this matters as I said bc these new metas will trivialize lower content, and this will benefit the geared and funded unequally for a long time before prices attenuate and new items become more common, but in that interim, the range toxicity normalizes. its why I always caution and suggest literally anything before just giving out more and more free attack buffs, no classes need that to improve them, there's infinitely more creative and healthy ways to improve them all that benefits the classes, their identity, and long term health and cohesion

all that to say, the reasoning to not just let folks track their damage while also just handing out huge w.att stacks feels oblivious and shortsighted, and also why we should probably have some phase 1, and phase 2 threads to parse this out, while keeping this thread a general suggestion feedback thread

 

Some more various thoughts on Archers:

================

Repeating/refining some of my favourite QoL ideas:
1. Focus gives temporary stance with a CD.
2. Passive Avoid added to Thrust in addition to the Speed?
3. PKB and/or DB can push boss mobs.
4. Increased Puppet duration.

I hope these ones or things like them get priority. They'd help make the class more comfy to play at least, which makes a huge difference.

===============

Another big issue that Saledor mentioned already is the HP washing meta, which harms archers the most out of anyone. Someone might be more willing to spend 10b+ washing or doing 6 months of HP quests if they're getting the top tier damage of a Sair or NL in the end, but who thinks it's a fair trade to have to do that just to make an archer playable? New players who are considering a support class are being funneled towards Bucc or maybe Hero now instead, and people just make bloodwashed SE mules, leaving few actual dedicated archer mains. Less role model archer mains out there who take their class seriously means the entire community stops taking us seriously and we have to fight against over-exaggerations/misconceptions about our class that are even worse than the reality of the class itself. It all starts with this HP washing problem that prevents more cute little archer main babies from ever being born Suggestions to improve this:
1. Greatly buff Reuel and especially RG hp pots.
2. Adjust APR +HP formula for archers to give us much more per APR so washing is much cheaper.

================

When it comes to DPS changes, while I agree something should be done I'm not sure on the specifics. It's tricky to balance not just against other classes, but especially between the two archers themselves (BM vs MM).

BMs maybe want improvements to their multi target, but do too much here and it makes MM obsolete. MMs maybe think they should be more rewarded for having to rely so heavily on SI and manually timing all their button presses (strafe+snipe, PA charge-up), but if their single target ever becomes equal or better than BM, what's the point of BM? Further specializing MM into multi target is also meaningless unless done in a way that allows it to be used in more varied content. Further specializing BM into single target would put them too far ahead of MM because single target is more valuable to us for that same reason.

so.... I don't know lol It's tough. Kinda like the DrK + Hero thing but worse

Some what-if thoughts:
1. Would removing/reducing SI dependency for MM help make them more straightforward to balance against BM?
2. What if one of the mobbing skills like Arrow Eruption or Arrow Rain was optimized for 3-4 targets instead of 6? I'm not sure which class you'd do this to:
a) Give it to MM. They become even more flexible mobbers. BMs can become even more specialized on single target.
b) Give it to BM. They become strong at 1-4 targets. MM remains better at 4-6. You'd have to then make MM's single target stronger than BMs?
3. If you just give both classes increased crit chance across the board, is that an equal buff to both? It might still favour one over the other (probably BMs?).

 

Please add DB getting some mobility backwards. That would make my week.

With that aside, thank you for compiling the thoughts. Your points about HP-washing are on point, since I have no movement I have to tank everything all the time and it hurts. Literally lol.

About the balancing between MM and BM, there's no real issue with them being kinda on equal footing, with some things being better for either. It's okay if they're similarly strong but have their skills that function differently meaning different playstyles. I really like the look and feel of BM, but I know some that prefer how MM works. Both are valid, but sadly both are way too low in damage and utility all across the board and just need some reworking to make work.

I talked with a MM friend today and it was fun to vent with someone who knows the struggles. I think it often goes unspoken but archers are in such a bad spot that people often seem to quit rather than grind to get funded enough to compete. And I mean, why wouldn't we, when people can in most cases just make SE mules that serve the same function? Especially with NL getting buffed and getting the utility we should have, whilst one of our CORE 4th job mobbing and crowd control skills is so bugged it's not even usable. If you nerf us in the name of bugfixing, why doesn't DB work properly? Just food for thought. I'm just a bit bitter, and scared about what the future might have in store for me and my BM main adventures.

 

If it's this desirable by so many players it makes it S tier empirically. You don't need to guess if it's good or not, the evidence that it's really good (it unlocks the potential of your most fun highest damage character) is the amount of SE mules you have.
You wanna claim that SE, and Pheonix / Frostprey, puppet, and hamstring shot / blind are not S tier utility package, fine, you tell me what tier is it.

I want to reinstate that I'm not against buffing the damage of SE, I'm against power creeping where this class becoming OP damage with OP utility.

I also have a suggestion for soul arrow. Make it a cooldown ability that would give you "free" arrows of the highest tier. For example, when it is maxed, you get 2 minutes of infinite arrows of +24 att (the royal quiver). It's on cooldown for 6 minutes. Why I think it's good, first of all, it keeps the Soul Arrow's nature. Secondly, it buffs early Archer gameplay (levels 50~180), and late Archers benefit from some economic relief (because recharging quiver is expensive). If you want, you could make it on cooldown of like 8 minutes, but give it like +28 att arrows, this would also buff the late game archers. And if that's all the buff they get +24 att on perfect quiver +28 attack for 2 minutes every 10 minutes, I think it would put them in a place where they get damage buff but it won't break them.

 

I don't know if you've ever played archer but that change wouldn't work, as the whole point of Soul Arrow is to allow you to use MP instead of arrows, with the tradeoff being you miss out on whatever bonus damage the arrow would be giving you. What you are describing is already what Concentrate is. Which also doesn't stack with attack potions, which is why it's never used or considered a buff to damage. It would also cost MORE meso in the long run since every level until Quivers become available (which are intensely pricey now) would require you to have an inventory full of arrows. It would instead of being a backup "oh crap I ran out of arrows" skill it'd lock you out of any actions should your arrows deplete.

I don't understand where you are getting your numbers from. All archers are severely flawed in both damage and utility. Dragon's Breath doesn't even function properly, it's been bugged for a long time according to my archer friends, yo-yoing and barely able to knockback anything. On top of the fact that NL get the utility we're supposed to have (KBing bosses), with no drawbacks, and instead get a buff where we get a nerf. It's really frustrating, because what allows NL to get such a high damage multiplier with SE is the exact same math that was "bugfixed" with Arrow Bomb (if I understand correctly). I do not understand where you think archers (that need 10x the funding as NL to stay relevant) are having OP damage, and I do not understand the OP utility aspect you speak of. SE is not a utility skill. It is a party buff. It doesn't change the way a party or player approaches content, it simply shortens the kill timer. Stop saying it is, you are factually incorrect.

Archers have literally no mobility. Thrust, the only mobility skill, gives +30 Speed at level 20. That's it. Yet we constantly have to reposition to use our attacks, recast Puppet once a minute (especially annoying when the positioning has to be perfect), our biggest utility skill doesn't work, and on top of it both BM and MM have terrible damage in their given niches. And you argue that you would rather this be the case, people quitting and a class having no mains as its only players are mules is okay, because "it has a strong party buff that everybody wants".

Imagine BM/MM without SE. What then? Who would run with us? It's important to put focus on the shortcomings and stop simply looking at how SE interacts with NL damage. Archers can't be kept down as the worst attackers in the game simply because we have a skill that makes another class stay at the top, it's wrong. I've grinded through 111 levels on my own (with the occasional 1-level help) with my terrible moveset to push through, just like any unfunded Sair or NL has, only to be met with the worst damage and the most expensive build. I'm basically venting at this point, but I'm getting progressively frustrated with your replies. It feels like you don't take our points into consideration and have a skewed/faulty idea of what our class is like to play, I apologise for my tone.

 

This is what I meant, except that VL pots are WORSE for mages than apples are for attackers (~30% vs ~50% final damage for my bish on VL/cheese and shad on appo, respectively)

 

I was just informed about why the mobs are so erratic and inconsistent in their behaviour when aggro'd. This is part of why no mobility makes Archers so annoying to play, as well as makes puppet nearly useless as enemies just completely ignore it. And why having a mobility skill like DB recoil would help so much.

Seriously, I thought it was just bugs that enemies ignored my puppet, but apparently it's intended behaviour. Things make a lot more sense to me now. Even if that change would be reverted I still think archers would benefit from the changes we've discussed here.

 

hi.



First of all, I do not appreciate the "I don't know if you ever played archer class". Why are you trying to poison the well instead of addressing my points. Look at the age of my account, I play this game a decade more than you. I play ALL classes, I have one of each, and let me tell you the truth about BM. It's ABSOLUTELY OP. Yes you guys will hate me all the new players who want to power creep archers, but the fact that I can attack with my laptop, holding 1 button in stationary bosses, while attacking from my PC with my NL is absolutely insane I essentially can SOLO any boss if I suicide with the archer right before it dies I can just take the exp with whoever I want. The utility of the Archer, and the way it attack works allows me to SOLO any content (except for the end game VL because of time limitation, and HT because I don't want to spend 2 hours on 1 boss) with 2 of my many characters for the price of ~4 apples 20~25 minutes run. I've never struggled to find a party doing any content even though my range is "weak" (I don't even have a good weapon just a 131 bow), not HT, not CWKPQ. No one ever expected me to white line NLs. I'm expected to stay alive, and provide my utility to the party (and obviously take an attack potion because no one like a slacker which is legitimate.

If you are "too weak" on your archer, you would certainly be too weak on any class. If you can't find a party to do content with your archer, you won't find it on any class.

The difference between my soul arrows suggestion and concentrate. AS YOU SAID concentrate does not stack with attack potions, and concentrate does not provide infinite ammo for the duration. I know you want the soul arrow to give +1000 attack, revive players and give stance (which is basically very good for people who want to attack from their laptop and their pc, and not readjust or reposition giving them more up time), but I care about the game, and I can tell at what point a game becomes stupid.

My point is, BM has strong utility, it is VERY useful.... it does not need a buff, since you play this game for 3 months, it's okay to feel weak you are not supposed to be able to solo bosses 3 months into the game, and tell your archer friends to join the discussion and don't be a delegate.

About the whole HP debate. Guys... do reuel's questline... it's 2-3 months daily and you get +2-3k HP on top of whatever u have.... if you do it for 5-6 months it gets to ~5k extra HP, and again this game is about the grind you are not supposed to start a new character and go VL.